Wiring a Kato Unitrack Double Crossover

[Sir Madog]

I´d like to connect the two loops on my planned layout with a double crossover made by Kato. How do I wire this beast so I have two separate circuits?

[inobu]

It's really hard to answer without seeing a diagram of your proposed layout segment.

When you say two separate circuit...............in reference to what? the layout or the loop..........also is it a return loop?

The crossover is wired different and does not necessarily switch all rails is the same manner as the #4 and #6's  

A diagram will give a visual that will identify the key wiring points.

Inobu  

[Darklighter]

You don't have to modify it to have separate circuits, the isolation is already built-in.
http://www.noch.de/kato/pdf/AnleitungMaster-undVariations-Sets.pdf (Page 6, German)

[Sir Madog]

That is exactly the info I was looking for - thank you, Darklighter

[nik_n_dad]

one thing to remember is that you need to feed power to all four tracks on the double crossover.  Obviously you need to keep polarity consistent between loops

[inobu]

It's really hard to answer without seeing a diagram of your proposed layout segment.

When you say two separate circuit...............in reference to what? the layout or the loop..........also is it a return loop?

The crossover is wired different and does not necessarily switch all rails is the same manner as the #4 and #6's  

A diagram will give a visual that will identify the key wiring points.

Inobu

lol.....

[Sir Madog]

Here is the diagram:

[keitaro]

you don't need to do anything just plug and play.

always good though to have a feeder on the piece before and after the crossover as current drops on these due to the isolation points. As mentioned earlier anyway.

hope you have more luck with em than i have wih my tomix one.

nothing but issues (mostly with smaller loco's that have less ability to pick up)

Anyway like the plan.

[cteno4]

Ulrich,

if you were to wire in feeders on both loops around where your dividers are you would have great coverage for current on a small layout like this and be close enough tot he sidings to provide power down them well.

are you planning DC or DCC for this? if DC you have one little problem if you are going to use switch power routing for this with your little switch backs siding just above the steam engine servicing and the one directly below at the edge of the layout there. when you run an engine into the engine house and throw the switch to go back on that siding you will loose power coming from the feeder track there. you could put a jumper from just before the joint to both the sidings at the top there, but that will mean you only get to have one engine on that whole two sidings at one time. this is the few things you bump your head into if you plan to just use the power routing feature of the points to do your power control...

next option is to isolate the sidings and feed power to them individually with a control panel and some toggle switches.

cheers

jeff

[inobu]

Sir Madog,

I think I see what you are aiming for but I'm not for sure. Based on what I see you need to power route the crossovers so you can switch the opposite halves of the loop. Allowing for two controllers to switch their far end loop via the crossovers. Most likely you will need to have the crossovers to flip flop in together to establish a constant full loop.   

I'm guessing.............. 2 circuits means two controller/power units each controlling a line. 

What is the operation you are planing to run, that might be easier than guessing.

Looks interesting though..... 

Inobu   




 

[inobu]

Sir,


This might be a possible configuration.

The challenge is getting to crossovers to power route.

More details...

The Red and Blue control tracks will allow you to switch onto either side of the far end loop. You have access into each yard. Red to orange or red to light blue as well as the blue line accessing Lt blue or orange.

The cross overs will have to be wired to flip flop.
Inobu


I thought I posted this before...getting old.

[Mudkip Orange]

I've always pondered this same thing. I'm surprised there's no "nick" in the outside rails for full power routing. Seems like it would make reversing moves difficult.

[inobu]

No need to power route the crossovers. Add a switch to control which feeder your controller will supply. Connect the feeder where it is labeled "Tap". Tying this switch in conjunction with the crossovers. The crossover switch throws the feeder switch.

That's the easier configuration. 

Inobu

[KenS]

Perhaps I'm just missing what you're suggesting, but with the Kato crossover you need to feed both tracks (or switch the instant the loco's power pickup crosses the middle) to move from one track to the other.  I usually use two controllers (connected to a point like the ones marked "tap"), and just set the throttles to the same position (you might need one set to the other direction depending on how you wired the rails).  You could also use a switch that allowed a throttle to be wired to either or both sides (a rotary selector with 3 positions) and set it to "both" to cross.

The weakness (and strength in some circumstances) of the Kato crossover is that it isn't power-routing, unlike their usual Unitrack switches.

[inobu]

Perhaps I'm just missing what you're suggesting, but with the Kato crossover you need to feed both tracks (or switch the instant the loco's power pickup crosses the middle) to move from one track to the other.  I usually use two controllers (connected to a point like the ones marked "tap"), and just set the throttles to the same position (you might need one set to the other direction depending on how you wired the rails).  You could also use a switch that allowed a throttle to be wired to either or both sides (a rotary selector with 3 positions) and set it to "both" to cross.

The weakness (and strength in some circumstances) of the Kato crossover is that it isn't power-routing, unlike their usual Unitrack switches.

I guess I look at things totally different than the norm.

The configuration that I'm suggesting allows dual operation, dual controllers that access the two yards individually. Switching the crossover indicates which yard the operator intends to navigate. Connecting the crossover switch to throw a relay that feeds the corresponding feeder eliminates the need for the preset controller you suggest.

The ideal is to route seamlessly with one controller per line but access each yard individually.

Inobu 
   

 

[KenS]

Ah, that's what you'd meant.  I'd missed the implied use of a relay to control the power switch from the same control that threw the turnout. That's a more elegant solution from an ease of use perspective, but a bit harder to wire up (unless you're already familiar with relays).  I prefer the simpler technique of dedicating a power pack to a track with double-track or a block approach with a manual switch per section of track to select the power pack if I need a bit more flexibility (or else go for real flexibility with DCC).  Trying to automatically set up routes with multiple power sources always seemed too complicated to me (but that's a matter of taste).

[Mudkip Orange]

What I don't get is how I can use the Kato double crossover for, say, a stub terminal without it shorting.

Here's the scenario. Suppose I start out with the setup in the below image. The tracks to the right are mainline and are usually energized. To the left is bumpers.

At first, I want to pull a train out of the bottom left track and run it off to the right. This requires switching tracks. But since the outside rails of the double crossover don't have any insulation, I have to put in an insulated joiner where the green square is.

Now suppose I have that insulated rail joiner installed. I can no longer feed that rail from the other side of the crossover. So now, let's say I want to bring in a train from the right and cross it over to the top left track. To do that I need to energize the bottom left track in order to feed the double crossover (I can't feed it from the right because of the insulated joiner). But in doing so, suppose there is already a train in that track, that train will hit the bumper because I've got both station tracks headed to the left.

[KenS]

Mudkip: it's not power-routing.  You can't feed power from upper to lower (or vice versa). And you can't feed from one end to the other on the same track because the inner rail is broken.  In your scenario you need feeders on all four tracks (the outside rails don't need a feeder on the left since it's continuous).

The left feeders can either be wired to the same source as the right, or can be controlled in some manner (e.g., my switch idea or inobu's relays).  If they aren't controlled, then you are correct that you can't isolate a train on the left lower track when running from the right lower to the left upper.  If they are controlled, then you probably need gaps somewhere on the outer tracks (I'd gap left of the switch if I wanted to isolate a train inside the stub).  This gets complicated because you still need to feed the rails inside the switch on that side, so you can wind up with even more feeders depending on how you wire it.

Here are a couple of diagrams showing what is connected to what in the two orientations you can get with the electric control (there are other variations if you throw one or more of the four switches manually). I probably should have called the top right red "R4" rather than R3 to avoid confusion, since it's not related to the lower right B3.

[Mudkip Orange]

If they aren't controlled, then you are correct that you can't isolate a train on the left lower track when running from the right lower to the left upper.

Thanks for the confirmation.

I should think if I ever get one of these I might just nick the outside rails in the middle so it becomes a simple matter of all sides powered individually. Not sure why Kato wouldn't do this to begin with, except perhaps ease of manufacturing.

[KenS]

Yeah, it's a very odd way to build something.

I hadn't thought of that, but cutting the outer rails with a cut-off wheel in a Dremel and then supergluing in a chunk of plastic as an insulator (a technique I used to use on flex track) might be a really good way to simplify some of my wiring.