Digitrax TF4 decoder

[alpineaustralia]

A recent post form the good Capt made me realise that I was labouring under a costly misunderstanding that the TF4 decoder enabled directional lighting. 

The manual for the TF4 decoder on the website (and which came with the decoder and is visible from the back of the packet) sets out a diagram which shows the white wire connected to one light (say, the headlight) and labelled “(F0 FWD) White”, the yellow wire connected to another light (say, the taillight) labelled “(F0 REV) Yellow” and the blue wire being common to both.

The good Capt has clarified that in fact this is not correct and that the decoders cannot be used to provide forward and reverse lighting as indicated by that diagram.

I have emailed Digitrax for their version of the story and this is there response:

"TF4 can control forward and reverse lights as indicated but cannot do directional, on in forward and off in reverse for front and on in reverse and off in forward for rear lights.  This decoder has been in production for many years and we have never indicated  in any way that they are directional or can be configured for directional lighting. "

I am not sure what they mean by the "TF4 can control forward and reverse lights as indicated but cannot do directional"

Do they mean that they simple turn on and off lights regardles oif direction?  In that case, what do they mean by the words "forward" and "reverse". Or do they mean that they can control two lights in forward and reverse (ie. the front healights/tailights) but not 4 lights?

I have written to Digitrax seeking further clarification.
I'll keep you guys posted.

[CaptOblivious]

I am not sure what they mean by the "TF4 can control forward and reverse lights as indicated but cannot do directional"

Do they mean that they simple turn on and off lights regardles oif direction?  In that case, what do they mean by the words "forward" and "reverse". Or do they mean that they can control two lights in forward and reverse (ie. the front healights/tailights) but not 4 lights?

I have written to Digitrax seeking further clarification.
I'll keep you guys posted.

I think that they mean there is are enough functions available to connect to the headlights and the taillights. Which, for our purposes, is not good enough.

Thanks for the thread! And taking the initiative to get hard clarification on these matters.

[alpineaustralia]

Response from Digitrax as follows:

"Regular Mobile Decoders have the ability to control front and rear headlights in several ways: 

1. the front and rear lights will come on when the loco is moving that direction and go off when it is moving the other direction (directional) ,

2. the front and rear headlights will be on or off as you direct using one function such as F0 or F1, etc.  regardless of which direction the locomotive is moving ( non-directional),

3. the front and rear headlights will be on or off as you direct using separate functions for each regardless of which direction the locomotive is moving (non-directional, independant control). 

The TF4 can only control the front and rear headlights as in #3 above, non-directional, independant control.  This means you can have the front and rear headlights but they will be on or off as you determine by having the functions you have assigned them to turned on or off.  You can have the front and rear headlights, just not have them directional as in #1 above.  For instance you can configure CVs 61 and 64 to control the white wired front headlight with F1 and the yellow wired rear headlight with F2 by assigning CV61 a value of 002 and CV64 a value of 000 [see table I of the instructions]. 

You can therefore do what you want by turning the front headlight on with F1 and have F2 turned off when moving forward and when moving rearward simply turn F1 off which turns the front headlight off and turn F2 on which would turn the rear headlight on.  TF4 just will not do this automatically for you as will the regular Mobile Decoders for locomotives that also contol the locomotive's motors as TF4 will not do. 

Hope this better explains the differences. 

Happy Railroading"


Where Digitrax mentions "do what you want", they are referring to my question of whether the TF4 will control only 2 lights the headlight and the taillight by:
 - turning the headlight on and turning the taillight off when moving forward; and
 - turning the taillight headlight on and turning the headlight off when moving in reverse.

I have in the meantime responded with a complaint that the diagram in the manual and on their website is misleading because:

1. It which shows the white wire connected to a headlight and labelled “(F0 FWD) White”, the yellow wire connected to a taillight labelled “(F0 REV) Yellow” and the blue wire being common to both is in fact incorrect because it indicates that both lights will work off the FO in the combination FWD/ REV  when in fact they do not.

2. The diagram in relation to the white and yellow wires is exactly the same as the diagram that digitrax includes for directional decoders.

3. When Digitrax shows the same diagram with the “(F0 FWD) White” and “(F0 REV) Yellow”, it wrongly implies that both work off the same function key (F0) in opposite to directions. 

4. I was in fact misled by that diagram.

I ama awaiting a reply.

[alpineaustralia]

These guys are unbelievable. They are denying that their diagram is wrong.
I have asked that the matter be escalated because this is good old plain wrong of them to get away with this sort of misrepresentation.

[CaptOblivious]

These guys are unbelievable. They are denying that their diagram is wrong.
I have asked that the matter be escalated because this is good old plain wrong of them to get away with this sort of misrepresentation.

Seconded. Their diagram is wrong, or at least misleading. This decoder does not have F0f and F0r functions. If you need additional pressure, I'm happy to help provide it.

[alpineaustralia]

I may need that as I am currently engaged in an email exchange with them on this issue.
As I have explained to them, despite their protestations, I was actually misled by the manual into thinking that both White/FWD and Yellow/REV lights worked off F0.
They simply deny it saying they have misled no-one.
Well, I am living proof of someone who has actually been misled (and stuck with a bunch of TF4 decoders which I have no use for, for my troubles).

[CaptOblivious]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Digitrax's documentation sucks.

I've just reviewed both the Digitrax Decoder Manual—which says all their decoders support directional lighting (p.21; link: http://www.digitrax.com/ftp/decodermanual.pdf), and the TF4 manual with the diagram in question (last p. link: http://www.digitrax.com/ftp/tf4.pdf).

What we didn't notice, Alpine, is that there are, count 'em, two decoders in that diagram. And the F0f and F0r are attached to the decoder labeled "Installed DCC Decoder"—and not the decoder labeled "TF4"! This is presumably because the TF4 is typically going to be installed to expand the number of functions in a loco already equipped with a decoder—not our situation at all! Because we're not thinking in terms of installing the TF4 as a second decoder, then of course we didn't see two decoders in that diagram!

Unfortunately, this means that Digitrax is right: The diagram isn't really misleading at all. We've just read it incorrectly, a justifiable mistake.

Still, it sounds like they handled your complaint rather poorly, and this episode counts in my mind as yet another mark against the company.

[alpineaustralia]

The references to F0 FWD and F0 REV on the diagram point directly at the TF4 decoder and appear to be explanations of the various leads on the TF4.  Having said that, I suspect that they will agree that the alternative interpretation you have come up with is correct.

The fact that their diagram may or may not be technically correct doesnt mean that it cannot be misleading.  There are numerous legal cases throughout common law jurisdictions to that effect.
Think about how you and I have had to analyse this dodgey diagram of theirs to come up with this alternative interpretation of it.

I am very unimpressed with Digitrax at the moment. I cannot say their handling of my complaint has been particularly stellar.
They seem to be more worried about batting my complaint back than actually addressing my complaint or their dodgey diagram.

[CaptOblivious]

The fact that their diagram may or may not be technically correct doesnt mean that it cannot be misleading.  There are numerous legal cases throughout common law jurisdictions to that effect.
Think about how you and I have had to analyse this dodgey diagram of theirs to come up with this alternative interpretation of it.

Point well taken. It's taken us a number of posts to even realize that there are multiple interpretations, nevermind which is correct.

I am very unimpressed with Digitrax at the moment. I cannot say their handling of my complaint has been particularly stellar.
They seem to be more worried about batting my complaint back than actually addressing my complaint or their dodgey diagram.

This has been my experience in asking them technical questions, too. I don't think you're going to get satisfaction from them.

Thankfully, unopened decoders seem to be going for full retail on eBay. You oughta put yours up for sale there, and pick up…well, I'm not sure what's best. Indeed, that's just what I'm trying to start a conversation over here: http://www.jnsforum.com/index.php/topic,847.0.html

[Bernard]

Alpine - I'm sorry that you're having this problem with Digitrax.

Digitrax should realize that we are having an open discussion at this forum about this problem. We are one of the groups that needs at least 3 decoders in our Japanese prototypes to make them run properly. After reading this thread, why would I want to purchase TF4s? (Unfortuntley I do have 2 I haven't installed)

Alpine - Even though you are having this problem, by documenting it, I think you saved a lot of other members from this anguish. 

[alpineaustralia]

Thanks Bernard.
It is some comfort that at least someone else on this site wotn make the same mistake.
I am awaiting their reply to my request that they buy back the 15 TF4 decoders that I spent my hard earned money on.
They have so far ignored me the last 3 days.
 

[alpineaustralia]

After some "heated" correspondence between Digitrax and myself, Digitrax finally agreed to come to some arrangement with the store that sold me the decoders if the store agreed to take back the decoders back or exchange them. 

I have contected the store which has been completely innocent. The diagram that I relied on in the TF4 manual had nothing to do with the store at all.
Despite this, the store has beeen absolutely brilliant in agreeing to take back the decoders even though it is well outside their normal return policy.
The store is:

DCC Hobby Supply
227 Streamside Drive, Drake, CO 80515
USA
970-586-3161

Website: dcchobbysupply.com

Not only are they inexpensive (probably the cheapest decoders that I have sourced so far) but really really nice guys that have a good old fashioned view of servicing their customers. I know this sounds like a TV ad but they really didnt have to help in this situation, but they did anyway.

I can strongly commend them to you.

[CaptOblivious]

Never heard of them before. They'll be getting business enough from me, soon, though :D

Can I suggest the TCS FL4 as a replacement?

After some "heated" correspondence between Digitrax and myself, Digitrax finally agreed to come to some arrangement with the store that sold me the decoders if the store agreed to take back the decoders back or exchange them. 

I have contected the store which has been completely innocent. The diagram that I relied on in the TF4 manual had nothing to do with the store at all.
Despite this, the store has beeen absolutely brilliant in agreeing to take back the decoders even though it is well outside their normal return policy.
The store is:

DCC Hobby Supply
227 Streamside Drive, Drake, CO 80515
USA
970-586-3161

Website: dcchobbysupply.com

Not only are they inexpensive (probably the cheapest decoders that I have sourced so far) but really really nice guys that have a good old fashioned view of servicing their customers. I know this sounds like a TV ad but they really didnt have to help in this situation, but they did anyway.

I can strongly commend them to you.