T-track, but which dimensions?

[Densha]

Hey there,

I'm planning on making a little T-track layout. I don't have the time and money for it yet, but planning a bit can't hurt.
Firstly, I have a M1 Unitrack set, so I actually want to use the tracks included in that one too. The M1 set includes 315mm radius curved tracks, even though it's a bit wide for T-track, it should be doable. But I just can't get to find the right dimensions for a module with 315mm radius, I tried doing the maths myself but am not totally sure if it's right what I'm doing. I finally found a page on the internet (scroll to 'Corners for Alternate Track Spacing'), but it says "module size 14-3/8" ", and I have seriously no idea what this means apart from that it are inches since I'm using centimetres all my life. Is there anybody who knows how to interpret this?
I also read somewhere that it is better to make the module so that the track is 1mm off the module so that the other module fits better, I assume I have to change my dimensions of the module also a little bit when doing that?

[Salvatore]

Hi Densha....

I'm also in the process to planning and build a T-Trak module.

I don't know if you have checked "T-Trak.org" site. It has a lot of information about T-Trak modules (including dimension in milimeters.... since I'm Mexican I have also used metric system all my life):
http://www.t-trak.org/index.html

That's the "front page"..... more specifically, this other page has the dimensions (in inches and milimeters) for straight modules:
http://www.t-trak.org/straight,track.html

These two other pages have the information for corners (the first one is more complete, the other is more simplified):
http://www.t-trak.org/corners.html
http://www.t-trak.org/kit-corner.html

First thing you have to note is that there are two versions to build T-TraK modules (both straight and curved): BASIC Modules and ALTERNATE Modules. The diference between them is the rail track separation. Straight modules have the same dimensions in both cases. But corner modules have different dimensions, depending on whether they are Basic or Alternate.

In the straight modules diagram it is clearly indicated that "rail track extends 1 mm beyond module ends". I understand that is to facilitate assembly and disassembly of the modules.

I hope this info be useful for you.

Chava Garcia

[Densha]

Thanks a lot! That really helped me. I did know almost all dimensions, but couldn't find them for the alternate corners. Now I can adjust my plans a bit on it.

Also, after thinking about it a bit, does 14-3/8" actually mean 'fourteen and three eighths inches'?

[cteno4]

Densha,

as chava says the main distinction in ttrak is the two spacings, standard (straight tracks butt up against each other) and alternate (all 33mm).

the original japanese modules were the standard 25mm spacing for doing mainly streetcar stuff. the corners are an odd swing out curve (using r216 curves and s29 and s45 spacers) to work with the 25mm track spacing which is not part of the unitrak standard geometry. its and odd curve, but there are corners like this in japan actually in streetcar tracks. these make for modules 12.25" square roughly the same width as ttrak modules.

later when ttrak started to catch on in the us folks wanted to run bigger equipment and do more standard rr scenery so they moved to doing the unitrak 33mm spacing and thus you can use any radius curves you want from kato for the corners. the standard for most ttrak setups is to use the r282 amd r315 curves to make corners that are 14.375" square. you can actually make corners any size you want using larger or smaller radius elements for your own use, might or might not work in a show environments where most use the 14" square corners.

the main thing for your straight modules if you want to bring them to shows with other modelers is to find out what they are doing. you can also make a module to go from the 33mm spacing to the 25mm spacing to run both kinds of modules on the same layout.

might take a look at the australian ttrak group. basically the same stuff, but their stuff is all dimensioned in metric for you!

http://t-trak.nscale.org.au/guidelines

yell with more questions!

jeff

[cteno4]

Thanks a lot! That really helped me. I did know almost all dimensions, but couldn't find them for the alternate corners. Now I can adjust my plans a bit on it.

Also, after thinking about it a bit, does 14-3/8" actually mean 'fourteen and three eighths inches'?

yep 14-3/8" means 14" and 3/8" or 14.375" or about 365mm

quick trick for conversions is to just type them into google search

14 3/8 inches to mm

yeilds:

(14 3/8) inches = 365.12500 millimeters

english units are confusing when you are not use to them and even then they take some noodling!

cheers

jeff

[Salvatore]

Yes..... 14-3/8 means "14 inches plus 3/8 inches" and it's about 36.5 cm

1 inch = 2.54 cm

14 3/8 = 14.375 inches

(14.375 inches) x (2.54 cm/inch) =  36.5125 cm

[westfalen]

As Queensland state T-TRAK rep I was going to suggest looking at the Australian guidelines but someone beat me to it.

None of those funny fractions the yanks use down here mate. 

[cteno4]

what westfalen, you chaps down under never learned you your fractions in grade school?!  ;-p

cheers

jeff

[inobu]

Densha

Here is a link to anyrail it has a free track laying program/version that allows you to place 50 pieces of track how ever you want. It has all the unitrack pieces and easy to manage.

You should be able to design what you want.

Inobu

[westfalen]

what westfalen, you chaps down under never learned you your fractions in grade school?!  ;-p

cheers

jeff

The only thing I can remember from grade school is the 4-6-0's that ran on the coal mine branch a quarter mile away (sorry, 0.402km) until I was in third grade.

But seriously, the Australian T-TRAK guide is widely used by those in countries using the metric system like Germany and Sweden to name a couple. I have a Swedish translation of it done by a guy over there that I show to people at train shows to show that T-TRAK is a worldwide thing.

[Densha]

Densha,

as chava says the main distinction in ttrak is the two spacings, standard (straight tracks butt up against each other) and alternate (all 33mm).

the original japanese modules were the standard 25mm spacing for doing mainly streetcar stuff. the corners are an odd swing out curve (using r216 curves and s29 and s45 spacers) to work with the 25mm track spacing which is not part of the unitrak standard geometry. its and odd curve, but there are corners like this in japan actually in streetcar tracks. these make for modules 12.25" square roughly the same width as ttrak modules.

later when ttrak started to catch on in the us folks wanted to run bigger equipment and do more standard rr scenery so they moved to doing the unitrak 33mm spacing and thus you can use any radius curves you want from kato for the corners. the standard for most ttrak setups is to use the r282 amd r315 curves to make corners that are 14.375" square. you can actually make corners any size you want using larger or smaller radius elements for your own use, might or might not work in a show environments where most use the 14" square corners.

the main thing for your straight modules if you want to bring them to shows with other modelers is to find out what they are doing. you can also make a module to go from the 33mm spacing to the 25mm spacing to run both kinds of modules on the same layout.

might take a look at the australian ttrak group. basically the same stuff, but their stuff is all dimensioned in metric for you!

http://t-trak.nscale.org.au/guidelines

yell with more questions!

jeff

Ah, right. I presumed 25mm was the spacing used by the 126mm switches and 33mm by the 186mm switches, but that's not quite right. So 33mm spacing will be the one I will be using at all my modules. Two 365mm wide modules fit exactly at my table, so that's also good.
I have absolutely no idea if there are any (Japanese) train modellers in the Netherlands who work with T-track, so I guess I should just go with 33mm.

I basically got the whole idea of T-track from Sir Madog's layout, I liked it so much and started googling upon it and found out that it was exactly how I wanted to create a little layout to test my abilities before starting to a larger on his layout. I found a page about his layout on JRM, and there was a link to a website I found somewhere at that page.
I prefer the width of 15cm over 30cm, at least 30cm is much to wide for a small rural Japanese layout I'm planning to do. I guess I could better make the straight modules also 310mm long like that site implies and use a 248+64mm track instead of 248+62 since it's much easier to do the maths and cut the wood that way. He used 100mm as height, which I think is also good.
I also don't plan to make the bases of the modules extravagant, and I like the idea of just 3 parts of wood, and maybe some blocks of wood in the corners to make it more firm.

Also, the main line of the layout is going to be a single track, no double track since I don't like that on small layouts and it's going to be rural after all. So the corners will be like that too.

Thanks a lot! That really helped me. I did know almost all dimensions, but couldn't find them for the alternate corners. Now I can adjust my plans a bit on it.

Also, after thinking about it a bit, does 14-3/8" actually mean 'fourteen and three eighths inches'?

yep 14-3/8" means 14" and 3/8" or 14.375" or about 365mm

quick trick for conversions is to just type them into google search

14 3/8 inches to mm

yeilds:

(14 3/8) inches = 365.12500 millimeters

english units are confusing when you are not use to them and even then they take some noodling!

cheers

jeff

I know the google trick, but it didn't work with 14-3/8, it did with 14.375. I do have a liner from a British museum railway with cm and inches though, it comes a bit in handy.

Densha

Here is a link to anyrail it has a free track laying program/version that allows you to place 50 pieces of track how ever you want. It has all the unitrack pieces and easy to manage.

You should be able to design what you want.

Inobu

As a Dutchman I already knew of the program, I've been designing a bit with it for a pretty long time now. They said they would update the program with the new wye switch of Kato in January, but still haven't done it.

[cteno4]

Densha,

the 25mm spacing is not in kato geometry at all. you wont get any switches that will make a crossover between them unless you were to do some hacking and whacking to them to cut them back to do this. the #4 (r481 124mm long)) switches will cross over 33mm tracks directly if turnouts are butted right up to each other. the #6 (r718 / 186mm long) go to a 49mm spacing if used for a cross over.

the 25 was just done to get the tracks close to each other for simulating dense street car track.

if you dont think you are going to run with others, then you may wan to take sir maddog's route and just do you own modules. then you can wander things around as you like. you could plan it out as a sectional layout where you have a layout in mind and plop the track plan down on some modules to split it up into convenient places. then you can always come back in and add modules at any joint later to expand.

the only down side with the ttrak (or any modular) standard is that things can get pretty boring being straight straight straight for the most point in smaller setups. in ttrak you can cheat and have modules that swing the tracks to the center or rear of the module, just have to have other modules that will work with the track in the center or back and of course another one to bring it back to the standard if you are running with others.

the main concept of ttrak was for folks to get together and make larger setups sharing modules, less for doing your own at home, but many do use their ttrak at home as loops or some have them built into a larger layout.

first thing is to fiddle with a track planning software some, second is (and before you make your mind up), get some of the track that you are pretty sure you will be using, and set it up on a table and see if the setup is satisfying before building bases and nailing stuff down. the great advantage of unitrak is you can play like this and get use to what you are going to build. its hard sometimes to really get the feel of how it will be playing with trains on a track plan. you can also mockup your scene ideas with some cardboard taped up for buildings and crumpled paper for hills and such. really is a great way to help visualize how you will do your scenes. even frank gehry works this way!

cheers

jeff

[Densha]

That about the (switch) spacing was already clear to me, but thanks anyway for the explanation.

Maybe I'll ask around a bit about T-track in that topic about a Benelux Japanese train 'club'. Maybe there are people somewhere here who are already doing T-track modules or are also planning to do so. Most guides for T-track all have the same dimensions, the length is always the same (maybe a mm or two larger sometimes), the width should be 15cm or 30cm, and the curved parts are fixed because there aren't many possibilities in them. I personally prefer track positioning of 3cm from the side of the track bed to the end of the wood, since I just don't like having weird lengths like 3,4 cm for track positioning and 308mm for a straight module, even though the latter one comes in handy when designing the layout, making those modules is fairly annoying that way I think.

I think I'll first start with a little station on a double sized module (not even room for it, my planned station takes up three modules, will probably do it some other way then for the moment), four curved modules and two normal sized straight modules, that will fit exactly on my table. After that I can decide what I'm going to do then.

I will take the advice. It is even possible to print out the track parts with Anyrail, so I don't even have to buy parts when doing that. It's not exactly the same, but it's possible at least.

[cteno4]

Densha,

there are a few netherlander japanese rail modelers on the list, martijn for one, that may be able to point you to some others.

printing out the track 1:1 does help give an idea, but you cant run your trains on it! mocking things up really does help though. also helps you figure what depth you want/need for your scene ideas.

some clubs are looser on letting folks have the distance from the front of the  module to the front track be a bit off spec if there is a reason for it. you can also pop out further for a special detail as well. it really depends on the group. some like to have the rules all the way to the color of the box, etc, others are really loose. the idea on keeping a standard distance of the tracks from the front is so that you dont have the front module edge bobbing in and out all over the place. rear is not as important as that moving in and out is not as distracting as the front edge.

you can also do shorter or longer modules that are not multiples of the standard module length, you just have to have pairs of them so they can be on either side of a run to make it come up even at the corners.

the only hard and fast thing that has to happen to play with others is have their track spacing on the ends (ie 25 or 33mm) and be able to get your module to the same height as theirs. rest is as i say up to your local group.

33mm spacing works better for interurban or private right of way tracks in towns with smaller dmus and emus. the 25 works better if you are doing city trams with tighter track spacing. all up to the scenes you want to do and the trains you want to run.

have fun with it! keep us posted on your noodling!

cheers,

jeff

[Densha]

I already posted something in the topic I was talking about, Martijn was the one who started it so I guess he will read it sooner or later.

I know, I can still put my trains on the paper, but it doesn't have any height either. So it's not perfect but at least a cheap solution I guess.

I'm planning on doing a railway, not a tramway, so it will be 33mm, that's one thing I'm sure of.

7cm high is the perfect height I think, I see almost all clubs use it, I don't really mind about it but it has to be set indeed. After visualizing it a bit I think having a depth of 15-30cm doesn't really matter, since the smallest curved module is 31cm after all.

[cteno4]

Densha,

good you have a decision on your trains to set the track spacing. 33 does have more options!

on the height of the module itself you can do different things there. the ttrak standard of 2.75" (7cm) is waaay too tall in my opinion. i have made all my street car modules only 25mm high. i find the front edge at that size on a standard module gives a nice frame size without over powering the module scene. the big fronts i think become really distracting to the eye. its also hard to get a nice finish on a surface that large. its just big enough where the eye starts to notice things and by trimming it down a lot much less chance of that.

instead of propping each module up on bolt legs i rest them on two long strips of wood 4 modules long that are like 20mm w x 40mm high. these two strips are connected by a few pieces of wood dowel to hold them apart about 10cm. this makes a long girder. then i put 4 of the bolt inserts into this girder. this way i can plop 4 modules on top of the girder and then level all 4 up with just the 4 leveling bolts in the girder support instead of 16 individual module bolt legs! also the girder tucks back about 3cm so it make the module float a bit but still have that kick in support look, like the toe kick on cabinets or furniture. makes it float but does not leave a totally visual blank space. see the picture below and you can see why this can make your life much easier if you have to set up on an incline! we leveled 16 modules with 16 bolts total on this setup where the tables were on a slope that had about a 15cm vertical change from one end to the other! if we had done that with individual module legs it would have been 64!

plus i like the fact i save like 5cm per module vertically when i store the modules.

also on your module construction folks have done all sorts of stuff, you dont have to build the standard plywood box. some folks use 12mm foam core, others planks of shelf wood material like 20mm thick, others big slabs of just extruded polystrene foam like 40-50mm thick. just need to figure out how to make it so that it wont warp with time. the thin 6mm foam core does not work well as it tends to warp too much (usually from moisture from scenery building and weight) even with good support under it. i make mine using 3mm plywood for the top and the front and back edges have small rabit joints cut into them to join the plywood into. makes for very strudy modules that are super fast to build (time is in milling the edge stock). the same could be done with simple piece of thin ply with simple wood moulding strips glued to the front and back as well w/o the fancy joint as modules dont take that much abuse!

http://japanrailmodelers.org/photos/thinttrak/index.html

cheers

jeff

[Salvatore]

in ttrak you can cheat and have modules that swing the tracks to the center or rear of the module, just have to have other modules that will work with the track in the center or back and of course another one to bring it back to the standard if you are running with others.

Densha, check here for some T-Trak configuration ideas (as Jeff states, the only limit is your imagination):

1. http://www.t-trak.org/layouts.html (the basic arrangements)
2. http://www.t-trak.org/l-layouts.html ("L" shaped layouts)
3. http://www.t-trak.org/u-layouts.html ("U" shaped layouts)
4. http://www.t-trak.org/star-1.html (star junction layouts)
5. http://www.t-trak.org/ntrak-diamond.html (the "Diamond Mill" junction)
6. http://www.t-trak.org/t-trak-future.html ("a possibility for T-Trak in the future")

Chava.

[Sir Madog]

Regarding module height:

With those "low-rider" modules you can´t do this:

[cteno4]

Ahhh, but street car scenes rarely have those dips!

That's why the girder is used to raise the low rider modules up to a higher level so you can then easily interface with deeper modules like your revene module!

Cheers

Jeff

[cteno4]

Also check out the offset modules (scroll down the page).

http://t-trak.cincy.home.insightbb.com/TTOC/New.Index.htm?AAO

This is what I was talking about moving the tracks around some.

Jeff

[Densha]

Densha,

good you have a decision on your trains to set the track spacing. 33 does have more options!

That's even more better!

on the height of the module itself you can do different things there. the ttrak standard of 2.75" (7cm) is waaay too tall in my opinion. i have made all my street car modules only 25mm high. i find the front edge at that size on a standard module gives a nice frame size without over powering the module scene. the big fronts i think become really distracting to the eye. its also hard to get a nice finish on a surface that large. its just big enough where the eye starts to notice things and by trimming it down a lot much less chance of that.

also on your module construction folks have done all sorts of stuff, you dont have to build the standard plywood box. some folks use 12mm foam core, others planks of shelf wood material like 20mm thick, others big slabs of just extruded polystrene foam like 40-50mm thick. just need to figure out how to make it so that it wont warp with time. the thin 6mm foam core does not work well as it tends to warp too much (usually from moisture from scenery building and weight) even with good support under it. i make mine using 3mm plywood for the top and the front and back edges have small rabit joints cut into them to join the plywood into. makes for very strudy modules that are super fast to build (time is in milling the edge stock). the same could be done with simple piece of thin ply with simple wood moulding strips glued to the front and back as well w/o the fancy joint as modules dont take that much abuse!

http://japanrailmodelers.org/photos/thinttrak/index.html

I agree with you that it would be distracting, but for some reason I don't like it so low. But it could be made the way sir madog does it too, so without fronts and only some supporting wood on the sides. (That's not the best English ever, but I hope you understand what I mean.) That is less stable though and could cause that it bends over a long time, I don't expect so after painting it with that certain stuff I forgot the name of. Also it depends of the thickness of the used wood of course. I think I'll be using MDF by the way, because plywood is actually more expensive here.

instead of propping each module up on bolt legs i rest them on two long strips of wood 4 modules long that are like 20mm w x 40mm high. these two strips are connected by a few pieces of wood dowel to hold them apart about 10cm. this makes a long girder. then i put 4 of the bolt inserts into this girder. this way i can plop 4 modules on top of the girder and then level all 4 up with just the 4 leveling bolts in the girder support instead of 16 individual module bolt legs! also the girder tucks back about 3cm so it make the module float a bit but still have that kick in support look, like the toe kick on cabinets or furniture. makes it float but does not leave a totally visual blank space. see the picture below and you can see why this can make your life much easier if you have to set up on an incline! we leveled 16 modules with 16 bolts total on this setup where the tables were on a slope that had about a 15cm vertical change from one end to the other! if we had done that with individual module legs it would have been 64!

That's a great tip, but I doubt it will be very useful at home, except for that those bolts don't have to be bought and placed.

plus i like the fact i save like 5cm per module vertically when i store the modules.

That's not something I really care about, but less is always better, in this case at least.

in ttrak you can cheat and have modules that swing the tracks to the center or rear of the module, just have to have other modules that will work with the track in the center or back and of course another one to bring it back to the standard if you are running with others.

Densha, check here for some T-Trak configuration ideas (as Jeff states, the only limit is your imagination):

1. http://www.t-trak.org/layouts.html (the basic arrangements)
2. http://www.t-trak.org/l-layouts.html ("L" shaped layouts)
3. http://www.t-trak.org/u-layouts.html ("U" shaped layouts)
4. http://www.t-trak.org/star-1.html (star junction layouts)
5. http://www.t-trak.org/ntrak-diamond.html (the "Diamond Mill" junction)
6. http://www.t-trak.org/t-trak-future.html ("a possibility for T-Trak in the future")

Chava.

That's really a gigantic one, the last one.

Regarding module height:

With those "low-rider" modules you can´t do this:

I was also planning on making a bridge module sometime, I almost forgot about that the height of the module also depends on it of course. Thanks for the reminder.

Ahhh, but street car scenes rarely have those dips!

That's why the girder is used to raise the low rider modules up to a higher level so you can then easily interface with deeper modules like your revene module!

Cheers

Jeff

But I wasn't planning on making a streetcar layout, but a railway, you know. If possible I want to build something Enoden-like sometime too, but that's mostly single track, and that is only a far future plan.

I guess so, but if all modules are the same height it doesn't really matter (except for uneven floors, but you already came up with a solution for that).

Also check out the offset modules (scroll down the page).

http://t-trak.cincy.home.insightbb.com/TTOC/New.Index.htm?AAO

This is what I was talking about moving the tracks around some.

Jeff

You mean the curved modules for compensating things when having larger T-track layouts?

[cteno4]

Also check out the offset modules (scroll down the page).

http://t-trak.cincy.home.insightbb.com/TTOC/New.Index.htm?AAO

This is what I was talking about moving the tracks around some.

Jeff

You mean the curved modules for compensating things when having larger T-track layouts?

no i was referring to having the tracks on the module move from the front of the module to the middle or rear of the module for a few modules. by doing this you can mix up the loop a little bit so its not the perfect oval all the time! also nice as you can flip to having the majority of your scenery on the front of the module (instead of behind the tracks) for a few modules. this also then lets the train be a bit hidden for a short while which is also really good on smaller loops to make the plan feel less like a loop. folks always love seeing the train then pop back out again.

yeah leveling and leveling bolts are usually an issue when you are on what ever surface at an event and also with other modelers who's module heights might be a bit different.

there are lots of ways to skin the cat on you module construction! I was only throwing all these different ideas out there for you to see and think about what you want/need for your modules! again to run with others you just really only have to get the track spacing and height to match up!

Sir Mad dog's modules are a great system for very simple construction from like 18mm wood you can get at your lumber yard. minimal of cutting and assembly, you could even do it with a hand saw. they are nice as you can flip them over for the deep scenes as well. the 18mm thick wood should not bend/warp if its decent wood and the end plates should help that. just look for nice and dry pieces that are flat when you choose the wood. then also after you assemble it give it a coat of some sort of sealer (water sealer, varnish, paint, whatever) and that should help prevent it from warping later.

here is sir mad dog's article on how he made his modules

http://japanrailmodelers.org/pages/modelingjapan/minimodules.html

lots of pictures

http://japanrailmodelers.org/photos/minimodules/index.html

some other scene ideas from philip cook

http://japanrailmodelers.org/photos/_ttrak-philip/index.html

enjoy!

[Densha]

Also check out the offset modules (scroll down the page).

http://t-trak.cincy.home.insightbb.com/TTOC/New.Index.htm?AAO

This is what I was talking about moving the tracks around some.

Jeff

You mean the curved modules for compensating things when having larger T-track layouts?

no i was referring to having the tracks on the module move from the front of the module to the middle or rear of the module for a few modules. by doing this you can mix up the loop a little bit so its not the perfect oval all the time! also nice as you can flip to having the majority of your scenery on the front of the module (instead of behind the tracks) for a few modules. this also then lets the train be a bit hidden for a short while which is also really good on smaller loops to make the plan feel less like a loop. folks always love seeing the train then pop back out again.

I totally agree.

yeah leveling and leveling bolts are usually an issue when you are on what ever surface at an event and also with other modelers who's module heights might be a bit different.

there are lots of ways to skin the cat on you module construction! I was only throwing all these different ideas out there for you to see and think about what you want/need for your modules! again to run with others you just really only have to get the track spacing and height to match up!

Sir Mad dog's modules are a great system for very simple construction from like 18mm wood you can get at your lumber yard. minimal of cutting and assembly, you could even do it with a hand saw. they are nice as you can flip them over for the deep scenes as well. the 18mm thick wood should not bend/warp if its decent wood and the end plates should help that. just look for nice and dry pieces that are flat when you choose the wood. then also after you assemble it give it a coat of some sort of sealer (water sealer, varnish, paint, whatever) and that should help prevent it from warping later.

here is sir mad dog's article on how he made his modules

http://japanrailmodelers.org/pages/modelingjapan/minimodules.html

lots of pictures

http://japanrailmodelers.org/photos/minimodules/index.html

some other scene ideas from philip cook

http://japanrailmodelers.org/photos/_ttrak-philip/index.html

enjoy!

I guess I'll just go with an easy option eventually, I've liked sir madog's way all time, and since it's cheap I think I'm going with that. There's still enough time to think about it though, since I'm not going to start soon anyway.
I don't know about the bolts though, I actually don't want to bother installing them, but it may come in handy. I haven't ever put bolts in wood, so a stupid question: is it actually possible to just insert the bolts at a later moment when it is needed? So, doesn't it need anything from the side where the scenery is?

Then there's just the point of the track spacing left, I'll guess I'll await Martijn's reply or maybe I'll send him a PM to ask if he knows some Dutch people with Japanese model trains.

[cteno4]

the mad dog method is great to get going fast, simple and cheap construction from pretty easy to find materials and no fancy table saw really required.

yes you could add the inserts later. good way to keep cost down and add later if needed. i would definitely drill the holes for them when you build the modules, though, as drilling them straight will not be easy on its side once you have stuff on top of the module. also hard to hold the module steady while drilling if you have stuff now on top of the module. if you have access to a drill press it will make it really fast and easy, but you could use a hand drill with no problems, just try to keep the drill very vertical. i would assemble the ends on the module and then drill the holes for the inserts like 1-2cm back from the ends of the end piece (and centered in the 18mm width). the inserts are very easy to screw in later with a hex wrench or screw driver (depending on the type you get).

screw in inserts here in the us cost like 0.2-0.4 euro a piece if you buy them in small quantities at the hardware store so they can add up! i get them for like 0.1 euro or less each when i buy them in bulk of 100 or more on line. the good ones just use a hex wrench to screw them into your hole. of course in europe you will use metric ones, like ones for 5-6mm dia bolts. not sure what the common one there is like our 1/4" bolt (6mm). you dont want to get the T nut style that you have to hammer into the hole as you wont want to be hammering on your module once you have stuff on it!

you also then need bolts and those can add up as well! i found lots of bolts cheap at a second hand hardware store so you might look around to see if there are any places like that. they dont need to be great quality bolts.

like you said at home you dont need the bolts if you have a nice even surface to go on. just need to make sure to make all the modules to the same height. if for some reason the modules dont quite line up height wise you can always glue some little cardboard or felt shims on the bottom edge to even things up!

if you needed to show with others w/o the bolts you could always cheat and just use hunks of cardboard or little wood blocks to shim up modules as needed to fit with each other or deal with unlevel or warped tables. not pretty but doable!

if there is no local active ttrak group then i would get started with what you want to do on track spacing (ie the 33mm) and how far back from the front you want your tracks. if others join in they can either follow your lead or do the standard and the front edge is just out or in a little from theirs depending on what you do. if you end up doing stretches of modules with an over all scene that visually goes together then your modules will be all together anyway if you show with others added in so no real matter the front moves in or out a little.

you can also do smaller corners with the 33mm spacing using the r282 and r249 tracks. the 249 is a bit tight for bigger trains but fine for most smaller things.

main thing is to get going and get something going for you to play with and then take to some event then and perhaps you will excite others to jump in. that is what has happened here in the us and in australia, one guy does a little loop and takes it to their local train club or train show and a bunch more chaps see it and start making modules and then before you know it you have a little club going!

cheers

jeff

[Densha]

That last post helped me really much!

I guess I'll just do it that way than, I'll prepare the modules for bolts. But I don't totally get an image of what you mean, I get what you mean by the 1-2cm, but not the "centered in the 18mm width" part. I do have a drilling machine/drill press by the way, so that makes things a bit easier and faster so I can start on the scenery faster.

I don't really know about much events/shows where I live though. I know there is a show once a year in a neighboring town, and once a year one in Utrecht which is the main train show of the country, but I don't know about other (little) shows, I guess I should ask around a bit sometime.

[cteno4]

sorry, tough putting that in words! below is a thousand words worth in a drawing of the bottom of the end where the bolt insert holes go.

some folks dont bother with using inserts. they just drill a hole just a bit smaller than a standard hex style nut. then they just carefully bang the nut into the hole with a bit of glue around the edge of the hole (epoxy would be the best).

advantage - nuts are cheap

disadvantage - have to be careful not to get glue into the threads, have to hammer them carefully to get them nice and flat.

look around to see what you can get for the bolt inserts. try the local hardware store and buy a sample so you will know what hole to drill or see whats avaliable online to you in europe and the specs will usually tell you the size of the hole to drill.

you dont need ultra heavy bolts. the us standard of like 6mm bolts is actually a bit of overkill, was just done since they are super standard and cheap to get. sure something like 3-4mm would work fine as well. see what you can get and the pricing to plan ahead!

ask around about shows. or if there is some local cultural event that has something to do with japan/asia that might be a place to take it and find others interested in playing like this! at least folks will enjoy the japanese layout, we do a couple of japanese (non train) events each year with our japanese club layout and folks love it even if they are not train folks. the great thing about a little modular layout like this is its pretty easy to get to a show and setup and does not take up a lot of space.

cheers

jeff

[Densha]

I guess it's also because of my ignorance in English carpenter jargon. And because of that I totally don't get what you just wrote on those bolts.
First, the picture I uploaded is a bolt, right? Nuts are those things that have to be put on them?
What exactly is an insert?
What do you mean with a "thread" in this case?
I also don't get how to interpret to picture you uploaded, from what side is it?

I get the part of the sizes.

When my time allows it again I guess I'll ask around a bit.

Edit: I guess I get now where the bolt will be put into, from the image here. Also this post from Sir madog from the IG-Nippon forums is quite helpful.

[cteno4]

Densha,

sorry its hard to describe this even between two english as a first language people! no worries!

the bolt is the long thing with the ridges on it. the ridges are called the threads. there are threads around the bolt and on the inside of the nut. see the picture labels.

the threaded inserts are basically nuts that are long and have big threads on the outside of them. these can then get screwed into a hole in the wood and a bolt can be screwed into the insert.

instead of buying the fancy insert some folks just glue a nut into the hole in the wood to put the bolt into.

this video might help see some of what im talking about with the inserts.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/tIhEqoKE8Dc" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/tIhEqoKE8Dc</a>

his inserts in this video dont have the little hex insert fitting that most do (see the other picture below) that let you use a hex driver to screw the insert into the hole in the wood. this guy uses a bolt and nut to hold the insert to screw it into the wood, but more work...

hope this helps and is not more confusing. please ask questions happy to help. also might chat with your local hardware store as if they have a good person there they can show you an insert and how it works. maybe pick up 4 and 4 bolts and just do it in your first module to figure it all out and just drill the holes then in the rest to add them later if needed.

i can also just take a video of putting in an insert if that would help.

cheers

jeff

cheers

jeff

[cteno4]

also martjin could probably explain to you in dutch whats not making sense with my english here as well!

cheers

jeff

[Martijn Meerts]

Providing I have a clue what you wrote ;)


I'm still trying to figure out an easy, but sturdy way of connecting modules... But like most things, I tend to over think this as well, and end up with some crazy Nasa construction where something simple would've worked just fine..

(Kinda like the Nasa spending tons to come up with a pen that writes in space, whereas the Russians just used a pencil story ;))

[cteno4]

With small modules the unitrak joiners works fine to do the joining. On larger modules something really simple like a couple of pegs between the modules works great? Dirt simple except to keep the holes in the same place!

Jeff

[westfalen]

We find the Unijoiners do the job ok. One reason our club switched from N-track to T-TRAK modules for shows was the simplicity in setting up, just clip 'em together and when you're finished pull 'em apart.

These are a few shots I don't think I've posted here before of our last show back in October when another club joined us with their modules.

[Sir Madog]

Before I started to build the first modules, I also looked into various ways of joining the modules, other than just relying on the Unijoiners to do the job. I discarded all of them, and I am happy that I did.

I guess we all have a tendency to "over-engineer" our layouts. This just pushes up the cost. I was (and still am) intrigued by the simplicity of the Japanese interpretation of the T-Trak modular system and I can only recommend to keep it that simple. Just make sure that you use quality plywood, 15 mm so-called multiplex board or a marine grade does the perfectly. Have it cut to size either at your local home improvement store or at a carpenter´s. Building the "benchwork" is a matter of minutes, then.

Densha - before you get struck by analysis-paralysis, get a few lengths of track and build your first module!

[Densha]

@cteno4
I think I finally get what you mean!

@Martijn
I think also some clamps could be used for that. I am planning on ordering some to make building model buildings easier, and will look if they are useful for T-trak too when I finally made a module or two. It doesn't look great, but it's at least something, and it could be put at the back side.

@Sir Madog
After seeing Unitrack with unijoiners on my table they seems so firm that I think they will suffice for T-trak also.


I guess I'll take a look at the shop nearby then when I have time, and look around for those bolts, and ask and maybe buy some wood for a first module.

Also, I just noticed it's T-Trak and not T-track, maybe someone could change the topic title?

[cteno4]

Densha - before you get struck by analysis-paralysis, get a few lengths of track and build your first module!

i second this, helps to get things going! even if the first module ends up not working out, look at it as a practice run with very little investment. you can always scrape it all off and start over later if need be!

i also cut hunks of foam core (or you could use cardboard) to module sizes and spent a long time plopping buildings down on them and such to think about scene ideas and such. one way to plan ahead if you dont have modules built yet.

jeff

[Densha]

It was kinda hectic (and still is) so I didn't have any time yet to make a first module. I did make however a little design on the sizes. I think 10 cm is maybe too high, so I thought of making using the standard 7 cm. I can always use the bouts to get it to 10 cm to make it align with 10 cm high modules if I would find it too low after all.
I am planning on using MDF for the modules, what thickness do you recommend? I personally thought of 12 mm.
I'm also still not sure whether to make it 15 or 20 cm deep, but I'll probably go with 20 cm.

[Sir Madog]

Densha,

I don´t where you buy your Unitrack, but I found that S 64 lengths are much easier to get than the S 62 bits. A length of S 248 track plus one S 64 makes a total of 312 mm, minus 1 mm on each side makes a module length of 310 mm.

I still have a feeling that you are making things a little to complicated. The simple design I have adopted works nicely, if you use quality material for the "benchwork". I would definitively opt against using MDF, though. There is no advantage using that material, other than weight and cost, which can be neglected, given the little amount of square footage you need for a module. The disadvantage of MDF is that the joints may not be strong enough, as nails or screws don´t hold well.

[Densha]

I think I'm skipping the bouts for the moment, and stay with just the three plates, the first module is just an experiment anyway.
The reason I thought of using MDF was mainly because of the costs. I think I'll visit the shop today to ask what the prices will be. I have never personally used MDF, so I don't really know the differences. I have seen many people using it for their model railroad, but that weren't little modules like these which need to be strong of course. I should ask for triplex/multiplex for the other type of wood right?

I know there's a shop in a neighbouring town selling it, but I have never looked at their Unitrack assortment yet. So far I have seen the 62mm are sold in packs of 4 and 64mm in packs of 2, and that results in that the 62mm are cheaper. But that's trivial.
I mainly want to use 62mm tracks because I already have some of them and the variation sets also have them and I know that I can use all of the tracks in the V4 set. Doing so would be cheaper and easier. The modules do have to be 308mm long on the other side, but I don't think that's really a problem since I think the carpenter can cut them exactly as I want.

Edit: Fairly important I think, which thickness do you recommend for T-trak modules?

[westfalen]

Our Bible, The Australian T-TRAK Guidelines, recommends 6mm.

[Densha]

That's pretty thin if you ask me, I'm not planning on using anything to strengthen it, so I'll probably go with 1cm or so.

[IST]

That's pretty thin if you ask me, I'm not planning on using anything to strengthen it, so I'll probably go with 1cm or so.

It doesn't need. My T-trak modules are 6 mm thick also and its more than enough.

[Martijn Meerts]

I'd have to agree that you shouldn't use MDF. It's easy to work with, and cheaper, but regular nails and screws won't hold well. You could use glue and screws of course, or you'd have to use special MDF screws. Another problem is that when sawing/drilling MDF, the dust particles coming off it are very small and not the most healthy stuff.

9 or 12mm plywood (multiplex) should be a good option. 6mm is probably enough as well, but the thicker versions make it easier to mount height adjustment mechanisms should that be needed at some point.

As for the height, unless you want to build a module with a raving or some massive trestle bridge or something, you don't need a lot of height.

[Densha]

Okay, I decided to just go, and went and just bought the stuff to make a module. I decided to go for 15 cm width, 308 cm long, and 10 cm high. The reason why I thought having a higher module is better, is because the table I have and many other tables are too low to get a good view. And if it's not to my liking eventually I can decide to try to cut it off or just get rid of it.
Sadly enough the store made it almost 309 mm long and one of the 'legs' is not aligned completely correct, so again a mm was lost. Also the legs sort of bend to the outside, or in other words, they aren't in a 90 degrees angle, but in a ~95 degrees. And that results in more space between modules. I have used wood glue and nails, so the glue will probably get it a bit better with the clamps, but I don't get the other side like that.
I'm starting to think I'm actually not good in carpentry.

[cteno4]

Densha,

welcome to carpentry, notice try is in the word. its not something that comes to many folks in a total snap and it also depends a lot on your tools and materials. yes a good carpenter can make do with bad tools or materials, but it certainly makes things a lot harder. its also like most things like this just practice, practice, practice.

ive been doing carpentry now from probably like 46 years now (i started when i could swing a hammer as my dad had a big shop) and i still screw things up now and then! getting things cut to the mm is doable, but takes a decent saw and patience and time.

best thing to do is what you did, come up with the best thing you can on paper and then go buy the materials you think will work the best and build ONE. this will let you figure out what to do and not do in the process, what materials work, issues with your design etc. be prepared that you may have wasted $5 and an evening, but thats the investment in coming up with the right design. then go and build the second and usually thats it with maybe a little tweak, then you can try a larger number. believe me its worth spending a little time and money like this first and not jump whole in and try a bunch even if you have a lot of carpentry experience! carpentry is definitely something most anyone can learn with some guidance and patience and practice, so dont despair!

cutting lumber like this to nice square dimensions are almost impossible by hand unless you are well skilled and have the right pulls saws. you can do ok but your joint may be a bit ragded and need some sanding with a sanding block to get semi square. you can also patch the joint with putty to clean up any gaps. if not totally 90 degrees on your cuts you can do your nailing with the joint clamped at 90 so the nails and glue should then hold it at 90 and clean up any gaps with wood putty. there are some tricks you can try with a hand saw and larger blocks clamped across your cut line to help you keep the saw square and straight.

you really have to use a table saw really to cut this stuff if you want really square and straight cuts. hand ripping with a circular saw on smaller bits is tough and takes some time to learn how to do well and best if you use clamped guides for it. even then its never as clean as a table saw. unfortunately usually the lumber yard is only happy to do a very rough cut for you and never wants to get closer than a few mm for you. their saws can be of varying quality and adjustment (and the store person as well).

best to leave at least 1mm of extra on each end. getting things down to the mm is tough and if you get too tight its a problem. this gives you a little wiggle room as well if your leg pieces are not exactly 90 degrees. also gives you a tiny slot to shove a putty knife in to quickly pop two modules apart cleanly.

clamping while you glue and nail really helps. also you can drill small holes thru the top piece for your nails (just a tad smaller than the nail) and tap the nail thru till its just poking out the other side. this then lets you place it on top of the leg carefully and align it and just a little tap sets the like 0.5mm of nail head sticking out into the legs and will hold it in place, then drive the nails carefully.

do you have any friends with a shop in their garage with a table saw? or is there a school that you can sign up for a cheap night course in woodworking? that can be a great way to learn some more basics and practice and cut wood on a good saw. also great to have a good work area and the right tools. unfortunately with insurance many of those adult courses are either gone or expensive now.

another idea might be if you have your design down to go to a cabinetry shop and see if they would cut your boards for you if you wanted to make a few modules at once. to cut like 5 or 6 of those modules it would only take like 10 minutes. they might be nice and do it for like $10 or they may want an hour min and not worth it.

i think your next try might work better now, especially if you can find some where to cut your boards cleanly. for someone with a table saw its only minutes to make those cuts!

keep at it!

jeff

[Densha]

Thanks for the reply Jeff!

I didn't have any tool too get it in a 90 degrees angle, I did fix one before glueing and nailing, but it wasn't exact, hence it resulted into this. I think I'll try to look for something I can use for it, do you have any recommendation on that perhaps?
I think though that I should maybe include a little beam next time, so that it would get better aligned hopefully.

I do think of it like an investment like you say, but it's still frustrating that it didn't went as I wanted it to. I did get a little discount however, "because the boss also has model trains" said the assistant. Instead of €7,50 it costed me €6, with free nails.

Anyway, I'll wait a day or so until removing the clamps and just hope for the best. I'm going to paint the module anyway and try to finish it off as much as possible. A kind of stupid question: what kind of paint would you usually use in this case?

Unfortunately I don't have anyone who has a table saw, so far as I know.

[westfalen]

That's pretty thin if you ask me, I'm not planning on using anything to strengthen it, so I'll probably go with 1cm or so.

We've had nearly three years experience with T-TRAK now and have found it ok, most of our modules though, use 65x12mm pine as the frames with a 6mm top to bring the height to 71mm, close enough to the T-TRAK standard 70mm. From our N-TRAK days I guess we are in the habit of building sturdier modules than are needed with the smaller T-TRAK.

[cteno4]

Densha,

one trick to try and cut square with a hand saw is to clamp two hunks of something like what we call 2x4 (basically the framing wood for walls, like 50mm x 100mm in cross section) across your board on either side of the board right at your cut line. you need a couple of hunks a bit longer than your cut by like 100mm. then you can try to keep the saw blade as flush to the blocks as possible to keep it cutting straight and perpendicular to the board. you need to be careful not to cut into your blocks or your cut will wander. it will give you a better reference though to keep your cut square.

what tools do you have access to?

will the store do any cutting for you?

the first one or even two may be tosses but you can use the tops to try some scenery experiments on as well. you will find each time it gets better and better and easier and easier!

cheers

jeff

[Martijn Meerts]

The woodwork is the most annoying part usually (apart from ballasting perhaps :)) It takes a lot of time to get right, and even then it often doesn't end up being right after all.

Large bits I tend to have cut by the store I buy the wood, but even they don't always get the cuts right.

I know there are clamps which make it easy to hold pieces on a 90 degree angle. I don't have any myself, but I've been thinking about getting some for a while. I usually end up just measuring and the pre-drilling some holes before glueing and screwing everything in place.

[cteno4]

Corner clamps are quite fiddled to deal with. The simpler solution I have done when doing a lot of corner joints is to make an L shaped jig the length of the joint and like 10 cm on each leg. I clamp this on the inside of the joint with everything aligned, then you can drill, screw, nail w/o having to to hold while doing it.

Wood working does just take a lot of practice and a decent workshop and tools certainly makes it easier!

Jeff

[KenS]

Densha,

I think Jeff gave a good description of the issues, but I'll add my bit.

Getting a store to cut to size is very difficult, as most won't promise any kind of precision.  You are probably better off having them cut 3-5mm long, then marking the wood with a square (one of the essential tools) and using a wood file to trim the end and make it square.  It's a lot of work, but that's the tradeoff: time to do things by hand with care, or money for fancier time-saving tools (and lots of tools, since they tend to be specialized).

You can cut fairly square ends (with practice) with hand-held circular saw or a good saber saw and some clamps to hold the wood to a workbench (or table, if it's strong and you're very careful), but a miter saw is a really good investment. You don't need a fancy one, but you may want to get a larger one than you think you need.  Once you start making things, the bug can lead to making other things.

I'd suggest making yourself a workbench as a first step if you don't have one.  It doesn't have to be large, if you don't have room for a permanent one. Just 30cm x 1.5m and standing 20cm tall would be a large enough surface for many projects, and provide enough clearance at the edges.  Make the top from a flat board 2-4cm thick (or two sheets of clean plywood glued together) and overhang the edges 3-4cm, and attach it to a support structure that's solid and screwed to it from below so the top is clean.  There are ways to make a flatter top than using a board (boards are rarely as flat as you'd like),  but they generally require specialized tools. This gives you something to clamp to, pound and paint on, and otherwise abuse without damaging the furniture or floor.  If you have room, a larger freestanding workbench is much nicer of course.  Mine is store-bought, ~50cm x 2m, and I still find it small at times, but it's all I have room for.

Basic tools include a small metal square so you can mark and check corners for squareness, a good coarse wood file, drill, screwdrivers, and C-clamps, and some kind of saw (personally, I started with a hand-held circular saw, but I might get a miter saw first if I was starting over).  I also like having a couple of bar clamps when gluing box structures together. Always clamp things while gluing; I have a lot of different kinds of clamps...

On the subject of corner-clamps, I have a bunch of these, and swear by them. You can work without them, as Jeff noted, and they won't work for really small projects. And if you aren't careful, you can still make a non-square joint (the metal square comes in handy again for checking).  But I get much faster and accurate results with them than I did before I discovered them. I made eight 60cm x 120cm box structures in a weekend when constructing my layout, and I couldn't have done it without those clamps.

And yeah, expect to make mistakes.  I've been at this for decades and I still make mistakes (usually by being too impatient to carefully think things through before picking up a tool).