Tomix 6421 cleaning car - mod to run with shinkansen feasible ??

[sid21177]

I'm thinking of buying one and converting to run with the doctor yellow set.

That would require me to change the rapido coupler bogie to the hook/ring unpowered bogie like the one on the shinkansen.

So far, I've been able to find the connector set/springs/powered bogie, but no unpowered bogie.
Would anyone know the part# or a suitable bogie to use ??

Also, can someone pls share
1. a pic of the underside of the 6421 with the bogie unscrewed, so that I can see what the contact strips look like
2. the length of the spring in the 6421 bogie, the shinkansen one is 4.0mm. I need to calculate if 4.0mm+thickness of the connector matches up to the original spring length

I hope I've piqued some modder's interest :D

Thanks in advance
Sid

[cteno4]

sid,

i dont think there is an unpowered version of the new tomix power coupling bogies as its sort of its own beast design i think. you need the powered bogie though to power the cleaner car. why not try to adapt the whole power ring/coupler bogie to the cleaner car so you continue the full train power train as well as supply power to the power car? maybe i missed something in your question.

i would really suggest you run the cleaning car as a custom cleaning car train with a powerful loco, and the tomix on vacuum mode then a tank car that spreads cleaner, a roller cleaner like the aztec or centerline. this combo should really take care for most issues you would have as smutz is a major thing for starting crud and getting sucked up into gears and such and a simple fluid apply like isopropanol and then the soft mechanical action of the roller cleaners does a great job cleaning the rail heads. track cleaning is always a dirty issue so i opt for attaching it full on with something more dedicated. aint pretty, but look at it as an interesting MOW train!

ive not found the buffing or grinding heads for the tomix to be very useful. i worry the grinding heads will just scratch the track heads up a lot which many feel leads to faster collection of dirt, and the buffing wheel i think can be better done by the roller type cleaners and on those you just use hunks of handi wipes that you can quickly (and very cheaply) replace.

while it aint pretty, its probably a lot more effective than running it in your doctor yellow alone and no major mucking with the trucks.

cheers

jeff

[sid21177]

hi jeff,

thx for the feedback :)
I was all set to do this the traditional way, loco+6421.

But, once I saw the Dr. yellow, I started to think why not try to merge form with function 
I do have a 2nd motorized car from my 300 series if more power is needed.

Not touching the original trucks on the 6421 is the reason I'm looking to see if a suitable alternative is available.
The shinkansen power bogies come with the non-removable connectors attached, u have to replace them as a whole.
So I'll be surprised if spare connectors & springs are available, but no bogies - that doesnt seem very logical 

The 6421 bogie has spring contacts supplying power to the frame, and the concept is same as the shinkansen bogie, except that for the latter, the total length is divided between the spring and the connector width.

If you have a 6421, can u pls take a pic of the underside of the frame with the bogie unscrewed ??

[cteno4]

Sid,

Ok gotcha. I'll snap some Picts later tonight.

Jeff

[sid21177]

Sid,

Ok gotcha. I'll snap some Picts later tonight.

Jeff

appreciate it, & if u can measure the length of the spring in the 6421 bogie :)

[Krackel Hopper]

If you have the old Dr. Yellow (like I do) they made a track cleaning car specifically for it..



I have this car, and while it is an interesting addition.. I have to agree with Jeff that using the track cleaner in conjunction with some Aztec (or other) cleaning cars is the more practical method.


A fun, but dated, article on the Tomix track cleaning cars.. shows some interesting paint jobs..
http://jmtn.wordpress.com/2011/05/09/tomixs-cleaning-sytems/

[The_Ghan]

Yes,

Doug Coster's blog is full of interesting topics and sound advice.

Cheers

The_Ghan

[cteno4]

ok here are the picts

the spring is about 7mm long in total and sticks out from the top of the truck (from the center axis area) about 3mm.

jeff

[sid21177]

If you have the old Dr. Yellow (like I do) they made a track cleaning car specifically for it..



I have this car, and while it is an interesting addition.. I have to agree with Jeff that using the track cleaner in conjunction with some Aztec (or other) cleaning cars is the more practical method.


A fun, but dated, article on the Tomix track cleaning cars.. shows some interesting paint jobs..
http://jmtn.wordpress.com/2011/05/09/tomixs-cleaning-sytems/

this one is the inspiration to try and duplicate

[sid21177]

ok here are the picts

the spring is about 7mm long in total and sticks out from the top of the truck (from the center axis area) about 3mm.

jeff

thx, the dimensions match up nicely, the power coupler is abt 3mm in thickness with its contacts, so it makes up the 7mm along with the spring

I wonder if anyone wants to swap the bogies from a shinkansen car onto this and see if we can line it up in this

[cteno4]

I'll take a look at my n700 and see if this is within reason.

The other one was for the non power couple dr yellow. I think the Shinkansen coupler just mates into the truck coupler socket that the rapido uses.

Cheers

Jeff

[Martijn Meerts]

I could do a triple header DD51 with 5 cleaning cars.. Grind, vacuum, grind, vacuum, polish or something =)

Would actually be an interesting train to see on a layout ;)

[sid21177]

The other one was for the non power couple dr yellow. I think the Shinkansen coupler just mates into the truck coupler socket that the rapido uses.

Cheers

Jeff

correct, i think the old hook-ring coupler will not attach to the new one (the hook looks wider in the new one)

@Krackel - can u check if we can couple your 6493 in the new power coupling shinkansen ??

[sid21177]

I could do a triple header DD51 with 5 cleaning cars.. Grind, vacuum, grind, vacuum, polish or something =)

Would actually be an interesting train to see on a layout ;)

That brings up an interesting point, can 1 shinkansen power car handle 2 of these ??

The setup would be
cab+cleaning+cleaning+power+cab
or
cab+cleaning+power+cleaning+cab

[Martijn Meerts]

Would probably be something like:

dd51 - dd51 - dd51 - grinding - vacuuming - grinding - vacuuming - polishing

or:

dd51 - grinding - vacuuming - dd51 - grinding - vacuuming - dd51 - polishing


Although, don't think I could stand the noise of the thing all that long =)

[rpierce000]

Tomix sells a dedicated set with a ED61 and a cleaning car. If you had several of those you would be able put them in series and know that they were designed to work together.

[cteno4]

the tomix cleaning units will run with any loco you choose. atlas even licensed the car to have an atlas branded one a while back. ive pulled  it with all sorts of stuff over the years. if you are running 2 cleaners i would suggest a couple of locos though.

ive allways like the vacuum function the best as there is nothing else out there to this. im not into the grinding feature.

i dont think there i anything special about the ED61 loco that comes in the cleaner set. just a set so you can pull the cleaning car.

jeff

[Martijn Meerts]

The ED61 set loco isn't anything special, but unlike the previous set with the blue/yellow DD54, the ED61 runs like a champ :)

[Shashinka]

the tomix cleaning units will run with any loco you choose. atlas even licensed the car to have an atlas branded one a while back. ive pulled  it with all sorts of stuff over the years. if you are running 2 cleaners i would suggest a couple of locos though.

ive allways like the vacuum function the best as there is nothing else out there to this. im not into the grinding feature.

i dont think there i anything special about the ED61 loco that comes in the cleaner set. just a set so you can pull the cleaning car.

jeff

I bought one of these from Ken R from our club. It does its job (the ED61) adequately, but I wouldn't go out of the way for it. Now, if I get a few more TOMIX track cleaning cars (in different colors) for my track train, and the ED61 works it fine, no problem...

[cteno4]

I bought one of these from Ken R from our club. It does its job (the ED61) adequately, but I wouldn't go out of the way for it. Now, if I get a few more TOMIX track cleaning cars (in different colors) for my track train, and the ED61 works it fine, no problem...

aaron,

i dont get you why would the ED61 work better with multiple track cleaning cars? am i just reading this wrong?

jeff

[linkey]

I got a TOMIX Part catalogue which has the spare parts wouldn't it be easy to just replace the bogie section to the one you require?

[sid21177]

I got a TOMIX Part catalogue which has the spare parts wouldn't it be easy to just replace the bogie section to the one you require?

if u can tell me which one 

apparently tomix does not sell the non-powered conducting bogie on its own 

[inobu]

What does the Dr Yellow couplers look like? Is there a close up pic?


Inobu

[cteno4]

ok i tore apart an n700 truck with the ring coupler all wheel pickup. im guessing its the same truck as on the 700 dr yellow, but these may differ some. i cant find my tomix parts catalog to see what was there, i think it came out after the other all wheel pickup trains.

good news and bad news.

good news is that bogie axle/pin assembly will fit the ring pickup and the pickup's will fit into to the chassis slots. also the coupler bar looks long enough to work with a shinkansen coupled. bad news is there are several minor size differences between them in other parts

one big problem you see in cleaner3.jpg is that the n700 truck is a couple of mm longer than the cleaner truck so that the wheels run into the chassis (cleaner1.jpg). you could probably take off a few mm of the chassis to make room for the wheels there.

another issue is that the cleaner truck rides a mm or two higher above the chassis than the n700 truck does. this might be fixed by some washers to move the ring and truck up a tad, but its going to be tricky to get it just right.

so while its probably possible, it is going to be quite a bit of fiddling it looks like unless one of the other shinkansens with the power ring trucks is a better fit.

cleaner1.jpg - cleaner chassis with n700 coupler ring and truck

cleaner2.jpg - cleaner chassis with n700 coupler ring

cleaner3.jpg - cleaner chassis

cleaner4.jpg - left n700 truck right tomix truck

cleaner5.jpg - n700 chassis

cleaner6.jpg - n700 chassis with coupler ring.

cheers

jeff

[inobu]

Jeff you reaffirm what I went through with the koki's 104. Trying to change the trucks or couplers is challenging. You have to redesign the trucks or design a new coupler. Because the tolerances are so tight it will be difficult to find a bolt on replacement off the shelf unless one is very lucky.  

Sid, I see where you are going with this and think its a good idea to bring functionality to Dr Yellow. After thinking about it I think this might be an alternative........



This is a simple circuit to extract the DC voltage from the DCC track. Afterward you can take a Multi meter and read the DC voltage.

The way I see it...you can place the circuit in one of Dr Yellow's car and then have the output drive a LED bar graph. . Being that the circuit reads DC voltage from the track you can run your own diags. Find places that needs cleaning or feeder issues.

In essence Dr Yellow will be registering track voltage just as it does in the real world. Might be easier to do this than designing a coupler.

just a thought.

Inobu

[sid21177]

ok i tore apart an n700 truck with the ring coupler all wheel pickup. im guessing its the same truck as on the 700 dr yellow, but these may differ some. i cant find my tomix parts catalog to see what was there, i think it came out after the other all wheel pickup trains.

good news and bad news.

good news is that bogie axle/pin assembly will fit the ring pickup and the pickup's will fit into to the chassis slots. also the coupler bar looks long enough to work with a shinkansen coupled. bad news is there are several minor size differences between them in other parts

one big problem you see in cleaner3.jpg is that the n700 truck is a couple of mm longer than the cleaner truck so that the wheels run into the chassis (cleaner1.jpg). you could probably take off a few mm of the chassis to make room for the wheels there.

another issue is that the cleaner truck rides a mm or two higher above the chassis than the n700 truck does. this might be fixed by some washers to move the ring and truck up a tad, but its going to be tricky to get it just right.

so while its probably possible, it is going to be quite a bit of fiddling it looks like unless one of the other shinkansens with the power ring trucks is a better fit.

cleaner1.jpg - cleaner chassis with n700 coupler ring and truck

cleaner2.jpg - cleaner chassis with n700 coupler ring

cleaner3.jpg - cleaner chassis

cleaner4.jpg - left n700 truck right tomix truck

cleaner5.jpg - n700 chassis

cleaner6.jpg - n700 chassis with coupler ring.

cheers

jeff

thx jeff for taking the trouble to mount the bogies and take the photos - i really appreciate it
Its pretty clear that the cleaner bogie has bigger wheels, hence the height difference u r talking about

The closest shinkansen bogie I could find was this one (for the E series), can someone compare this with the 700/300 series bogie to see if its shorter ??
I could prolly cut off the regular couplers and use the power couplers instead
http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10069559

Out on the HS website I can see regular spare bogies, that are shorter&higher and can possibly work as an alternative, since the coupling ring fits pretty well.
http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10138805

[sid21177]

Jeff you reaffirm what I went through with the koki's 104. Trying to change the trucks or couplers is challenging. You have to redesign the trucks or design a new coupler. Because the tolerances are so tight it will be difficult to find a bolt on replacement off the shelf unless one is very lucky.  

Sid, I see where you are going with this and think its a good idea to bring functionality to Dr Yellow. After thinking about it I think this might be an alternative........



This is a simple circuit to extract the DC voltage from the DCC track. Afterward you can take a Multi meter and read the DC voltage.

The way I see it...you can place the circuit in one of Dr Yellow's car and then have the output drive a LED bar graph. . Being that the circuit reads DC voltage from the track you can run your own diags. Find places that needs cleaning or feeder issues.

In essence Dr Yellow will be registering track voltage just as it does in the real world. Might be easier to do this than designing a coupler.

just a thought.

Inobu

Wow, this is really interesting, though all I want to do is run my cleaning cars with the shinkansen
I'm using traditional DC btw :)

[cteno4]

Sid

You're welcome. First whic dr yellow do you have, the earlier one w/o the all wheel pickup or the newer one with the all wheel pickup? If its the newer you will have to use the power ring style as they are different coupler designs.

The height is due to the bogie sitting higher on the cleaning car, not the wheel size.

It's probably doable, but would take a lot of fiddling I think and some experimenting with different bogie sets.

Don't think the second bogies you posted will work as it does not have the power ring pin in it I think and does not have the old 700 coupler so would not work for either.

I think the easiest would be to get the proper 700 bogies (power ring or not) for your dr yellow, then modify the cleaner car chassis to make the bogies fit. I'm guessing the non power ring bogies might fit better, but that would require an older dr yellow.

Which dr yellow do you have? If you have an older I could look at tomix shinkansens thr have the same coupler to see if any of those bogies fit better. I only have the n700 to try the power ring bogies.

Cheers

Jeff

[sid21177]

the newer one
how i wish i was in japan so that i could just pop into the store and take a look at the spare parts  

[cteno4]

sid,

ok then you will have to use the newer power ring coupler mechanism to interface with those cars.

like i said i think doable, but will require  a lot of fiddling.

still think best to just do a custom cleaning train.

jeff

[sid21177]

If the non power conducting bogie couples well with the power one, then I could probably compromise losing on the all wheel pickup
But I think the shinkansen bogie length would still be a problem, like u showed
Unless the older ones are shorter, I'll have to end up modifying the chassis

[inobu]

Sid,

You can do it with DC too.

You would just set the throttle at half throttle and watch Dr Yellow read the track voltage as it makes its passes.

Inobu
 

[cteno4]

If the non power conducting bogie couples well with the power one, then I could probably compromise losing on the all wheel pickup
But I think the shinkansen bogie length would still be a problem, like u showed
Unless the older ones are shorter, I'll have to end up modifying the chassis

sid,

sorry the powered coupler (power ring) and the non powered (older) do not couple, pretty different design to the interlocking hook and loop, but ill see if i can get them to couple, but at first glance i doubt they can.

btw the power ring couplers are excellent couplers.

im starting to doubt any of the shinkansen couplers are shorter, but ill pull out any older style tomix i have to see, i have the old dr yellow 700.

modifying the chassis would not be all that bad. all it would do would be to take out the little cleaning strip holder (the semi-circle one) on one side and probably cut into the vacuum compartment where you would need to just make a little L box in the bottom corner to cover up the little chunk you would have to cut out. easy to do with a roto tool.

jeff

[sid21177]

if I went custom cleaning train way, will 1 loco be enough to pull (or push) 2 cleaning cars, or would I need 2 ??

I was thinking of using the Kato EH series (8 axle) loco - am I being too optimistic ??

[cteno4]

should do fine. those are pretty umphy pullers. you can always add in another loco if you need more power.

which one are you thinking of, i can test it here, i have 2 tomix cleaners and even a centerline roller and several of the eh locos.

jeff

[sid21177]

should do fine. those are pretty umphy pullers. you can always add in another loco if you need more power.

which one are you thinking of, i can test it here, i have 2 tomix cleaners and even a centerline roller and several of the eh locos.

jeff

EH200 or EH500 with 2 tomix cleaners
preferrably in pull mode, but push is acceptable (even if it looks ugly  )

I was also thinking of buying a SBB re460 (one of my fave locos), but I'm not sure it'll handle 2 of the cleaners

[cteno4]

i have the kato ef200, but my ef500 is tomix. i think the 200 and 500 have pretty similar mechanisms. ill give things a run next weekend at the club show. my second tomix cleaner car is mia right now so i can borrow one of the other member's if i cant dig the second up...

jeff

[cteno4]

Sid,

i checked and you will have to use the power ring couplers if you want to mate to a all wheel power newer dr yellow. the old style tomix hook and loop couplers will not couple with the new power ring style hook and loop couplers. benefit is you keep the all wheel pickup going.

jeff

[keitaro]

i got tomix ED 61 x 2 62 x 1

i can pull 2 cleaners up a above 3% grade with 1 of these ED's so i don't think you will have too much problems with these being pulled about till you get a bout 3 - 4 cleaning cars

heck even my little Ma C11 steam can pull the 2.

but yeah i don't think he could pull 3 but he may surprise me.

Hell for fun i'm going to try thomas when i get home. (i know for sure he won't make it up the hill though)

[sid21177]

i have the kato ef200, but my ef500 is tomix. i think the 200 and 500 have pretty similar mechanisms. ill give things a run next weekend at the club show. my second tomix cleaner car is mia right now so i can borrow one of the other member's if i cant dig the second up...

jeff

jeff,
1st pref to the kato EH200 - the color scheme blends well with the blue tomix i think - might as well have a fashionable cleaning train  

btw, if ure ever in AZ i owe u a drink for taking this much trouble on my account

[sid21177]

i got tomix ED 61 x 2 62 x 1

i can pull 2 cleaners up a above 3% grade with 1 of these ED's so i don't think you will have too much problems with these being pulled about till you get a bout 3 - 4 cleaning cars

heck even my little Ma C11 steam can pull the 2.

but yeah i don't think he could pull 3 but he may surprise me.

Hell for fun i'm going to try thomas when i get home. (i know for sure he won't make it up the hill though)

ok, my layout is a flat one for now.
Eventually I plan to build a double decker one, but that also will have < 3% grade between levels. Pics attached
Most of the videos I saw had 2 or more locos pulling 2 or more cleaners, so I wasnt sure if 1 loco is good enough for 2 of them

I just like running trains, so only tracks for me.
Building up my high speed train collection.