Kato transformer broken?

Hi,

Today I received an order of Unitrack including my first switches. I was happily putting it all together, using the power car and the two cab cars of my Kato E231 Yamanote to do some tests and learn how the switches work.

Then I put the power car and two cab cars of my MicroAce Shikoku 8000 series on the track as well. First they were on separate track, but somehow they ended up on the same part of track and a few centimeters they were both riding on the same track until the cab car of the E231 was close to a switch (but not on) and the 8000 series' power car was on another the switch. And then the trains stopped moving, the headlights turned off, and the transformers green indicator light was off. I decided to pull out the plug of the adaptor and attached it again, did the same with another outlet, but the indicator light won't turn on and there's no electricity in the tracks or "switch switches". I disconnected it from all devices as well and the effect was the same.

What could have went wrong and what should I do with this?

Note that my transformer uses a Japanese adaptor used together with an step down converter from 230V-->110V and the same device also changes the plug type from Dutch to Japanese.

I'm kinda down now that I thought I could finally play and start with my modules and now this happens.

I added an image about how it looked like at the time the power went off. The green and blue sections indicate the location of the trains.

Hi

It sounds like you may have shorted the transformer: maybe one of the power pick-up wheels of you engine was touching the wrong track just at the turnout.

I don't know whether there is a breaker on the Kato transformer, perhaps a button to press or maybe its a time delay breaker and you did not give it enough time.

Someone here will know about the transformer, so they can tell you about this (or you can read the manual). I'd make sure you did not burn a fuse in your electric panel i.e. check that power is coming from the outlet. Does the step-up converter have a fuse/breaker? Maybe the problem is there.

I'd disconnect the track where the power plugs in and just test that part of the track for power. That way, if there is switch problem you have isolated it.

I'll bet there is a simple but not fatal reason so hang in there!

I don't know about the Unitrack turnout, but I have noticed with the Tomix ones, is that they cause a short when for example the turnout is set to straight, but the train is coming from the curved end. The frog will have the wrong polarity in that case. Usually, the power pack will have some sort of short circuit protection..

I've also had (non-Japanese) trains cause a short on Tomix turnouts by just going through them. I believe it's because the Minitrix/Fleischmann/etc. trains have bigger wheels.

If your Kato power pack is today's standard blue model, try pushing in the little red circuit breaker button located on the back. When it is pushed in properly, you should get the green power light again.

Rich K.

Thanks guys! Indeed, pressing the red button solved the problem and the green light was back as well. I probably made a short-circuit someway, at least I'm glad that Kato took countermeasures rather than analog Fleischmann/Roco/Trix transformers that don't turn off themselves (only the digital systems do so). Now I've been playing with it for a while and it works perfectly fine.

At least it was a good learning lesson. I had no idea that Kato's turnouts worked like this, in H0 these problems never occurred to me but I know that Minitrix turnouts also can make a short circuit if you forget to switch it correctly.

A tad bit weird is that the frog is actually plastic, or at least it looks like that to me. I didn't know about this until I opened the package so I was kinda surprised about it, I expected better. I don't really understand why it makes a short circuit.

Minitrix has 2 versions of some of their turnouts. They have the plastic frog and metal frog versions. The metal frog version causes shorts, the plastic frog version never do.

Tomix has also started using metal frogs for their newer turnouts instead of the plastic ones on the older ones.

My grandma uses Minitrix turnouts with metal frogs, they always cause short circuits if we forget to switch it, but the Multimaus automatically turns the power off.

I should have noted I'm using the R481 turnouts, I already found that part to be looking like plastic, and it appeared to be so indeed. I just can't understand why it causes short-circuits if it doesn't have a metal frog while other turnouts with plastic frogs don't cause a short circuit.

I expect it's something with the power routing feature, but there's others here who'll know more about Unitrack turnouts :)

Hmmm... probably you're right.

That power routing function works pretty neat combined with the turnout switches connected to the controller, if you don't forget to switch on time. I'm getting lazy because of this.

i dont think we ever shorted out like this by just running reverse through turnouts the wrong direction on the jrm layou, only when we have had a derailment on a point and the wheels fell just the right place to short the frogs. im wondering if the car that came off at the point picked it just the right way to short it out with a derailed a truck. just bad luck this happening on the first run! done a lot of unitrak running in the last 10 years and only times shorts have happen were from our old wiring system where you could plug a section of track in backwards (if you mismatched colors) or derailment at a point or once a point failure but that caused the power routing to go dead not a short.

keep on playing its the way to learn! luckily the circuit breaker will usually trip to prevent damage!

jeff

But you guys are also using R718 turnouts, am I right? They do have metal frogs right?

we also used the #4s as well in the past and as far as i know never shorted on them just going through in reverse. all of the shorts were derailments that shorted the frogs of both #4 and #6s, but that is fairly rare.

we stopped using the #4s as they are just not as reliable, with a lot more point picking than #6s. you can tune them by cutting grooves into the rails for the points to nestle into and get rid of this behavior, but we just decided to go with the more robust #6s in the new layout. also we had a higher proportion of #4s go bad than #6s so another reason to stick with the #6s. longer cars also just dont like the #4s as much.

cheers

jeff

Hmmm... maybe I should get a cheapo loco somewhere for test purposes so that I can find out if it really makes a short circuit or not, I don't like trying that with my expensive Japanese models.

this kind of short will not hurt your loco or cars as long as you dont let it sit ther for 15 minutes. then it can heat up the wheels some and melt the bogie frame. but since your powerpack breaker blew right away you shouldn't even have this issue as the breaker blew pretty quickly.

this is not a common occurrence, issue, or problem with japanese trains or kato or tomix track, happens now and then but never a problem unless you are not watching and let it sit there shorting for a long time and the powerpack does not shut off with a breaker.

jeff

On all Kato switches I have, the frog is metal and energized (the #4 has a screw that can be moved to de-energize it). If you enter a Kato switch from the non-selected route, the frog is set to the same polarity as the opposite rail, so no current flows through the train, so that won't cause a short.  There are potential shorts that involve the frog and the same rail on a #4 switch, and one point-rail issue on the #6.

The first problem with the #4 occurs if it's set to energize both frog-facing rails.  Different editions of the switch have labeled that differently.  On some it was called "power routing", which seems the opposite of what it's doing to me, and that's what I have on my switches, but I believe they've either swapped labels or used different ones at different times.  When set this way, the wrong-way rail is opposite in polarity from the frog (i.e., the rail is correct for the route the train is on, but the frog is reversed), and hitting it could short the rail to the frog through the wheel for a brief time (and if the train is moving slowly enough that this stops it, for longer).

You can also have a problem on the #4 (regardless of setting) if you somehow run past the frog from the non-selected route and short the point rail against the frog (it's energized opposite). But that one is hard to pull off, because you have to be moving fast enough to get past the dead section or the first short point, so the short is probably momentary as the wheel hurtles past the frog.  Again, if a wheel stops in the wrong place, the short can be long-lived.

On the #6 switch, neither of those problems can occur, because the point rail is either de-energized or the same polarity as the frog.

Another, more common, problem is that the point rails are both always energized to the polarity of the frog on #6 Kato switches.  This means that at the point, two rails of opposite polarity are only a couple of millimeters apart. An out-of-gauge or derailed wheel can touch both and cause a short.

The double-crossover acts like a collection of #6 switches, and has this last risk, but not the others.

I have a page of diagrams showing measurements I made a while back, using a multimeter as a continuity checker to see how current flowed within a switch disconnected from the layout. 

On DC, the power pack's circuit breaker should handle these shorts, and I've never encountered a DC pack that didn't have some kind of protection against shorts. They're just too easy to cause. Some, like Kato's, need a manual reset.  Others, like MRCs, auto-reset after a brief time, which is a bit more risky.

On DCC, the higher current can be problematic.  A circuit breaker in the command station should catch this in time to prevent damage, but a high-resistance path (i.e., dirty sectional track with few feeders) coupled with the default high setting of such central circuit breakers (often 5 Amps) can lead to problems.  I've seen photos online of people who melted truck assemblies due to a DCC short. This is one reason power bus wiring with lots of feeders is recommended with DCC.

I will look at your whole story soon, but the frog on my #4 switch really is black and looks plastic even though the one on the photo on your website doesn't.

On DC, the power pack's circuit breaker should handle these shorts, and I've never encountered a DC pack that didn't have some kind of protection against shorts. They're just too easy to cause. Some, like Kato's, need a manual reset.  Others, like MRCs, auto-reset after a brief time, which is a bit more risky.

Interesting.  If the frog is black, it's almost certainly plastic.  I'll have to go look in some local store(s) and see what their stock looks like.  It's been a couple of years since I bought any new switches, and perhaps they've changed the design. But I can't see why they would. The powered frog is an issue in the #4 when the switch is set to make the inner rails live, but you can "fix" that by setting the switch to work the same way as a #6.

However, from photos on their site, Kato used a plastic frog on the Wye switch, so they may have incorporated this change into updated versions of the older switches.

Live frogs are disliked (by those who dislike them; plenty of people are in favor of them) because they need more wiring, but since Kato does that internal to the switch it's not an issue with them. Older live-frog switches that predated DCC also had some other problems.

Dead frogs are disliked (again, by those who dislike them), because the "dead" zone can be a problem for locos with single-axle power pickup.  I think that kind of design is less common today than it used to be, and flywheels that help them coast past a dead zone are more common now. But for sound-equipped stock any loss of power is a big problem, so such locos can have problems even with flywheels.  I had a couple (HO) that were single-axle retro-fitted with DCC sound, and the decoder would go through a long and obvious "reboot" process each time they hit an unpowered frog.

I used to hate my Walthers/Shinohara pre-DCC HO live-frog turnouts.  And I wasn't the only one.  Live frogs got a lot of bad press back when DCC was just starting to catch on in the U.S. (I don't know about experience elsewhere). Wiring the frogs for switched power with a Tortoise was incredibly hard, becacuse the switch tried to power the frog (badly, which is why I had to wire them) and could short if the switch wasn't modified before the frog feed was wired.  With Kato I have none of that and I've never had any problem with my live-frog Kato #6 turnouts on DCC.

Weird is though that there is a screw underneath the turnout for the frog power, and it's even set as "On". I don't think it's black metal either, it looks so much like plastic I'm 99% sure it is. I attached some photos of the switches to this post from different light angles to hopefully clear the confusion.

Dead frogs are disliked (again, by those who dislike them), because the "dead" zone can be a problem for locos with single-axle power pickup.

That's why I prefer a metal frog, especially if I can turn the power on and off on it with Kato's.

those do look different than i remember. ill have to dig out the few #4s that are lurking some where in one of our track boxes and compare!

the screw issue goes way back and been confusing for a long time, they changed the instructions a couple of times on it and also it sounds like they recently reversed the printing on the switch itself.

jeff

They're clearly different from mine, but the black of the frog looks different from the black of the guard rails (which always were plastic).  I think I'm going to the store today...

The plastic frog looks different from the guardrails indeed, but I think they are plastic after all.

The only thing I can lastly note is that my V4 set came from the European distributor (Noch) and with the US cardboard box and manuals.

I went to me LHS today.  I'd been planning a visit to stock up on paint and other supplies, this just motivated me to go sooner.  They sell a lot of Unitrack, so they turn over their inventory more quickly than many stores.  All of their #4 switches had the new black frog. The Wye's also had a black frog, although I'll get to that below.  None of the #6 switches had a black frog; they were the same silver color of my existing switches, and the crossovers were also silver.  I picked up both a Wye and a new #4 for testing with my multimeter.

However, while the Wye has a plastic frog, the frog of the #4 is actually conductive blackened metal, and wired just like the ones diagrammed on my page for the older switches.  The screws came set to "non-power routing", meaning that the middle rail is only live on the selected route, and the other is dead (the reverse of what I'd expect that term to mean).

Now the Wye is interesting.  It too has set screws on the back, although it lacks one for making the frog live, since the frog is plastic.  But it comes set to "power routing" by default.  However, on this one "power routing" means what "non-power routing" means on the #4 (ah, consistency, where art thou?). So the non-selected middle rail is dead.  Otherwise, it's identical in function to the #4.

I swapped the screws around, and the function changed as expected on both.  They really are labeled the reverse of each other.

The packaging is bilingual, marked for both Kato and Kato USA.  It's possible they sell a different variant elsewhere, or that the V4 set has a unique switch, but it seems unlikely.

Thanks!

Kato should really make some things clear about this all, it's really confusing and inconsistent. Perhaps the frog on my #4s are blackened metal after all, but it's such weird material that I can't confirm this. I would have preferred if they just had used the metal as they did previously, it also looks better IMO.

I agree. Blackened metal could be considered prototypical for a mainline (well-used rail without a lot of braking occuring tends to be gray, not rusty). Micro Engineering "weathered" flex track looks black to me, so the frog would look good with that kind of track. But that only works if ALL of the rails of the switch are black. Making just the frog black is a very strange choice.

One test for plastic vs metal is to tap one of the plastic guardrails with the tip of a small screwdriver (like the #0 phillips needed to change the set screws), then tap the frog. If they make the same sound, the frog is plastic.  If the frog makes a louder, sharper sound, it's metal.

Ken,

Maybe the #4 writing cast on the bottom has never been corrected after all, since the current version you just bought seems to still be marked backwards. Does anyone have two switches, with one having the writing reversed to the opposite positions than the other's? A photo would be nice...

Rich K.