Tomix and DCC

[Martijn Meerts]

Considering many of us have had issues with running Tomix on DCC, I started thinking a bit what could cause the problems. I've had both good and bad experiences myself, my Tomix DD51 runs just fine with a Lenz Gold Mini DCC decoder. However, a Tomix EF510 which I converted for my father has already seen 2 fried decoders and now a fried motor.

Personally, I can't imagine that Tomix trains cannot be run on DCC, it just makes no sense. The motors Tomix uses seem to be pretty much the same as any other brand uses (and not just the Japanese brands either), and there's nothing that I can think of that could cause the issues.

That is, until I just saw Cap mention Tomix's Constant Lighting system. Is there a remote possibility that Tomix trains have some sort of additional bits and pieces to make Constant lighting work. Would that affect how the motor functions and possibly cause a DCC signal to mess up the motor? I really don't know if it has anything to do with it, but as far as I can see, the Constant Lighting is the *ONLY* feature Tomix has that no other manufacturer (I think) has, and as far as I know, not all rolling stock is compatible with the Constant Lighting system (hence the CL icon in the Tomix catalog).

Food for thought?

[CaptOblivious]

A good thought, but I think we've been down this road before. I've heard tell (I don't have a source handy, nor a CL throttle of my own—could someone check?) that some Kato trains will light just like the Tomix ones on a CL throttle—yet the Kato models don't seem to have problems with DCC. Which suggests maybe CL is a red herring. But, I'm not gonna shut any doors just yet, because CL is still the best candidate for explaining these failures.

So, that said. If I understand, any specialized circuitry for the CL system is in the lightboards—I certainly don't see anything in any of my Tomix motors besides the motor, nor in any of my Kato motors. But I have seen some pretty wacky lightboards—lightboards with more than just some diodes and resistors—in some of Tomix stock.

So, the CL hypothesis predicts that decoder failures will occur in models with CL lightboards. For example, my DE10 does not have CL lightboards (those are an after-market option), and indeed the DE10 runs pretty well with no failures (that weren't my fault). So far, anyway. When I finish converting my EF81, I will have replaced the lightboards entirely, so that would be a good test case too. However, the Yumekukan OSHI-901 I will soon convert with a function decoder clearly has a CL circuit—prediction: It should fail. I haven't gotten a decoder for it yet, though.

What about readers' failed units? Has anyone had a failure in, e.g. the motor car of an MU, where there are no lights?

[Martijn Meerts]

My DD51 has CL actually, but I haven't run it long/often enough for it to be a good test case. All in all it had maybe 2 hours worth of driving.

The thing is, there has to be some reason why Tomix trains are being problematic, would be nice if we could figure out what that reason is considering many of us have quite a few Tomix items =)

[CaptOblivious]

Martijn: I presume you used a Lenz decoder in the DD51? An alternative to the CL hypothesis is that people are having bad luck with a particular brand or model, and that the failures just coincidentally happen to be in Tomix models.

I think, as a first step, it would be good to collect the details of instances of decoder failure. (Now I am channeling Francis Bacon…)

[Martijn Meerts]

The DD51 has a Lenz Gold Mini yes.

The EF510 has fried 2 Trix Selectrix decoders and a motor.

I also have an EF65 with the same decoder as the EF510, but that one hasn't run much.

[Bernard]

Great discussion guys! I hope you can come up with some solution because Digitrax has got to be tired of me sending back blown decoders.

[quinntopia]

How do the Micro Ace DCC conversions go?  I don't see them mentioned as much, but they have a pretty substantial catalog it seems.

[Martijn Meerts]

I've converted 2 Micro Ace so far, both with a Selectrix decoder. They run on my father's layout, and have been running fine for many months.

[Bernard]

I'll second Martijn's account on MicroAce. I did it with a Digitrax DZ123 decoder and it's strait forward. I haven't had any problems with that train. I have had problems with the Tomix trains.

I hope Mrpig, aka Gordon, joins in the thread, he has been successful with his Tomix train conversions.

[bill937ca]

My notes from various sources. 

Tomix's constant lighting (CL) overlays HFAC (High frequency AC--which is different than AC) on top of the DC power to the rails. You may have trouble with DCC if the decoder thinks the HFAC is a DCC signal and tries to figure it out.  Which exposes the decoder to the risk of damage and or burnout.

This works fine with the 3-pole open frame motors Tomix uses (and Pro Z uses too.)

[Martijn Meerts]

My notes from various sources. 

Tomix's constant lighting (CL) overlays HFAC (High frequency AC--which is different than AC) on top of the DC power to the rails. You may have trouble with DCC if the decoder thinks the HFAC is a DCC signal and tries to figure it out.  Which exposes the decoder to the risk of damage and or burnout.

This works fine with the 3-pole open frame motors Tomix uses (and Pro Z uses too.)

But the HFAC signal is only overlayed when using a Tomix powerpack that supports CL I believe. Which would mean that if you use a DCC powerpack, the HFAC signal wouldn't exist.

What I was wondering is if there is something that Tomix did with the motor to filter out this HFAC signal, and which affects the DCC signal to the motor somehow as well (DCC signal to the motor is high frequency as well). It's rather unlikely though, since you don't really see any difference in motors between Tomix, Kato, MicroAce and even newer Minitrix, Fleischmann, Arnold etc.

[alpineaustralia]

I have had problems with both the 300 series and the Dr Yellow.
The 300 runs but I need to crank the motor up to step 5 or 6 to start it turning whereas the Dr Yellow just doesnt work at all.

It seems to me that the motor has trouble gettting started and at the first sign of trouble stop.

I have thought about this at length - after all, I have $400 of trains sitting there doing nothing on the tracks. I have three observations:

1. The Tomix motors come with a capacitor which we remove when we install DCC whereas Kato motors do not. This must mean something. My theory is that the capacitor is used to store up enough power to proved a initial "pulse" to start the motor turning and possibly to keep it turning.

2. When I have the motor free running ( i.e disconnected from the gears and drive shaft) it runs easily. The problems start when it is has a "load".

3. The Tomix motors dont have a flywheel and so that tend to stop instantly whereas the flywheel will keep the momentum up enough to keep the Kato motor running.

On this basis, I must disagree with Martijn's base premise that the motor are the effectively the same. In my opinion, the motor are different and require more power than the DZ Digitrax decoders will output.  I am not sure what power the Lenz decoders otuput. 

[CaptOblivious]

The capacitor is telling…it might also be used to filter and smoother the HFAC CL signal, so the motor gets a smooth DC signal. In which case, you might be right that the Tomix motors don't respond well to the pulse-width-modulation (PWM) signal they get from a decoder. In which case, the capacitor should be left in during an install, but not for the reasons you mentioned… hrm, food for thought?

Interesting, my EF81 doesn't have a capacitor on its motor, nor did the DE10.

I think you are on to something here, Alpine…

I have had problems with both the 300 series and the Dr Yellow.
The 300 runs but I need to crank the motor up to step 5 or 6 to start it turning whereas the Dr Yellow just doesnt work at all.

It seems to me that the motor has trouble gettting started and at the first sign of trouble stop.

I have thought about this at length - after all, I have $400 of trains sitting there doing nothing on the tracks. I have three observations:

1. The Tomix motors come with a capacitor which we remove when we install DCC whereas Kato motors do not. This must mean something. My theory is that the capacitor is used to store up enough power to proved a initial "pulse" to start the motor turning and possibly to keep it turning.

2. When I have the motor free running ( i.e disconnected from the gears and drive shaft) it runs easily. The problems start when it is has a "load".

3. The Tomix motors dont have a flywheel and so that tend to stop instantly whereas the flywheel will keep the momentum up enough to keep the Kato motor running.

On this basis, I must disagree with Martijn's base premise that the motor are the effectively the same. In my opinion, the motor are different and require more power than the DZ Digitrax decoders will output.  I am not sure what power the Lenz decoders otuput. 

[Martijn Meerts]

Most Minitrix, Fleischmann etc. have a capacitor as well. I believe it's mainly there to remove any possible interferences on other equipment. Kinda like a lot of connection tracks (the ones where you hook up the regular transformer) have a capacitor as well.

With the European brands, the capacitors are usually removed. Older decoders specifically stated you HAVE to remove the capacitors, modern decoders don't seem to mention them at all..

That said, I believe I have Tomix trains that have a capacitor, but I also have some without capacitor. Some of those without capacitor are still marked as "CL" ..

Will need to look at it a bit more closely. With a bit of luck I'll have a bit of space soon-ish, I've started sorting out various things and packing them into boxes. 1 way or another I'll be moving in the next 3-4 months.

[Sushi Train]

Excuse my ignorance please, all this DCC stuff is over my head  :-[ especially installing decoders, one question, when I build my layout is it worth to set it up as DCC at time of building or can I do this later once its finished and running (DC) without too much trouble? also, as tomix is a problem, what do you do with say the Dr Yellow or 300 that cant run properly? can they be run on your layouts as DC, is it switchable?

Thanks  :)

[Bernard]

Jansen - I am going to start a new thread called, "DCC: Is it for me?" And pose questions there about what's involved in going DCC.

[Sushi Train]

Jansen - I am going to start a new thread called, "DCC: Is it for me?" And pose questions there about what's involved in going DCC.

Gee you're full of great ideas!  8)

[Martijn Meerts]

Excuse my ignorance please, all this DCC stuff is over my head  :-[ especially installing decoders, one question, when I build my layout is it worth to set it up as DCC at time of building or can I do this later once its finished and running (DC) without too much trouble? also, as tomix is a problem, what do you do with say the Dr Yellow or 300 that cant run properly? can they be run on your layouts as DC, is it switchable?

Thanks  :)

It depends on various things. If you build a layout now, you can always convert it to DCC. In its basic form, you only need to replace the transformer with a DCC command station, and install decoders in each of the locomotives. Most DCC command stations also allow you to run 1 non-DCC locomotive, but I can't recommend doing so.

If, on the other hand, you want to automate all or parts of the layout, or if you want to use a computer to control trains, you'll need a LOT more equipment, and the amount of wiring required is quite staggering =)

I made a few posts about basic computer control and how certain things work. They can be found here:

Chapter 1: http://www.jnsforum.com/index.php/topic,370.0.html
Chapter 2: http://www.jnsforum.com/index.php/topic,372.0.html
Chapter 3: http://www.jnsforum.com/index.php/topic,403.0.html


The video I link to in chapter 1 is especially a good indication of what's possible with DCC and computer control. The trains in the video are all automated, they accelerate and decelerate smoothly, certain trains don't need to stop at the station (express, freight), some stop occasionally. The period they stop can be randomized as well, etc.

[Sushi Train]

Excuse my ignorance please, all this DCC stuff is over my head  :-[ especially installing decoders, one question, when I build my layout is it worth to set it up as DCC at time of building or can I do this later once its finished and running (DC) without too much trouble? also, as tomix is a problem, what do you do with say the Dr Yellow or 300 that cant run properly? can they be run on your layouts as DC, is it switchable?

Thanks  :)

It depends on various things. If you build a layout now, you can always convert it to DCC. In its basic form, you only need to replace the transformer with a DCC command station, and install decoders in each of the locomotives. Most DCC command stations also allow you to run 1 non-DCC locomotive, but I can't recommend doing so.

If, on the other hand, you want to automate all or parts of the layout, or if you want to use a computer to control trains, you'll need a LOT more equipment, and the amount of wiring required is quite staggering =)

I made a few posts about basic computer control and how certain things work. They can be found here:

Chapter 1: http://www.jnsforum.com/index.php/topic,370.0.html
Chapter 2: http://www.jnsforum.com/index.php/topic,372.0.html
Chapter 3: http://www.jnsforum.com/index.php/topic,403.0.html


The video I link to in chapter 1 is especially a good indication of what's possible with DCC and computer control. The trains in the video are all automated, they accelerate and decelerate smoothly, certain trains don't need to stop at the station (express, freight), some stop occasionally. The period they stop can be randomized as well, etc.

WOW! thank you very much, I'll have a look at those links now.  8)

[mrpig]

Hi Guys, just been reading through this thread. All my conversions have only been on EMU's so I am sorry I can't shed any light on the Tomix Loco's. As Bernard stated all my Tomix conversions have been problem free. I used the DZ125 on the E4 & 923 and the M1 on the rest. The one thing I always do is cut down the motor contacts, I didn't want to take any chance that the pointy contact would poke through any insulation and touch the pickup rails.

The only time I have had drama (including Kato) has been the fault of slack maintenance on my part. The track and especially wheels just needed a good clean. Both times this has resulted in very jerky motion and I have even had instantaneous direction reversals uncommanded. Don't know how that didn't result in stripped gears or universals. I think the intermittent contact caused by the grime just confused the hell out of the decoders. They would also end up running flat out regardless of throttle setting or even programmed max speed. A good clean fixed it right up and exorcised the evil demons that possessed my trains.

The capacitor on most of the Tomix motors is just to help prevent interference to things like TV's and radios (mostly AM). A standard cap will block dc and pass ac. When a motor is spinning, the action of the brushes on the commutator creates AC electrical noise, the frequency of which is directly proportional to the speed of the motor. Remember how old power tools and slot cars used to create snow on the telly. Well anyway, the capacitor passes all this AC noise directly to ground without affecting dc operation.

For a capacitor to help with starting our little motors it would have to be a polarised type, usually either an electrolytic or tantalum. There would also need to be some control circuit to only connect the cap to the motor on start up or else it would never be able to store a charge. The other problem is that our trains change direction. Polarised capacitors have a nasty habit of blowing up when connected in reverse for extended periods, thus letting the smoke get out. And everyone knows that electricity is a myth, things run on smoke and wires are really just very small tubes to carry the smoke around. That is why everything always stops when the smoke gets out. ;)

My best suggestion right now would be to double check for intermittent shorts between pickup rails, motor contacts and chassis. Check every possible combination of these 3. I am sure we can get your Tomix trains sorted.

Also, I have only got 2 of my Microace trains done but so far so good.

[CaptOblivious]

mrpig, thanks for the informative post!

Well anyway, the capacitor passes all this AC noise directly to ground without affecting dc operation.

This sounds like good reason to suspect that there's something up with the Tomix motors that come with capacitors. Have any of your trains that you converted had this capacitor? Since the signal coming off the motor leads on a decoder is effectively AC, I wonder if some of Tomix's motors are somehow particularly sensitive to AC signals…is this even a coherent thought? I am pursuing this line only because, e.g., Alpine has time and again checked the other things you mentioned, and insisted that everything is clean, and nothing is shorting (and we trust him :D). Shorts are still a possibility, but now alternative explanations are beginning to look more likely, especially since others are having similar difficulties.

Alpine, you cut out the capacitors, right?

[alpineaustralia]

My motors are capacitor free.

[mrpig]

Well I was going to suggest capacitor removal, but I see you guys are one step ahead. These definitely need to be removed for any decoder. As Capt said, the motor signal is basically AC (pwm as he also stated early on) and the capacitor will see it as such and overload the decoder.

I have done some testing withe 300 and doc yellow. My 300 needs the start volts (CV2) set to 25 before it will start to move at step 1. The Doctor will begin moving with CV2=2, but I would call it more of a lurch. They both behave a lot better after a couple minutes warm up. The older Tomix mechanisms are also a lot noisier. Kato is definitely much nicer all round, but they all do still work on dcc. Except the 400, still working out how I'm going to do the install on it.

I think the Kato motors are definitely better and am wondering if it is because the earlier Tomix are only 3 pole.
The Tomix motors also draw more current, especially when stalled.

[CaptOblivious]

The Tomix motors also draw more current, especially when stalled.

Well, that's interesting to know. Do you have numbers to share?

Alpine, I wonder if its possible your 300 or Doctor Plough stalled at some point (maybe not during that particular incident), and overloaded the decoder?

[Martijn Meerts]

Well I was going to suggest capacitor removal, but I see you guys are one step ahead. These definitely need to be removed for any decoder. As Capt said, the motor signal is basically AC (pwm as he also stated early on) and the capacitor will see it as such and overload the decoder.

Hmm.. My father has locomotives with factory installed decoders and those still have a capacitor on the motor, so not all decoders by default require the capacitor to be removed ;) That specific locomotive is a Minitrix though, nothing Japanese.

All the older motors for all brands are only 3 pole. 5 pole is a fairly recent thing to add in N-scale for the European brands, although I wouldn't be surprised Kato (as well as Tomix and MicroAce) started with 5 pole motors much earlier than the European brands. Especially considering how long it took the European brands to start with flywheels, even in H0 ;)

[alpineaustralia]

The Tomix motors also draw more current, especially when stalled.

This is what I have been saying guys. The Tomix motors need more power to get going and keep going.

Alpine, I wonder if its possible your 300 or Doctor Plough stalled at some point (maybe not during that particular incident), and overloaded the decoder

?

I have since changed decoders and they still bahave consistently with mrpig's description ie.  "My 300 needs the start volts (CV2) set to 25 before it will start to move at step 1. The Doctor will begin moving with CV2=2, but I would call it more of a lurch. They both behave a lot better after a couple minutes warm up. "

[CaptOblivious]

The Tomix motors also draw more current, especially when stalled.

This is what I have been saying guys. The Tomix motors need more power to get going and keep going.

Well, the power needed to get going isn't so much of an issue—even if Vmin is set comparatively high, say to 25 or more, the current draw is likely well within the max of most decoders, so I'm not particularly interested in this fact (although it is telling). What interests me is the stall current, which is the current drawn when the rotors are locked—the maximum current a motor will draw, and the current draw at full load at 12VDC. These numbers may exceed the max ratings of some decoders.

Alpine, what I was wondering was, did your locos ever stall prior to failures? If not, were they run at full voltage for an extended period of time just before failure? I'm trying to determine if the failures could be attributed to exceeding the max continuous or max peak current draws of your decoders. Another thing to do, which would be tedious, would be to measure the stall current and max non-stall current draw of the motors (i.e., while hold the motor output still at 12VDC, and while hauling a full load, perhaps uphill, at 12VDC—really hard to measure!)


What I'm after, overall, is a pattern to the failures that people have experienced. Could anyone else who has installed a decoder into a Tomix train—failure or not!—chime in and tell us your experiences in gory details?

[CaptOblivious]

I have since changed decoders and they still bahave consistently with mrpig's description ie.  "My 300 needs the start volts (CV2) set to 25 before it will start to move at step 1. The Doctor will begin moving with CV2=2, but I would call it more of a lurch. They both behave a lot better after a couple minutes warm up. "

Hang, on, I think this is news. I thought before, that they stopped running after a while. But now you say you've put new decoders in, and they run (if lurchingly)? And they run OK if you remove the decoder? Would you mind telling us here the complete story of your failures, just so we have it all in one place?

[mrpig]

Here are the numbers guys.

Testing was carried out on the LRL RR (Lounge Room Loop RR), so sorry this is motor car only and no grades.
DCC system was a Digitrax 8amp super chief which has the track voltage set to 12V.
Meter used was a Tektronix DMM870 inserted between command station and power supply. I don’t have a proper dcc meter to measure track current so this is the next best thing. The meter is lab quality and calibrated.
Power supply is a 29amp switch mode set to supply the command station with 14V.
All figures have been corrected for the 2v difference between the point of measurement and the actual track voltage. Eg   current = (measured current – command station current) * 14 / 12.

Note that there is a small loss due to command station losses, but it is negligible.

Current draw in mah.

   
                              Min smooth speed       Max Speed     Stall
Tomix  300 with M1                 32                   205          828
Tomix  923 with DZ125            78                   204          700
Kato  500 with DZ125              26                   166          564


Off topic but still interesting to help determine layout power requirements.
Single interior lighting units draw the following;
Kato 21mah
Tomix 14mah
Microace 27mah

Digitrax command station draws 122mah when in sleep mode and actually draws 2mah less when on. :o

Big note here.  The Tomix 300 end cars have 12V lamps instead of led’s. They draw 75mah each which means that an approx 30ohm resistor should be used to prevent the inrush current from damaging your decoders. I have to revisit mine now that I know this. :'(

[CaptOblivious]

mrpig, you are awesome! This is very good data to have. And it looks like that Alpine's and others' problems are likely not a result of a too-high stall current. Great, one hypothesis we can set aside.


(As an aside, I've found these decent replacement for Tomix bulbs; I have a few in my possession I'd be happy to send you: http://www.mcmelectronics.com/product/25-1370)

[mrpig]

I think some of the problems with the Tomix trains are only really apparent because we can normally run trains a lot slower on dcc compared to dc. I think they would not show up on dc and therefore we think there is something wrong on dcc when there is not. Except of course for any fried decoders. Just my thoughts.

Capt - thanks for the offer but it is less work for me to install a single resistor on the bulbs, just like Kato do with their light boards

[CaptOblivious]

Just a idle thought—what effect would the capacitors have on back-EMF? Likely this is totally the wrong tree to bark up, but I wonder if excessive back-EMF might be frying decoders? Is this even a real possibility?

[Martijn Meerts]

I've been thinking a bit more about this, but I just can't find a reason why Tomix trains cause more problems than any other trains.. I've converted locomotives that are 25-30 years old, including their motors, without problem, and I'm pretty sure those draw quite a lot of current.

[alpineaustralia]

I am now officially confused by what you guys are suggesting - you lost me about 3 posts ago.
Are we any the wiser as to why Tomix dont behave like Kato?

[CaptOblivious]

I am now officially confused by what you guys are suggesting - you lost me about 3 posts ago.
Are we any the wiser as to why Tomix dont behave like Kato?

Nope! We've figured out:

That some Tomix motors have slightly higher current demands than some Kato motors, but this isn't a big deal. As Martijn points out: Many older trains have dramatically higher current demands than current Kato motors, but these haven't posed a problem for DCC installs.

That the CL system is likely not a factor.

That the capacitor found in some models is likely not a factor.

That there is no real (or at least discernible) difference betwen Tomix motors and Kato motors.

Therefore: The motors are probably not a source of dead decoders. We must be overlooking something?

[alpineaustralia]

Let me pose the question a different way. Has anyone succesfully installed a decoder in s tomix shinkansen without these problems?

Could it be a bad batch of trains?

[Martijn Meerts]

Okay, so since it's about 99% certain I will be moving back to the Netherlands later this year, I have started packing up some seldomly used things. That means I'll get a bit more space in my room in not too long.

This in turn means, I'll have some space to set up a bit of a workstation for decoder installation. I should have a few decoders left somewhere (both motor and function decoders), and I'm planning on installing one in a Tomix shinkansen to see what happens. Not sure which shinkansen, but it'll likely be the hikari rail star, the dr. yellow, or the 800 considering those have only 1 motor car (and I only have 1 motor decoder I believe).

Might still be a few weeks though, since I first need to clear some room in the basement to temporarily store the boxes of packaged stuff, and then figure out which things are actually "seldomly" used ;)

[alpineaustralia]

Please keep me posted on how you go.

[CaptOblivious]

And, as soon as I can afford it, decoders will be going into the Tomix 209-0 I recently acquired from you, Alpine, the results of which I will naturally post here.

[alpineaustralia]

I hope and trust that you will have better luck than me with Tomix matey.

[Martijn Meerts]

I've opened up my Tomix Dr. Yellow motor car today, and I can't see anything special at all. It does have the capacitor, but other than that it's your standard 3 pole motor that hundreds of thousands of model trains world wide have been using for many years ;)

I'll be installing a Lenz Gold Mini in it in the next few days, once I get to the point where I've cleaned/packed enough to reach my soldering station which is packed in its box somewhere underneath lots of other stuff =)


On a side note, all the gears and motor bearings are about as dry as the Sahara, so it would make sense the thing is a bit noise. I'll be using some Marklin oil for the bearings and Tamiya ceramic grease for the gears, which should help a little bit.

I will of course take pictures of the entire process and post them when I can.

[alpineaustralia]

I still maintain that the motors are different. The Tomix motors in my two trains are stronger and more powerful than Kato but stop easier and harder to get going than Kato and they do not have flywheels and needed a capacitor in DC.
That tells me the motors are different.
 

[Martijn Meerts]

Surgery on Dr Yellow was successful.. Installed a Lenz Gold Mini in the motor car (haven't done the end cars yet), and it runs just fine. It seems to run slightly better forwards than backwards, but it's not very noticable. Noise is also a bit worse backwards than forwards, but not by much. The strange noise I mentioned in a different thread (both the Dr Yellow and the Hikari Rail Star made that noise) is gone in the Dr Yellow. Not sure if it's because of the decoder, or because I've oiled/greased it up a bit.

Haven't changed any of the settings in the decoder, so it's running completely standard. Been running about half an hour each way now at half speed.

Took a bunch of pictures which I will post later.

[Bernard]

Surgery on Dr Yellow was successful.. Installed a Lenz Gold Mini in the motor car (haven't done the end cars yet), and it runs just fine. It seems to run slightly better forwards than backwards, but it's not very noticable. Noise is also a bit worse backwards than forwards, but not by much. The strange noise I mentioned in a different thread (both the Dr Yellow and the Hikari Rail Star made that noise) is gone in the Dr Yellow. Not sure if it's because of the decoder, or because I've oiled/greased it up a bit.

Haven't changed any of the settings in the decoder, so it's running completely standard. Been running about half an hour each way now at half speed.

Took a bunch of pictures which I will post later.

With that successful install, you might be getting a lot of business coming your way so watch out! 

[Martijn Meerts]

Well, the fact that it works with a Lenz Gold Mini doesn't mean it'll work with all other decoders. The Gold Mini's are quite expensive, but they're also of good quality, have tons of features, and have plenty power reserves =)

[alpineaustralia]

My trains also ran quite well.......for a while....and then the nightmare started.
You might recall my post about how Dr Yellow terrorised my local N scale club layout at full speed.
After that the troubles started and not my train only works in one direction.

[Martijn Meerts]

Well, my Dr. Yellow has been running for about 5-6 hours now, including at top speed, minimum speed, both 28 and 128 speed steps. It has also been running as short 3-part base set version as well as full 7-part version, by itself and with other trains running at the same time.

It still runs perfectly fine. Some things I did notice though, it's not the smoothest train at low speeds, but I wasn't expecting it to be considering it's a 3-pole motor. At max speed, it runs faster backwards than it does forwards. Backwards the cars started to tilt, and in the curves you could hear the cars hitting the side walls of the elevated track sections. It is awfully fast at max speed =)

Also interesting, cars 3 and 5 have a slightly darker shade of yellow compared to the other cars. Strange considering 3, 4, 5 and 6 are cars from the add-on set.

My trains also ran quite well.......for a while....and then the nightmare started.
You might recall my post about how Dr Yellow terrorised my local N scale club layout at full speed.
After that the troubles started and not my train only works in one direction.

I've been thinking about this a bit. Do you know how much volts your local N scale club puts on the tracks? There are very few digital systems designed for N-scale (in fact, I can think of only 1, Selectrix, which isn't very popular outside of Germany), and most systems are by default set up for H0.

For example, by default my Lenz command station outputs 16 volts with the possibility to set it to anywhere from 12 to 22 volts I believe (some systems can't even be adjusted and just run 16 volts all the time.) If your local N scale club never runs trains at full speed, they might still have their system set to 16 volts. If that's the case, your motor will have gotten the full 16 volts when running at max speed, which could've damaged it.

[CaptOblivious]

I've been thinking about this a bit. Do you know how much volts your local N scale club puts on the tracks? There are very few digital systems designed for N-scale (in fact, I can think of only 1, Selectrix, which isn't very popular outside of Germany), and most systems are by default set up for H0.

For example, by default my Lenz command station outputs 16 volts with the possibility to set it to anywhere from 12 to 22 volts I believe (some systems can't even be adjusted and just run 16 volts all the time.) If your local N scale club never runs trains at full speed, they might still have their system set to 16 volts. If that's the case, your motor will have gotten the full 16 volts when running at max speed, which could've damaged it.

I don't know what Alpine's club uses, but Digitrax systems have a 12V/16V switch (except the Zephyr—which I'm sure the club isn't using!—which is 12V only).

[alpineaustralia]

That may explain the Dr Yellow problems but not the problems that I have with the series 300.
It is not that my Tomix trains don't run fast, it is that they both start and stops by themselves for no apparent reason on parts of the track that Kato trains just breeze through. They may go days without running and then they will run well (like both are now).
Two additional observations:

1. The train is more likely to stop if the rails are not perfectly clean (whereas there is a lot more tolerance with my Katos); and

2. Sometime when the trains stop, they sit for a while with a very faint hum, the hum seems to get a little louder (only a little) and then the train will work again.

This is why I am convinced the motors are to blame.

 

[CaptOblivious]

Quick addendum: I just compared the motor cars on my Kato E231-500 and my Tomix 209-0, which have similarly sized motors; both have flywheels. I obtained the following results:

Tomix:
   Starts:   2.5VDC
   Stops:   2.1VDC

Kato:
   Starts:   3.8VDC
   Stops:   2.8VDC

Where "starts" means the voltage necessary to get movement from standstill (average over several attempts) and "stops" means the voltage at which the car stops from full-tilt. These numbers are in interesting contrast to Alpine's observations…we'll see what happens when I get a decoder into the Tomix train. Also of interest (and in concordance with Alpine's observations) is that the Tomix motor car runs significantly faster at 12VDC than the Kato car.