Dodgy Kato Catalog - Am I Being Picky?

[The_Ghan]

Yesterday I received my HS order containing the Kato 10000 series, the Tomix Dr Yellow (soon to be heading to webskipper), and my Kato and Tomix 2012 catalogs.  I'm not happy with the quality of my Kato 2012 catalog.  It has obviously been wet, but not in shipping as it was in the same wrapper as my Tomix catalog, which doesn't have the same problem.  My Kato catalog has wrinkled pages that creak when you turn them.  I've included a few images here to show you what I mean, and compared it with my Kato 2011 catalog.  I've sent a similar message directly to HS, basically asking for a replacement.  Has anyone else experienced this problem?  Am I being too picky?

Edit:  The last image is a page from my Kato 2011 catalog, to compare with the one before.

Cheers

The_Ghan

[bikkuri bahn]

From photo appearances it looks like the catalog was in a high humidity environment, which you could remedy by placing in a dry place between a couple of heavy books (I find American railroad books handy for this).  But the crinkling suggests true water damage- in that case you rightfully should ask for a replacement.

[cteno4]

Probably a few boxes stored in a bad spot at some point in their history. Crinkly paper makes me think water damage. Try pressing it as bikkuri suggests, but I doubt that will help the crinkle... I guess it falls if it really bothers you that much to request a new one or not. Who know where in its life it was damaged before it got to you.

Jeff

[linkey]

I've got mine with the TOMIX catalogue with not problems, I even had wrapping to protect the three catalogues. Hopefully HS will be able to comply and replace the KATO catalogue for you.

[The_Ghan]

Yuh,

Thanks guys.  I haven't heard back yet but I'll give them a day or two.

Cheers

The_Ghan

[westfalen]

My Kato catalog from HS is in pristine condition (apart from the fingerprints after all the club members pawing it on Saturday). I had an issue of Japan Railfan Magazine end up like your catalog, worse actually, after I had it in my bag at work one day when it rained and it got a bit damp.

[The_Ghan]

Hmmm .... it seems either HS isn't telling me the truth or all of you are having a lend of me.  Here is the HS reply:

[i]"Thank you very much for contacting us.
 
We had checked your photos of the product, so we had compared them
with the items we have in stock at the moment and have
confirmed that the items in stock are all also wavy when placed
flat on table.
As such, it seems that your suspicion of the problem being
at the printing stage was correct.
 
So we had contacted Kato regarding the print quality
of their 2012 catalog.
However, unfortunately they had not been very helpful
and could only tell us that they are all the same this year.
 
We would've liked to send you a replacement if we had a
nicer copy, but as they are all in the same state,
unfortunately there would be no point.
 
As such, we are very sorry but we are unable to be
of your assistance with this case.
 

We apologize for your inconvenience, but your understanding
would be greatly appreciated.
 
Sincerely Yours,
Ryo Negishi"
 [/i]

Any advice, anyone?  According to HS you are all wrong !!!     

Cheers

The_Ghan

[Kumo]

Type of paper, orientation of the paper in the machines, type of ink used, time for letting the catalogs dry, etc.
Believe me, there is lots of factors in the printing process that can be the cause of this. ;-)

[The_Ghan]

Does your copy have this problem Kumo?

Cheers

The_Ghan

[cteno4]

yeah i have been involved in projects with huge print runs and all the things kumo said can go wrong (and usually do even on the best of runs) and even for a short while it can end up with cases of effected product. hard to always qa the whole huge batch! but having the whole thing that way makes me think something happened after printing and it looks like moisture...

jeff

[bill937ca]

Anyone order from Plaza Japan?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Kato-Model-Railroad-Japanese-Catalogue-2012-25-000-/120838123217?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item1c22836ed1

If its the whole print run PJ`s should be no better.

[The_Ghan]

Good point Bill,

I'm thinking to order a second copy from another supplier, actually.  I'm going to contact a few and see if they have this problem.  If not, I'll buy a second one.  Mine really is quite bad.  If HS has sent me an honest reply then Linkey and the rest of you who've bought catalogs from them should all have the same problem as me, yet none of you have.  Is HS being dishonest with me?  I hope not.

If Kato's attitude is really "take it or leave it, they're all like that" then I'll be voting with my feet and purchasing more from Tomix, MA, and maybe even my first Greenmax train.  Actually, my next order will probably include a High Grade Tomix Yufuin-no-mori.

I spent just over $10k in 2011 across all aspects of N-gauge.  Nearly half of that was with HS, so they do OK out of me.  Perhaps I might direct more of my business to other suppliers.  I had my first order from Hobby Plaza Bigman over Christmas.  They offer 20/25% discounts and the goods were well packaged.

But I'll just ask the question here one more time:

Do any of you have a Kato catalog with the same problem as mine?

Cheers

The_Ghan

[cteno4]

HS usually takes some pushing to get them to do much. i think part of their problem is the use interns to do the english orders so they are only there like 6 months and gone, so your longer history with hs is never really known. i expect interns are also a bit timid of giving in and about the time they get the hand of customer service they are gone...

best of luck with this.

jeff

[keitaro]

Hmm ill ask mother in law she bought for me i have not received it yet though.

[bill937ca]

I've not ordered any catalogs this year.  So my experience isn't of any help.

[IST]

My Kato catalog is still in Japan at one of my friends, I will ask him about its quality.

[The_Ghan]

I'd really like to know how some of the other catalogs look before taking this further.

Cheers

The_Ghan

[linkey]

The_Ghan,

Looking at the first photo, my 2012 catalogue looks similar flatness to your 2011 KATO catalogue. It could be due to the printing ink that could cause it. Again I had three catalogues shipped out together and wrapped up so that might of gave me the look as it was mostly flat. Your second photo gives a define detail of how the inner psges are affected but not much of the outer cover, that would give HS and KATO the idea it would most likely be printing issue not weather related.

[cteno4]

Since the whole catalogue is warped in the same way it was probably not in the printing process. Page layouts would be several pages across so you would probably not end up having the identical warping all the way thru. Also thr crinkling pages sounds like the page coating/varnish getting damp. Ink is usually dry once it's leaving the press. I think they had some boxes get damp some where in the delivery chain from the printer, but who knows how or where. Still it's the sort of thing that would be kicked back from a print run or supplier.

Big question is how many are out there like that. Japanese printing is usually very first rare for glossy print run like this.

Cheers jeff

[The_Ghan]

... Big question is how many are out there like that..

Only one, according to this thread.  But if you ask Hobby Search, then every single catalog is the same and westfalen and Linkey are both telling me fibs!      

Cheers

The_Ghan

[The_Ghan]

I've sent HS a rather unfriendly email.   

I might place my next order with Bigman.

Cheers

The_Ghan

[westfalen]

After a year mine will be looking a bit the worse for wear anyway.

[linkey]

... Big question is how many are out there like that..

Only one, according to this thread.  But if you ask Hobby Search, then every single catalog is the same and westfalen and Linkey are both telling me fibs!      

Cheers

The_Ghan

No we were not telling fibs, it is very unusal to see a KATO catalogue and I have the 2008, 2010, 2011 and 2012 catalgoues and none of them even looked like the one you got The_Ghan.

[The_Ghan]

After a year mine will be looking a bit the worse for wear anyway.

I look after mine west ...  ... something I wish I'd done with my old Hornby catalogs years ago ... 

Cheers

The_Ghan

[angusmclean]

I'd really like to know how some of the other catalogs look before taking this further.

Cheers

The_Ghan

Apart from being speared by a sharp object in the postal system, the new cat. looks normal to me.

Angus

[The_Ghan]

Thanks Angus,

Unfortunately HS is ignoring me.

Was that the discreet NZ Border Patrol drugs check speering?   

Cheers

The_Ghan

[KenS]

I just ordered my Kato 2012 catalog from HS (along with a bunch of other stuff).  I'll let you know how it compares to past versions when it arrives in a week or so.

[The_Ghan]

I just ordered my Kato 2012 catalog from HS (along with a bunch of other stuff).  I'll let you know how it compares to past versions when it arrives in a week or so.

Thanks KenS

I look forward to your update.

Cheers

The_Ghan

[inobu]

The_Ghan, first off you are not being picky as new catalogs are sold in pristine condition which is what you paid for.   

I'm trying to to avoid any PC issues in this response but the truth and reality sometimes infringes on those boundaries....... so here goes.

Japan is a very different culture and one that is hard for us (gaikokujin) to read into. There are a lot of known but unspoken forms of etiquette.

Raised floors indicate to take your shoes off. The receiving area to a home will usually be raised about 7 or 8 inches (16,17 cm.) indicating you should take off your shoes and put on slippers.

How does this correlate to the catalog?

The Japanese are high on respect and presentation, how that copy got to you started with someone placing it in the box. If you noticed packages are wrapped nicely as it is a form of presentation. Whoever packed the shipment made a decision to send it.

The question is, was your catalog the last copy at the bottom of a wet case, a series of books in a damp case or was it in the overseas box in which the shipper had no choice in the matter. The question cannot be answered by us.

The Japanese don't normally point fingers but make suggestions to possibilities.

I'm going to translate their response.

However, unfortunately they had not been very helpful
and could only tell us that they are all the same this year.


Kato - we printed and shipped out the 2012 catalog, the information on the pages are all identical. Kato is only going to answer to what they are responsible for.

We apologize for your inconvenience, but your understanding
would be greatly appreciated.

HS is saying .........This is our closing response on the matter, help us out by moving on.

Here is my thoughts......Japan is changing and they are having to deal with a changing culture based on Generation XYZ or what ever....the quality that we have seen before may be something of the past..... more and more guys on the forum are seeing broken parts shipped. The question is where is the problem coming from?  The manufacture and their outsourced plants  or the new generation of  internet distributors?

Think about it. You have 10K worth of stuff to focus on don't let a few flaky pages ruin your enjoyment.

.....with the amount you spend I should just build a point and click web site for you and do all the ordering on the back side.  Making sure all your packaging are perfect even insuring that each bubble is un-popped on the wrapping.

10K............that's good enjoyment money.


Inobu.

[cteno4]

Inobu i think you have some good wisdom here. western culture gets in to the customer is always right mentality and this can clash with some of the older and evolving cultural norms of japan. tack onto this ordering things from very afar and i think it adds up to some stuff can happen, so as you say dont let it affect your enjoyment of the hobby.

a couple of years ago hs shipped me a train ems while i was on vacation (preorder came in). the local postmaster followed usps rules which are express packages (like an ems is when it hits the states) are returned if not picked up after 7 days. i had a vacation hold in with the post, but unfortunately express mail packages are handled differently that the rest of the mail and the vacation hold notice wont get over to those dealing with express mail in the larger stations. in smaller stations folks will notice this and bend the express rules and not start the 7 day clock ticking till you get home. anyway the upshot was the package was returned to hs. i had to pay shipping a second time to get hs to send the package, it was either this or loose the whole thing, hs would not give a refund or exchange on the returned item. it miffed me quite a bit. while i did not expect them to pay for the second shipping i was seriously not wanting to spend the second shipping charge for the item anymore (shipping was about half the cost of the item) and just wanted to get the price of the item credited to my account to spend on something else. they refused to do this and this upset me as i have been a very long standing customer with thousands of dollars spent at hs over the years. i was upset with them for quite a while over this, but in the end i came to the same conclusion that this sort of fell under stuff happens and it was not worth getting that upset over in the scheme of things and in dealing with a japanese store i need to behave japanese. The event was triggered by something totally out of hs's control, so i probably should not expect them to do anything special to cover that. yeah it was $30 gone, but in the end not worth the angst i spent on it.

here is where the two cultures clash. western culture says you do extra to keep the good customer even though out of their control, and as inobu noted the japanese culture a customer would not assume that hs would have to assume any responsibility for something out of their control.

with the catalog, if it did happen before it was sent to you then yes you think that maybe someone at hs should have caught it and noticed that something was amiss, but at first glance the bit of warping to the catalog would probably not be noticed by the packer or something they thought might just flatten out. it could have gotten damp in transit to you. who knows. its probably for sure its a very limited issue to either your shipment or a small shipment to hs or w/in the printing process. probably not a huge level or more squawking would be heard.

in the end i learned to chocked it up to some stuff is going to go wrong in life and as long as thats a small percentage then its nothing to worry about and best to just move on and let it all go. better to enjoy the 99% great stuff than to dwell too much on the 1% unfortunate stuff.

cheers

jeff

[The_Ghan]

Hi inobu and cteno4,

Firstly, let me say that I take your point about the Japanese culture.  I did my senior year of highschool there and graduated at Kofu Higashi High.  My email to HS reflected my understanding of Japanese culture also.  I also understood the subtle meaning of the reply I received. 

Of course I'm not going to let one sub-standard catalog spoil my enjoyment.  But I bought a new catalog and, to be frank, the one I've got has pages that creak when you turn them and it looks like it comes from the stack of magazines kept behind the toilet door.

I've got another catalog on order from elsewhere.  If it is in a similar condition I'll eat humble pie, otherwise the HS one is being sent back.  I know you think I'm not getting your point but I say you aren't getting my point, which is this: why aren't you all complaining just like me? HS has told me you've all got catalogs the same as mine.  You're all telling me you don't!  If you all did then I wouldn't be complaining.  If HS had just sent me another catalog, as good as all of yours, then I would never have started this thread.

Why should I suck it in?  It's my money!  If I accept this catalog tell me why I shouldn't accept trains with scratched sleeves? This is an HS problem, not a Ghan problem.  The_Ghan just placed an order with Bigman - no problem!

Cheers

The_Ghan

[inobu]

Ghan you have every right and to demand what you paid for.....my comment is a mere reminder that the world of "principles" is becoming a thing of the past......even in Japan.

They are taking over the world and do not understand the factors of principles. You are going after an issue that has merit to us but means nothing to "them". As a friend of the forum I am just pulling your arm and saying leave it just as if you were going to enter into a bar fight.

If you want to snatch your arm and continue on it is your choice I'm just saying lets enjoy the rest of the night and go to that bar over there.

Inobu

Murphy Laws should have Big Man sending you a catalog with a torn page...then what?

I am not trivializing your issue but just reminding you that things are not as they use to be. 



 

 

[cteno4]

Ghan

I think both inobu and I agree that the catalog is not up to par and hs should have caught it before it ever got to you and you did not get the quality product you were expecting and deserve.

It's as inobu illuded to, we were just trying to tug you out the door before the bar fight as this thread was sort of asking should you jump into the frey or not.

I'm a bit puzzled why you asked for input if you feel this is just unacceptable and are willing to pay to send it back on principle. Totally up to you to do that and I can understand both your upset and the principle, we were just asking is it really worth it.

Guess you got what you paid for our 0 cents worth, so you will have to keep our warped and crackly responses as we are not taking any returns, refunds, or store credits.

Cheers

Jeff

[KenS]

My Kato 2012 catalog arrived today from Hobby Search, along with a Tomix catalog, and I do see some of the same waviness that you do.  I'll also note that mine seems less pronounced, and when actually reading the catalog I don't notice anything; it's only visible end-on.

Attached is a photo showing (bottom to top): the old 2011 Kato catalog, the new 2012 Kato catalog, and the new Tomix catalog.  These are standing on end, held up by leaning against a slightly inclined sheet of hardboard, so gravity isn't flattening them, and you're seeing all of the waviness in the paper.

As you can see, there's a faint amount of the same kind of waviness in the old Kato catalog, and a lesser amount in the Tomix. This suggests that at least in part it's an artifact of the printing process and Kato's supplier has more of it than Tomix's.  And if the old catalog is anything to go by, it will go away somewhat over time (my 2011 catalog has been lying flat on the floor next to the couch and on various shelves over the past year; it's never made it into upright storage in a bookcase yet).

BTW, when HS shipped these (in a box with miscellaneous other small plastic things) they were both wrapped very heavily in plastic (not bubble wrap, just plastic) and taped.  I don't think it would be water-tight if the box were immersed, but it was pretty well protected.

It's still possible yours was damaged in some way, or perhaps the ones on the top of the pallet are more wavy than the ones at the bottom of the pile. But I suspect HS was telling the truth when they said they were all wavy.

[The_Ghan]

KenS,

Thanks for following up mate.  It's appreciated.

Yes, my latest correspondence from HS included similar photos of their own stock, although it also doesn't seem as bad as mine.  I am accepting their position on the matter and they have kindly extended the offer to refund my purchase should I return the catalog to them.  I also agree with you that mine does seem to be especially bad.  Some of the pages between p20-p40 actually creak as you turn them and have become stiff.  I week in front of the dehumidifier failed to improve the matter.

My position now is this: I intend to include another catalog with my next order from Bigman.  If it is substantially better then I will return the HS one, the point being that they advice Kato of the customer return.  Without the feedback we can't expect any improvement.  Perhaps someone further up the line will pay more attention with next year's catalog.

Cheers

The_Ghan

[Kumo]

KenS,

Thanks for following up mate.  It's appreciated.

Yes, my latest correspondence from HS included similar photos of their own stock, although it also doesn't seem as bad as mine.  I am accepting their position on the matter and they have kindly extended the offer to refund my purchase should I return the catalog to them.  I also agree with you that mine does seem to be especially bad.  Some of the pages between p20-p40 actually creak as you turn them and have become stiff.  I week in front of the dehumidifier failed to improve the matter.

My position now is this: I intend to include another catalog with my next order from Bigman.  If it is substantially better then I will return the HS one, the point being that they advice Kato of the customer return.  Without the feedback we can't expect any improvement.  Perhaps someone further up the line will pay more attention with next year's catalog.

Cheers

The_Ghan

Put it one week in front of the dehumidifier with a whole encyclopedia on top, this will probably flatten it a bit. But as I said, paper and inks work in mysterious ways... If they just stored the boxes outside on a rainy night, it could just be enough for the paper to get moist... :-/

[The_Ghan]

Actually kumo, I did just that. The problem is that the paper has stretched.  I had the room humidity below 35% for about a week, and then came the stack of books.

I have some experience with 4 colour offset printing (I'm talking about 20 years ago).  I would say the paper was moist as it went through the printer or binder.

That's life, I guess.

Cheers

The_Ghan

[Densha]

I just asked a Dutch retailer if he can deliver a 2012 catalog, but apparently Noch (the European distributor) doesn't have them yet. So, do you think I should just order it at HS, at another (?) online shop, or just wait until it finally comes in? (it is still TBA)

[The_Ghan]

Densha,

They will be coming by sea, I guess, so they won't be in until March or April.  I suggest you wait as the 2012 is remarkably similar to 2011 and 2010.  If you REALLY can't bear to wait, I suggest purchasing from Bigman, as HS don't discount the catalog.  Also, my "problem catalog" came from HS.  Hopefully Bigman got a different batch.

Cheers

The_Ghan

[Densha]

This will be my first kato catalog, so it's difficult to wait. But I guess I'll wait then, since I prefer having a good one over having one fast.

[rpierce000]

Here is a shot taken of catalogs for sale at the Yokohama train show:

Bob

[The_Ghan]

Thanks Bob,

Hmmm .... they are a bit disappointing, aren't they.  Still, I think mine is particularly bad ... and p20 is a shocker.

At least now I am confident that HS was telling me the truth.  I'm sure Kato is aware of the problem.

Cheers

The_Ghan

[linkey]

Thanks Bob,

Hmmm .... they are a bit disappointing, aren't they.  Still, I think mine is particularly bad ... and p20 is a shocker.

At least now I am confident that HS was telling me the truth.  I'm sure Kato is aware of the problem.

Cheers

The_Ghan

I just got my second batch on the KATO Catelogue due to an incident with my first KATO catelogue and water damage from the festival I was at, and can say that  my second KATO catelogue does look wavey but not as bad as your first photo. I will take photos of my water damaged (1st KATO catelogue) next to my new one that came through yesterday to show you the difference.

So I would say it would be a printing issue not shipping as again HS had wrapped up my catelogues :P

[cteno4]

could still be a shipping issue from the printer to kato or to distributors with excessive moisture in some storage or transport place. we have had cases of books come through from the printer with some warpage due to some boxes probably getting soaked or damp along the way somewhere. on later book run we had the distribution warehouse look through all the cases upon delivery. it cost like 20 cents a book to do that, but it paid for itself in the refund from the books damaged in transit (it was higher than the contract error rate) and more than paid for itself in not having them get to a customer. its always hard to determine where and how the goof happens usually and everyone likes to point their finger at each other...

jeff

[clem24]

That definitely doesn't look water damage to me... I dunno maybe I am not as picky. It's just a catalog; it'll be replaced in a year anyway LOL. I leave mine in the bathroom anyway hahaha (and each bathroom has various versions from differing years to stir things up a bit).

[Hobby Dreamer]

These aren't the droids you are looking for....
Move along... Move along...

R2D2:   Vooo Voo VOOOO!
C3PO:   I know R2, I cannot understand over 1000 views either...

[linkey]

Here is my photos of the catelogues:

Photo 1: Newest KATO 2012 Catelogue

Photo 2: the water damagaed KATO 2012 catelogue

The newest catelogue is wavy but not as bad as the water damaged catelogue

[to2leo]

There's always 2013...

[cteno4]

might have been cheaper, lighter paper that they didnt back off the ink so got too wet in printing as well, but the fact the whole thing warps together makes it seem like the warping happened after cutting and binding, and by then things are dry (can do the cutting and binding if its damp at all due to how things are slid around) so the warping would not be uniform like this

does seem like it was an issue with a lot or all of the catalogs...

jeff

[inobu]

These aren't the droids you are looking for....
Move along... Move along...

R2D2:   Vooo Voo VOOOO!
C3PO:   I know R2, I cannot understand over 1000 views either...

UR2FUNEE......lol......but true.....