Our basement layout

[scott]

Hi there--I'm new here, and Bernard suggested that I start a thread here about the layout I'm about to build (with the help of a friend and my 6-year-old son). I'll be using a lot of Kato parts and a mix of Japanese and American trains (and eventually European, too, I hope).

Here's the trackplan--it's about 15 feet on the longest side, and is going to eat up a good chunk of our basement. That's pretty big for us, but I figured I might as well do something nice right away, rather than giving the kid a little loop he'd get bored with. (We took him to see someone's O-scale layout, which was just three nested rectangular loops. He loved the trains, but whispered in my ear, "Dad...how come they just go around in circles?"  :) ). So I cleaned out a workable part of the basement and designed this (fwiw):

More details...

Although I originally planned a point-to-point, double-mainline layout, the fact is that a six-year-old is going to want his trains (and I do have to remember this *is* his layout....) to run continuously when he wants them to. The red line is the "express line"--it uses 19"-radius curves, and will be for a 500 Shinkansen and (I hope) an Acela set, which my son really wants. The blue line will be for a mix of Amtrak and other passenger stuff (I should have said that we'll be using entirely passenger equipment), and uses 15-inch curves. The orange line is a point-to-point "local" line so that I can run EMUs and railcars.

The plan is to have a few ridges that split the layout up visually. The orange and blue lines will climb over the red line to the right of the station, and the blue line will stay 2" above the rest on the right side. The red line will stay pretty flat; the others might get more grades. However, I like Bernard's idea of eventually adding a yard for the red line on the left side, so we'll see how that meshes with the terrain plans.

The wood is all waiting in our basement, so with any luck construction will begin soon...

[Darren Jeffries]

This looks a good plan. Welcome to JNS and I look forward to seeing the progress.

[Bernard]

Hi Scott - This looks like it is going to be a fun layout.
There is one concern I do have, the length of the layout is 15' which is a nice size but what is the width of it. My concern is with that corner on the west side (left on the plan) are you going to have enough room to access it, even with the hole in the center, when you start putting down track, build scenery or have to get to a derailment? If the layout is in the center of a room you might not have that problem but if it's built to the walls if could be a problem.

I agree with you about having a continuous running layout, kids want to see trains running, disappear into tunnels and come out of nowhere. And he will be the hit on his block with his friends.

Another suggestion besides the yard, since you have 3 independent lines, why not put either turnouts or a double crossover so that the trains can switch into other lines? You could do somewhere in the center of the layout at either the station area or the other side with a little re-designing.

As for the yard, if would be ideal to have it service all three lines. This can be done with either going into one main line and switching over to the other lines (see the above paragraph) or from the yard go into any of the main lines.

The Red line is going to level and the Orange & Blue lines will be elevated. So that means, on the East side (right) of the plan, they start out 2" elevated but will be at level ground when they come into the station in the center. My concern is the Blue line at the loop area, what will the grade have to be from that point to get level into the station? You might be fine, but lets check if you are giving yourself enough room and clearance to get to ground level before the station.

I know I've posed a lot of questions but it's fun to solve potential problems in the design phase. For me this is the fun part of model RRing. Scott thanks for starting this thread.

[scott]

Thanks!

Bernard - What the layout plan doesn't show is that there's just enough space to squeeze by between the wall and the layout on the left side. This is both to provide access to that side of the layout and to make sure that I can get to the water-shutoff valve for the house!

I'd love to have the lines interconnect, but since I can't really afford DCC right now, and want to keep the initial setup as simple as possible to avoid the project stalling, I was planning to stick with DC. (Also, most of the equipment I already have is not DCC-friendly.) I'm not sure how I could interconnect the lines with DC.

As for the slopes, I had to use 4% grades, but that was about the only way I could make it work. And I don't plan to be running long freight trains, so I think we'll be OK most of the time.

Good questions...

[Bernard]

The great thing about Unitrack is that you can set up your layout and see how things work out. I used flex track and that isn't an option.

Scott, when are you planning to start building your bench work?

[scott]

With any luck, we might be able to start this weekend. I have a friend who's a carpenter who's going to help out.

I also need to order all the track etc. pretty soon. I suppose we should consider DCC one more time, if there's a way to do it for a comparable price, but I'm leery of having to add decoders to my various pre-DCC engines.

[CaptOblivious]

With any luck, we might be able to start this weekend. I have a friend who's a carpenter who's going to help out.

I also need to order all the track etc. pretty soon. I suppose we should consider DCC one more time, if there's a way to do it for a comparable price, but I'm leery of having to add decoders to my various pre-DCC engines.

I don't think that Bernard meant that you had to use DCC; he just thinks—as do I—that it would be handy if there were someplace where a train on one line could cross over onto another of the three lines. This way, your 500-series, for example, could run on the red, blue, and orange lines, without having to resort to picking the train up off the tracks. DCC not required! But a few more (possibly expensive) pieces of Unitrack are required.

[to2leo]

Hi Pilotfish,
That is a pretty cool looking layout.

A few suggestions about getting Amtrak equipments.  The Acela Set does not work on curves less that 21 inches.  Trust me I have one dormant in my basement.  Also, other Bachmann equipments are just as disappointing as the Spectrum product for Amtrak.  Unless you are going to get Kato, Con-cor, or Atlas, do not touch Bachmann with a ten foot pole.

I am not doing this to disrespect Bachmann, I am doing this to save you frustration and money you have.  I wish someone would told me when I was new to n scale.

[scott]

I don't think that Bernard meant that you had to use DCC; he just thinks—as do I—that it would be handy if there were someplace where a train on one line could cross over onto another of the three lines. This way, your 500-series, for example, could run on the red, blue, and orange lines, without having to resort to picking the train up off the tracks. DCC not required! But a few more (possibly expensive) pieces of Unitrack are required.

Well, it sounds like a great idea to me, too. But how could it work with DC? Would it mean that the entire layout would be on one DC controller and only one train could run at a time? (As-is, I could run three trains at the same time, on separate lines.) I'd love to find a way to connect everything up.

(Pardon me for being slow, but I'm still trying to learn all this. I really appreciate all the advice and ideas).

--scott

[scott]

Hi Pilotfish,
That is a pretty cool looking layout.

Thanks! I can't wait to get it going...

A few suggestions about getting Amtrak equipments.  The Acela Set does not work on curves less that 21 inches.  Trust me I have one dormant in my basement.

Thanks for the warning--I mainly wanted to get one because the kid wants one, but I'd hate for it to give him problems. I'm not going to be able to go above 19"--the room's not big enough (unless I encircle the central stairs and furnace, which would make me very unpopular at home). Also, the next size up with Unitrack is 28", iirc.

Also, other Bachmann equipments are just as disappointing as the Spectrum product for Amtrak.  Unless you are going to get Kato, Con-cor, or Atlas, do not touch Bachmann with a ten foot pole.

So far, we don't have much Bachmann stuff, and the only important Bachmann item is a new set with an E60 and 3 Amfleet coaches. The rest of the Amtrak stuff is a mix of various brands, all used. We'll eventually weed out what doesn't work.

[Bernard]

No problem, we're all learning here. ;) The best way to find out is to ask questions.

As I see it, on your layout if you run DC, you can have 3 trains running at the same time on separate lines. But if you want to, you can interconnect all three lines with switches, then you can have the possibility or running a train on all three lines for a long run with the possibility of ending on the furthest line. You can then bring out other trains to take their place on there own individual lines. No matter what, from your plan you will need 3 DC transformers.

CaptO is right Kato switches aren't cheap though but they give you lots of options. Now if you want to have the option of running individual lines with interconnection, you will have to insulate the three lines. This means that when a train changes over to another line, it will be going onto another power source and you need to isolate those two sources. This is simply done by putting plastic (insulated) rail joiners at some point before or after a switch.

But this is something you can do at another time, as I said with Unitrack, you have the option of setting the track up and taking it apart and adding on before you make a permanent layout. It's your layout and the most important thing is to have fun! ;)

Alright that's a lot to absorb and I hope I explained it accurately.

[scott]

<light goes on> Ohhhh, now I get it--thanks! I even know why I was confused--I was  thinking that crossing an insulated gap would cause a short while the two powered trucks were on different power sources. But that was what I had read about reversing loops, where the polarity reverses.

So--is it just a matter of making sure that "forward" and "reverse" are the same directions on each line? And could this work with a double crossover as well as a regular switch?

[CaptOblivious]

<light goes on> Ohhhh, now I get it--thanks! I even know why I was confused--I was  thinking that crossing an insulated gap would cause a short while the two powered trucks were on different power sources. But that was what I had read about reversing loops, where the polarity reverses.

So--is it just a matter of making sure that "forward" and "reverse" are the same directions on each line? And could this work with a double crossover as well as a regular switch?

Yep, that's the easy way, and the way I was first thinking about. But this might not be the route you want to take, since your son may not understand the importance of keeping the polarity matched during switching. You probably want something more reliable.

The slightly more difficult but more reliable way is to use something like the ubiquitous Atlas panel switches (e.g. the 210 DPDT: http://store.bluemountaintrains.com/servlet/-strse-110/Atlas-%23210-Twin/Detail ). You would pick one throttle as the "master" throttle, and the other two as secondary throttles. Let's color the throttles according to which track they control, and call the red throttle the master. Normally, red throttle controls red track, blue throttle controls blue track, orange throttle orange track. But, if you flip one of the switches, now the red throttle controls both red and blue. Reset the first switch, and flip the second, and now red controls red and orange. Flip both and red controls everything. (So you only need two switches total). Now, since these are double-pole double-throw switches, each switch can control two things simultaneously: you can interlock the turnouts with the panel switches, so that the turnouts only work when the proper panel switch is thrown.

I know this is complex, but I can work up a wiring diagram for you later today that should make it clear, if someone else doesn't beat me to it ;)

[scott]

Yep, that's the easy way, and the way I was first thinking about. But this might be the route you want to take, since your son may not understand the importance of keeping the polarity matched during switching. You probably want something more reliable.

OK--I was assuming you'd have to set it up so the polarity *couldn't* be mismatched, but perhaps that's naive. :)

Now, since these are double-pole double-throw switches, each switch can control two things simultaneously: you can interlock the turnouts with the panel switches, so that the turnouts only work when the proper panel switch is thrown.

I know this is complex, but I can work up a wiring diagram for you later today that should make it clear, if someone else doesn't beat me to it ;)

"It has baffles and channels--it would take a scientist to explain, and I'm from the humanities."
  -- Joel Hodgson, MST3K

[CaptOblivious]

OK--I was assuming you'd have to set it up so the polarity *couldn't* be mismatched, but perhaps that's naive. :)

No, that's not really possible, sadly. It's not possible to force the polarity switches on the throttle to match: Curious hands can always flip just one switch! Which ends in disaster.

"It has baffles and channels--it would take a scientist to explain, and I'm from the humanities."
  -- Joel Hodgson, MST3K

You are not allowed to hide behind the veil of the humanities! For I too am from the humanities :D  I'm a philosopher by trade.
I think a diagram would help you see what I mean a lot.

A Note: I was mistaken about needing a DPDT (double-pole double-throw) switch, you need a 4PDT (4-pole double-throw) switch. These are still very cheap and easy to use! 4-pole means that the switch can work 4 lines simultaneously. Which is good, because track requires two lines (one + and one -) and the switch also requires 2 lines (one to close and one to throw). The double-throw just means there are two positions for the switch. A triple-throw switch has three, and a single-throw has two, but one is "disconnected".

In the top diagram, the 4PDT switch is set so that the red throttle controls both red and blue tracks, and the turnout is "activated". In the bottom diagram, the 4PDT switch is set so that the red throttle controls the red track, the blue the blue track, and the turnout is "inactivated". The only source of unreliability is that if the switch is left "thrown", you could get the polarity mismatch we are trying to avoid…so you still have to be careful, but it is at least harder for curious hands to do damage this way.

I hope this helps you visualize what I was trying to describe.

Finally, to control a crossover, which has four leads coming out of it instead of two, you need a 6PDT switch…

[scott]

This may be hard to believe, but I think I actually understand that diagram.  :)

I didn't get it until I realized that all four portions of the switch changed their binary option at the same time.

Thanks very much for doing that--I really appreciate the help, and I'm going to keep that diagram for future use.

Edit--just came up with a question. Does the red throttle need to have two DC outputs?

[CaptOblivious]

This may be hard to believe, but I think I actually understand that diagram.  :)

I didn't get it until I realized that all four portions of the switch changed their binary option at the same time.

Thanks very much for doing that--I really appreciate the help, and I'm going to keep that diagram for future use.

Edit--just came up with a question. Does the red throttle need to have two DC outputs?

No. You can split the one output into two. If you are using the Kato throttles, Kato makes a special splitter cable; indeed, it comes in a three-way version, which is what you'll need to control all three lines from the red throttle. Kato part no. 24-827 “3-Way Extension Cord, 35"” is all you'll need.

[CaptOblivious]

This may be hard to believe, but I think I actually understand that diagram.  :)

I didn't get it until I realized that all four portions of the switch changed their binary option at the same time.

Thanks very much for doing that--I really appreciate the help, and I'm going to keep that diagram for future use.

I believe it! A diagram can go a long way to make a complex idea simple. In this case, the idea isn't actually so complex, but it is hard to communicate in words. And, you're welcome: That's why I'm here!

Since we're both Mac users, if you have OmniGraffle, I can send you the file I used to make that image, which is a little clearer.

[scott]

Kato part no. 24-827 “3-Way Extension Cord, 35"” is all you'll need.

Oh--OK, I wondered what those were for.

Since we're both Mac users, if you have OmniGraffle, I can send you the file I used to make that image, which is a little clearer.

Thans, but I don't have that program, and it looks like it needs 10.5; I'm working with 10.3. I think the image is clear enough for me to work with.

[Bernard]

I knew CaptO would be able to explain it better, he even has diagrams ;)
(I have diagrams too, but I do mine on an Etch-O-Sketch.  ;D ;D)

[scott]

an Etch-O-Sketch.  ;D ;D)

 ;D  Now that's my technical level....

[Bernard]

Yep, that was my first laptop! ;D ;D

[scott]

It's great--if the system crashes, you can just pick it up and shake it. I wish I could do that with the Windows thing I have to use at work....

[CaptOblivious]

[Bernard]

LOL and you even had a diagram for that too.  :D :D
The good thing about an Etch-O-Sketch is you don't need tech support. ;D

[scott]

The benchwork is in! Thanks almost entirely to my friend Stewart, whose skills, experience, and tools made this possible, the tables are built, and just waiting for the foam top. (Please pardon our old and non-Better-Housekeeping basement; I feel lucky to even *have* a basement....).

More details...

[Bernard]

The bench work went up real fast! Is the hole in the middle for access?
I really like working with foam, it will make carving out rivers, lakes, etc. is a breeze. Are you going to use 1" or 2" foam board?
Your basement is fine, so many modelers would give anything for that space. Looking forward to the next photos of the layout!

[scott]

Yeah, that was pretty quick--I hate to think how long it would have taken me alone.....

The hole is for access, either to derailments or landscaping projects. I can reach the far side, but the kid can't, and it would be hard to work over there.

We just got a bunch of 2" foam today, so that should be going on next.

[Shashinka]

Awesome the new version of XtrakCAD is out and in a new open platform OS for the non-eletrically powered computer too.

[scott]

Sunday update--the 2-inch foam is glued onto the table, and the track is ordered. Ordering was difficult, since it triggered some "suspicion online transaction" thing with Visa and our card was locked up completely. Eventually I got it straight and the order went through.  ::)

Don't know how much we'll get done during the week, but I'm sure the kid will want to get at least one line going right away...

[Bernard]

That will be very easy to get a line running with Unitrack.
Are you planing on making this a permanent layout once you get all the track?

[scott]

Assuming there aren't any problems with the track plan, it should be there for the long term. We're planning on landscaping it pretty thoroughly as time allows.

I'm wondering what might work to hold the track in place once it's all tested.

[CaptOblivious]

Assuming there aren't any problems with the track plan, it should be there for the long term. We're planning on landscaping it pretty thoroughly as time allows.

I'm wondering what might work to hold the track in place once it's all tested.

I'm a big fan of lo-temp hot glue. Can be messy, but it cleans up pretty well, and doesn't melt track or foam.

[scott]

Thanks!

Mid-week update: supposedly the track will arrive by UPS today. I'm hoping that I can get enough other stuff done quickly that I'll be able to at least lay the track out this weekend.

Here's the Japanese-equipment list so far, all lucky deals from eBay:

* Kato 7-car 500-series Shinkansen (might save this up for the kid's birthday)
* Microace "Akagaeru" 2-car EMU
* Tomix 115-2000 3-car EMU

I was just about to cave in and buy a Haruka 281 EMU (though I wasn't thrilled about the price) when I found a bunch of surprisingly cheap Fleischmann, Trix, and Lima stuff to make up a nice DB passenger express. However, this has killed any further train purchases. And of course we'll have the Amtrak stuff the kid wanted, so it'll be a multinational layout.

Oh, and we have a Kato 14617 "works tram" on the way, but I think that's a model of a European prototype.

http://www.nscaledivision.com/images/Kato%20Images/KATO_Tram_Arbeit.jpg

[CaptOblivious]

Thanks!

Mid-week update: supposedly the track will arrive by UPS today. I'm hoping that I can get enough other stuff done quickly that I'll be able to at least lay the track out this weekend.

Excellent news.

Oh, and we have a Kato 14617 "works tram" on the way, but I think that's a model of a European prototype.

http://www.nscaledivision.com/images/Kato%20Images/KATO_Tram_Arbeit.jpg

With a name like Arbeitswagen, I think we can securely call this a German prototype ;)

[Bernard]

You're really starting to build up your roster. I love getting those UPS packages and I rush to get trains on the tracks. How did working with the foam come out?

[scott]

With a name like Arbeitswagen, I think we can securely call this a German prototype ;)

Well, true, but at first I wasn't sure if that was the model name, or just a German description.

At least, that's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

You're really starting to build up your roster. I love getting those UPS packages and I rush to get trains on the tracks. How did working with the foam come out?

The foam went down fine--I was worried at first that it wasn't going to stick, but I just put some heavy boxes on the difficult parts, and now it's all fine. I started off using Liquid Nails (new band name?), but ran out of that and finished off with some Adhesive Vinyl Caulk that we had left over. Both seem to do fine. Now I need to find a glue that will hold foam to foam, since some of the scraps are going to form risers for some elevated sections of track.

[scott]

[click to embiggen]

And there's a small Flickr set showing some pictures so far; I'll add more as it goes along.

[CaptOblivious]

 :o whee!!! Looks like so much fun.

[scott]

Just counting the hours to finish work and finish the bedroom painting so I can get started....

[Bernard]

Now I know why the hole is there! ;D
It looks like your son is having the time of his life.

The best Adhesive I used for foam is PL-300. It looks like the Liquid Nails tube but a light blue. It's meant for attaching insulation foam (and I should mention that there is a "Liquid Nails for Foam Projects" too.)
I've used both, here is my comparison:

PL-300 comes out of the tube a purplish cream, it has an strong odor but adheres better and quicker than Liquid Nails.
Liquid Nails for Foam Projects, comes out white, there is no odor, but takes quite awhile to set. So in that way you can easily reposition a piece of foam later if you want.

Do you have to go to work and then paint the bedroom? Don't they know you just got all your track? ;D
I don't know how you can control yourself from diving in there and starting your layout!! This is the exciting part. ;)

[scott]

Do you have to go to work and then paint the bedroom? Don't they know you just got all your track? ;D

 ;D  Somehow, nobody else seems to have their priorities straight. 

I don't know how you can control yourself from diving in there and starting your layout!! This is the exciting part. ;)

It's a struggle, believe me.....

[scott]

Despite the fact that it was a beautiful spring weekend, I managed to get all the track down -- just need a few more pieces (DC extension cords and two viaduct track pieces):

More details...

[Bernard]

Wow and Double Wow! You're really got off to a great start!
Have you run any of the trains on the layout yet and is everything working alright?

[Claude_Dreyfus]

 8) That does look promising...I'm sure it will be a lot of fun to play with  ;D

[Shashinka]

I just realized, eh has a source of running water and doesn't need WS water with that big ole tank right there. It's the world's largest water tower :)

[scott]

Wow and Double Wow! You're really got off to a great start!
Have you run any of the trains on the layout yet and is everything working alright?

We just now had our first test session (and thus dinner is late....).

The first test mule was the Kato "arbeitwagen," which is very cute, but was reluctant to move--at first it wouldn't move on any of the three tracks, and I thought we had a serious wiring problem. But the little tram gradually loosened up a bit; not quite there yet, though. Perhaps some oil?

Next I gave my son the E60 Amtrak set that I was saving up for him, and he was really excited about it. The E60 was less excited about running, though, and seems to be having some trouble getting going. But at least we know the track and controllers are connected OK. We even tried my old ATSF diesel, which I don't want to use and was sort of hoping was broken, but it ground its way along.

Finally we got out my Tomix 115 interurban, and guess what? Smooth running very first try. :) But at least one of the controllers is working very strangely in "momentum" mode--if I turn the throttle down to zero, the train keeps running, rather than coming to a smooth stop. Weird; I may have to return that one.

So anyway, it looks like the track wiring is fine, and now I just need to figure out how to loosen up some reluctant engines so they'll pull smoothly. Not a bad start....

[scott]

I just realized, eh has a source of running water and doesn't need WS water with that big ole tank right there. It's the world's largest water tower :)

Yeah, in N-scale, that's enough for Tokyo. Serious Godzilla-bait.

[Bernard]

Pilot - Just as a test, try switching the transformer that is defective onto another track and see how it responds.

[scott]

OK--thanks. I'll give that a try; tonight, time permitting.