makeup of shorter japan trains?

[worldrailboy]

not sure if subject line was the best one I could think of right now but basically I was wondering if there were any locomotive hauled trains that would still look somewhat prototypical but not be several many wagons long?
I mean like in term of not picking an Tomix EF66 and make it look silly with only two container flatcars all the times
I think I might like the length at 1-7 wagons or so but this of course is going to depend on whether its 2-axle and/or bogie wagons

I don't think I'm partial to any of the three major brands for locomotives

don't have any specific japan railway geography in mind at all btw :)

[Nick_Burman]

I've seen a picture of a real container train made up of an EF-class electric hauling just one container flat loaded with one 40' ISO container.

You can't get get any shorter than that...


Cheers NB

[Krackel Hopper]

Short, loco-hauled trains.. the DE10 locomotive instantly comes to mind.

Nostalgic View Train (4 coach + loco)
http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10146104

Series 485 `Sylpheed`(3 cars + loco)
http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10074529

WAMU80000 (loco +2 boxcars)
http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10141302

If you wanted to do steam, there are all sorts of 2-axle freight cars to be had.

[bill937ca]

You do see short trains, particularly on hilly routes. I believe most freights are 20-30 cars long.  These trains must fill into slots between frequent passenger trains.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/dTJu6hbLLG4" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/dTJu6hbLLG4</a>

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/RT7irtqZnjM" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/RT7irtqZnjM</a>

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=Q6uK9h_gHvE

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/5vAwH4DDdWA" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/5vAwH4DDdWA</a>

[worldrailboy]

krackel - funny that someone would quickly mention the DE10 as I had been looking exactly at that especially when I remembered someone posting a few photos of the DE10 in that blue/white strip colour for a particular passenger consist

I always did wonder about its C-B trucks which isn't something I've ever seen.
on the other hand I do know of the EMD FL9 in usa. B-1A1 instead of typical B-B trucks due to the weight of the steam generator in rear

as for steam I don't want to be sounding clueless but could it be any tank or smaller tender locomotive or is there something to know about the classes? at least I assume that whether it has smoke deflectors didn't make or not make it a freight locomotive on slower lines tho or did it? I only know a little bit about this in regarding to german steam locomotives alone so (I actually have one magazine that had photo of a DR tank locomotive with small boiler-attached deflectors even although the thing in question had very low wheels and probably couldn't really go fast at all! the irony)

bill thanks for these videos, when I started watching the first clip I thought that seem like a normal freight train till the EH200 in question showed up and then I had to rewind the clip back to there to actually believe that it was only just four wagons alone for such a massive locomotive
maybe I'll have to think about the Kato EH200 in my list of locomotives to consider after all

while still on the topic how about the microace A2062 or A3400? I only started thinking about the ED42 because of the siderods and that I always could leave the other two unpowered ones on the engine shed track.
but then if they were not exactly known to show up on short trains then thats ok I got many other to choose from yet ;-)

[Nick_Burman]

The problem about the ED42s is that they were special locos for a very specific task - namely raising and lowering trains on the rack-fitted Usui Pass section. They never ventured outside the Yokokawa-Karuizawa section and always operated in multiple. No question about these locos being fascinating to watch in operation, however they look best bracketing (one loco in front and three at the back) a long Tokyo-Nagano express...

If you want a short steam train you couldn't do better that sourcing a C11, C12, C56, 8620 or 9600 and half-a-dozen or so freight cars to go behind. Then you'll have the archetypal branchline/secondary line wayfreight.

Cheers NB

[The_Ghan]

OFF TOPIC: My wife just saw the word "makeup" and piped up "What's that about? What's that about? .... sheesh ... women!

Cheers

The_Ghan

[marknewton]

I always did wonder about its C-B trucks which isn't something I've ever seen.

According to Japanese technical literature, the DE10s are A-A-A-B - the three axles on the larger truck are independently driven. But that's a minor quibble, I reckon they're a very interesting loco either way you describe them. 

as for steam I don't want to be sounding clueless but could it be any tank or smaller tender locomotive or is there something to know about the classes? at least I assume that whether it has smoke deflectors didn't make or not make it a freight locomotive on slower lines tho or did it? I only know a little bit about this in regarding to german steam locomotives alone so (I actually have one magazine that had photo of a DR tank locomotive with small boiler-attached deflectors even although the thing in question had very low wheels and probably couldn't really go fast at all! the irony)

Fitting smoke deflectors isn't related to how fast a steam loco could run, or whether it was in freight or passenger service. I don't know how much you know about steam loco design and development, so I apologise in advance if I get a bit technical. I could go on endlessly about steam loco smokebox/front-end design, having spent most of my career working on and in them, but I'll try to keep it simple. Here's a link to a wiki page, which is essentially correct about the basics of smokebox/front-end design:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blastpipe

Older locos had simple, single-orifice blastpipes located high in the smokebox. They relied on a small, high velocity jet of exhaust steam from the cylinders to create a vacuum in the smokebox, thereby creating draft in the firebox. This meant that the exhaust steam and combustion gasses would leave the top of the funnel with some pressure, so the smoke and steam tended to be projected up and well clear of the loco when working steam. The disadvantage was that it lead to excessive back pressure in the cylinders. It's the exhaust leaving the blastpipe and funnel under pressure that makes a steam loco go "chuff, chuff".

Modern locos have low, multiple-orifice blastpipes, and the drafting is reliant on a large volume of exhaust steam at a low pressure. This leads to the smoke and steam trailing back into the cab and obscuring visibility for the crew. This problem is exacerbated by the tendency for a partial vacuum to be formed at the front of the loco by the flat front of the smokebox.

Smoke deflectors are perhaps mis-named, because they are intended to prevent the partial vacuum from forming, and to channel the exhaust up and over the engine by directing the airflow upwards. They're assisted by the characteristic upward-sloping apron plate that covers the front of the frames and cylinders on many deflector-fitted engines.

Hope this helps! 

Cheers,

Mark.

[westfalen]

I caught this DD51 heading north past Sako (just north of Nagoya) with three tank cars in tow.

[worldrailboy]

nick hmm now I know more about the ED42, I can see why the locomotive set is sold as four but not all powered :)

I'll have to look up more about this particular operation section now that you had me interested. four extra locomotives on a single train for a short distance hmmm

the C11 certainly looked like something I would had liked to try get, not too big but not looking like a silly little 0-4-0T trying to run on the mainline at same time

the_ghan seriously did she think train modellers were ACTUALLY talking about bathroom items??? haha

mark thats an interesting explanation, I'll have to read more later on when I have extra time for that ;-)

westfalen these photos reminds me of something I wasn't sure about asking at first [from watching the clips] before but are the two red plates on tail for when a brake van/cab isn't present? probably not hard to make a small red dab something to put on the N scale wagons in that case

[westfalen]

westfalen these photos reminds me of something I wasn't sure about asking at first [from watching the clips] before but are the two red plates on tail for when a brake van/cab isn't present? probably not hard to make a small red dab something to put on the N scale wagons in that case

Some freight cars come with them for you to add on, some Kato and Tomix container cars I bought recently each came with a red plastic sprue of them.

[worldrailboy]

hmm so I did a bit of looking online after a moment of figuring out a few full locomotive names in japan and this one photo
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/ファイル:JNR_C11_289_on_Tadami_line_19731103_001.jpg
pretty much looks like what I was thinking of in term of steam powered trains, a C11 with mixed freights rolling along on a simple bridge far from any urban areas

mm well this has been an interesting thread I started, I'll have to check out some more selections at the few english store sites and decide on a rough wish list :)

[KenS]

I don't know much about the steam era, or even JNR (pre-1987) freight before general freight service largely stopped.  But modern freights can be quite short, despite the increased focus on unit trains.  I think a half-dozen cars would look fine.  You can find real-world examples that short, and in any case "selective compression" is a common technique for making things fit a smaller space (i.e., six cars standing in for a dozen). Wikipedia has a couple of online images of short trains and I've seen others:

This one's in Tokyo, on a mostly-freight cutoff that runs between the Joban and Sobu lines, six container flats with two tank containers each behind an EF65 (I think, might be an EF64):
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:JRE-Shinkin-Line-Nakagawa.jpg

Here's a ten-car limestone train:
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:0903090079_ube_limestones_ft.jpg

Five car container train behind a DE10:
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Shinminato-line-2002-05-14.jpg

Short container train behind EF210:
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:JRF_seriesEF210_Yumesaki.jpg

You can also find things on Flickr although finding the right keywords to search on can be problematic ("Tokyo Freight" works well):

Five container flats behind an EH500:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/tohru_nishimura/1051362091/

Another short EF65 container train:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/8938550@N03/4536975675/

Most modern trains, other than maintenance-of-way, will be unit trains of one type of car, but that's not absolute. I couldn't find examples in a brief search, but I'm sure I've seen photos of some mixed trains from recent years.

For locomotives, on a modern train a DE10 or perhaps a DD51 (in non-electrified areas, and sometimes elsewhere) or older electric locos (e.g., EF64, EF65) would look appropriate on a short freight, but more modern locos (e.g., EF210 in particular) are also used. You can probably find examples of short trains behind any JR Freight locomotive.

[worldrailboy]

I was thinking about a DE10 or few but could probably think about wanting a DD51 with the matching euroliner consist too
http://pic.brilliant.dnsalias.com/joyfull6/Dscn0376.jpg
the dome-roof wagons already interest me so :-)

that reminds me, I was planning to buy at least two different KIHA sets to fill out the lighter rails but hmm what was with the DE10's hauling some of them under power from time to time? I'm sure I'm missing something when I can't figure out why a DE10 is leading a single KIHA railbus and both units are under power

still thinking about if it'll fit my layout parameters yet but does anyone sell a 485 Nodoka? (I guess after all a romancecar 3000 series is a bit too long for me prototypically heh)

on a not-n-scale topic this I have had bookmarked for a while now and it humors me for some reason
http://blogs.yahoo.co.jp/kiha58657/63473623.html
thats QUITE some smoke especially when it does appear that the rearmost railbus is under full power too if you noticed the particular smoke stream coming from its rooftop exhaust port

[Nick_Burman]

I was thinking about a DE10 or few but could probably think about wanting a DD51 with the matching euroliner consist too
http://pic.brilliant.dnsalias.com/joyfull6/Dscn0376.jpg
the dome-roof wagons already interest me so :-)

that reminds me, I was planning to buy at least two different KIHA sets to fill out the lighter rails but hmm what was with the DE10's hauling some of them under power from time to time? I'm sure I'm missing something when I can't figure out why a DE10 is leading a single KIHA railbus and both units are under power

still thinking about if it'll fit my layout parameters yet but does anyone sell a 485 Nodoka? (I guess after all a romancecar 3000 series is a bit too long for me prototypically heh)

on a not-n-scale topic this I have had bookmarked for a while now and it humors me for some reason
http://blogs.yahoo.co.jp/kiha58657/63473623.html
thats QUITE some smoke especially when it does appear that the rearmost railbus is under full power too if you noticed the particular smoke stream coming from its rooftop exhaust port

A KiHa being towed by a diesel probably means that the railcar broke down and the DE has been sent to rescue it. The engine on the railcar is kept on to provide power for lighting, A/C, etc...

The last picture seems to show a train on its way to be scrapped. That KiHa looks like as if it was on its last legs...and definitively it isn't under power, it's just that (very) sick DE which makes it look as if it were...


Cheers NB

[worldrailboy]

hmm thanks nick, the breakdown makes more sense now. I assume that in some cases only the hydraulic transmission itself failed so it was then left decoupled [or ?] for the tow while the still-working engine kept the generator running. am I correct?

I guess for a DCC layout that could add some extra operation interest with a KIHA stopped somewhere till a spare DE10 could be pressed to pick it up

[marknewton]

are the two red plates on tail for when a brake van/cab isn't present?

Yes, they indicate the end of the train when running without a brakevan, or when normally self-propelled vehicles are being hauled dead, and no marker lights are displayed. It's a bit practice found on many railways where there was a British influence in the early days. We use them here in NSW for the same purpose, where they're known as "tail discs".

Cheers,

Mark.

[marknewton]

hmm thanks nick, the breakdown makes more sense now. I assume that in some cases only the hydraulic transmission itself failed so it was then left decoupled [or ?] for the tow while the still-working engine kept the generator running. am I correct?

Depends on the design of the transmission, and I admit I'm not sure of how the JNR cars are configured. Modern practice is to have a seperate traction engine/s and an auxilliary engine to power lights, AC, etc. On our DMUs, there is a "neutral" position on the master controller, which can be used for short distance loco-hauled moves. But for longer distances, the cardan shaft between the torque converter and the final drive is removed. Which is an absolute bastard of a job...

Cheers,

Mark.

[marknewton]

...a C11 with mixed freights rolling along on a simple bridge far from any urban areas...

You'll like this, I reckon:

http://yoshiokasyd.web.fc2.com/Annexes/Retro_Photos/Honsyuu/tadami/index.htm

The rest of the site is worth a look, too.

Cheers,

Mark.

[westfalen]

are the two red plates on tail for when a brake van/cab isn't present?

Yes, they indicate the end of the train when running without a brakevan, or when normally self-propelled vehicles are being hauled dead, and no marker lights are displayed. It's a bit practice found on many railways where there was a British influence in the early days. We use them here in NSW for the same purpose, where they're known as "tail discs".

Cheers,

Mark.

I wonder what the actual rules are. On my recent visit to Japan I noticed trains with only one disc or none at all. I'm thinking in might depend on the type of train, a shunt train (local pickup freight), for example might not be required to have discs and a single disc might identify a specific type of train. At home it might just mean the discs fell off.

[Nick_Burman]

hmm thanks nick, the breakdown makes more sense now. I assume that in some cases only the hydraulic transmission itself failed so it was then left decoupled [or ?] for the tow while the still-working engine kept the generator running. am I correct?

I guess for a DCC layout that could add some extra operation interest with a KIHA stopped somewhere till a spare DE10 could be pressed to pick it up

As Mark said, just the case of putting the controller out of gear, coupling up and away you go. Since the tow wouldn't be very long (first to the next station to transfer passengers to another vehicle, then to the nearest maintenance facility) there would be no need to "field strip" the cardan shaft before moving the train. That is, unless the gearbox seized up solid - then, mate, call the nearest bus company...

Cheers NB

[westfalen]

How often do trains break down in Japan though? In nine visits and many thousands of kilometers travelled I've never seen it happen.

[Nick_Burman]

How often do trains break down in Japan though? In nine visits and many thousands of kilometers travelled I've never seen it happen.

Anything created and mantained by human beings will end up giving trouble one moment or another... Admittedly, given the strictness the Japanese enforce on maintenance breakdowns are few and far between. However they do happen, with the difference that when they happen they end up on newspaper headlines... Even the Shinkansen with its immense reliability has been prone to (OK, infrequent) glitches. If you have travelled thousands of km without ever being inconvenienced by a hiccup it was because you never had the luck (for Japan...) of being in the wrong place at the wrong time...

Cheers NB

[westfalen]

How often do trains break down in Japan though? In nine visits and many thousands of kilometers travelled I've never seen it happen.

Anything created and mantained by human beings will end up giving trouble one moment or another... Admittedly, given the strictness the Japanese enforce on maintenance breakdowns are few and far between. However they do happen, with the difference that when they happen they end up on newspaper headlines... Even the Shinkansen with its immense reliability has been prone to (OK, infrequent) glitches. If you have travelled thousands of km without ever being inconvenienced by a hiccup it was because you never had the luck (for Japan...) of being in the wrong place at the wrong time...

Cheers NB

Just my point, you'd pretty much have to live there and spend all your life riding trains to have a fair chance of seeing a train break down in service and need towing so how often is too much to realistically depict it on a layout?

[spacecadet]

Just my point, you'd pretty much have to live there and spend all your life riding trains to have a fair chance of seeing a train break down in service and need towing so how often is too much to realistically depict it on a layout?

Just to throw in my 2 cents, I've visited Japan probably 15 times now and I was stuck behind a broken down train on the Joban line once, which caused the entire line to have to terminate at Toride.  It was a mess.  My in-laws had to drive like 20 miles to come pick us up at Toride, and of course about a million other people were doing the same thing so it was complete chaos.  We actually had to walk about a half mile in the pouring rain just to get to the car, because they couldn't get any closer to the station even temporarily.

I was saying the same thing to my wife, about what kind of luck I must have that on my 7th or 8th trip to Japan (by that time) I'd of course get stuck in a situation that probably never happens, and she said it happens more often than you'd think (she lived there for 29 years before moving to the US).  I'm sure it doesn't happen as often as on, say, the Long Island Rail Road, but it apparently does happen often enough that it's not completely unexpected for someone who rides the trains there regularly.

If you watch the message boards in some stations, you'll always see service disruptions somewhere, usually at multiple points around the Tokyo area, often caused by disabled trains.  I don't think it's particularly rare, just maybe a little less common than elsewhere.

But yeah, the situation I was caught in did make newspaper headlines.  (But then again, it makes newspaper headlines when similar things happen on the LIRR and all the trains have to terminate at Jamaica, even though that seems to happen on the LIRR about once a week.)

[bill937ca]

I think Spacecadet is right, this happens more often than many of realize but the cause more frequently people being hit by trains (at least once a day in Tokyo), grade crossing accidents rather than equipment failures.  There 40,600 service suspensions in 2008 in Metropolitan Tokyo, of which suicides accounted for more than half.  Newspapers will report the length of the delay and how many passengers were delayed.

Railway Suicides in Japan

http://factsanddetails.com/japan.php?itemid=639&catid=19&subcatid=120#05

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33622388/ns/health-mental_health/t/tokyo-train-stations-use-lights-stem-suicides/#.Tv-XHPJEpPQ

[KenS]

Suicides aside, there are also an immense amount of trains operating in and around Tokyo.  Even a very low incidence of failure per-train or per-line is going to happen fairly often, and the number of people impacted will be huge.  Several of Tokyo's busiest lines are moving more than 70,000 passengers per hour (per line) at peak, so any disruption will impact tens of thousands, and possibly hundreds of thousands, of people. Something that hits multiple lines through a busy station (power or signaling failures) can easily impact a million riders.

[linkey]

OFF TOPIC: My wife just saw the word "makeup" and piped up "What's that about? What's that about? .... sheesh ... women!

Cheers

The_Ghan

If anyone, places foundation on my trains they better run the other way very quickly.......  Well the Fujisan Express has a image of a female mountain and looks lilke it has lipstick for lips lol....

Meanwhile getting baack on track, one of the members of the Australian Japanese Model Railway Group has a rule of thumb in regards to locos and their train loads. It it interesting on how he is able to do the calculations of it, especially when it it dealing with freight trains.

Nice photo of the DE10 with the 3-car oil pots.

[worldrailboy]

getting back to topic finally...

that DE10 now that when I think about it does look like it might just about throw a piston any moment :-s

mark, thanks for that link. does give me some ideas of what to pick for the N scale C11
do have one little photo question tho
http://yoshiokasyd.web.fc2.com/Annexes/Retro_Photos/Honsyuu/tadami/tadami2.files/p3.jpg
I'm sure thats not actually a coach but just almost looks like it or am I wrong? its the first long wagon yeah

whats Kougei like? I'm finding their smaller rolling stocks interesting (and nick now I know where your avatar came from)

oh and I found that microace makes the 485 emu that I was wondering about so I may see about it on my wishlist

only question re the microace 485 tho is this other thing next to it in the new-releases sheet
http://www.microace-arii.co.jp/poster/img/11_02_2.jpg
whats with that DE10 and the uniform green strip on the whole train?

sure makes me thinking I need to plan which of these DE series locomotives to get since I as hell am not buying ten individual ones!!

I still need to look the real things up yet to see if they'll work for me but I see theres an ED16 and DE11 recently released?

I still have to look through the long list of currently selling freight wagons (especially newhallstation's) but could I ask if A3002 and A3074 from microace would had been within steam or more modern post-steam era?

thanks a lot for this helpful thread either way, I may finally post a rough wishlist later on this week for comments :)

[Krackel Hopper]

I still have to look through the long list of currently selling freight wagons (especially newhallstation's) but could I ask if A3002 and A3074 from microace would had been within steam or more modern post-steam era?

Be cautious of Newhallstation.  Their stock is significantly marked up in price.  For instance, they want $60 for the Tomix Hoki 800 (2 car set) while HobbySearch, PlazaJapan & BTtrains have the exact same set for $30.  Having said that, Newhallstation does have some rare and hard to find things that you cannot find anywhere else.. at which point the mark-up over MSRP may or may not be worth it.

If you're looking for a US dealer, BTtrains.com and modeltrainstuff.com are state-side and have better prices on your more readily available items.

[westfalen]

getting back to topic finally...

that DE10 now that when I think about it does look like it might just about throw a piston any moment :-s

mark, thanks for that link. does give me some ideas of what to pick for the N scale C11
do have one little photo question tho
http://yoshiokasyd.web.fc2.com/Annexes/Retro_Photos/Honsyuu/tadami/tadami2.files/p3.jpg
I'm sure thats not actually a coach but just almost looks like it or am I wrong? its the first long wagon yeah


thanks a lot for this helpful thread either way, I may finally post a rough wishlist later on this week for comments :)

We do wander OT a bit at times.

The Kato 10-809 set is a good selection of freight cars from the late steam/early diesel era that would go well with a C11 or DE10. http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10100325

As in other parts of the world branch line trains often were mixed trains carrying freight and passengers so the car in the photo could be a coach or a baggage car for small freight shipments.

[marknewton]

mark, thanks for that link. does give me some ideas of what to pick for the N scale C11 do have one little photo question tho
http://yoshiokasyd.web.fc2.com/Annexes/Retro_Photos/Honsyuu/tadami/tadami2.files/p3.jpg
I'm sure thats not actually a coach but just almost looks like it or am I wrong? its the first long wagon yeah

It appears to be a Waki1000 express boxcar.

http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10045315

Cheers,

Mark.

[The_Ghan]

...
Be cautious of Newhallstation.  Their stock is significantly marked up in price.  For instance, they want $60 for the Tomix Hoki 800 (2 car set) while HobbySearch, PlazaJapan & BTtrains have the exact same set for $30.  Having said that, Newhallstation does have some rare and hard to find things that you cannot find anywhere else.. at which point the mark-up over MSRP may or may not be worth it.
...

Agreed.  I would never purchase anything from Newhall Station.  Grossly overpriced.

Cheers

The_Ghan

[keitaro]

your right on being a waki 1000 but it's not express car you can tell it's not no stripe probably

http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10014059
or
http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10045317

from what it seems the c11 came into use on this line from 1946 replacing the c12. the lines most notable feature was it's high use for freight for production of the dam the picture you linked earlier worldrailboy was either shot from the dam itself or during it's construction judging on the angle it is pointing.

http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~aj4s-ski/aizu10-4/newpage4.htm

i checked a few sites and none mention any use of express freight on this line but that doesn't mean it never occured but i'm sure that has no express stripe on it. really intersting line to model for that era. thanks for bringing it up.

[Nick_Burman]

whats Kougei like? I'm finding their smaller rolling stocks interesting (and nick now I know where your avatar came from)

oh and I found that microace makes the 485 emu that I was wondering about so I may see about it on my wishlist

only question re the microace 485 tho is this other thing next to it in the new-releases sheet
http://www.microace-arii.co.jp/poster/img/11_02_2.jpg
whats with that DE10 and the uniform green strip on the whole train?

sure makes me thinking I need to plan which of these DE series locomotives to get since I as hell am not buying ten individual ones!!

I still need to look the real things up yet to see if they'll work for me but I see theres an ED16 and DE11 recently released?

I still have to look through the long list of currently selling freight wagons (especially newhallstation's) but could I ask if A3002 and A3074 from microace would had been within steam or more modern post-steam era?

thanks a lot for this helpful thread either way, I may finally post a rough wishlist later on this week for comments :)

My avatar is a model of one of Akita Chuo Kotsu's (Akita Central Transportation, delightful little line in northern Japan now long closed) freight motors. Akita Chuo was an oddball as far as passenger equipment was concerned because AFAIK they did not have a single passenger motor in their fleet - the freight motors hauled ex-JGR coaches, plus whatever freight came along, on their runs. The perfect prototype for your short train!

I haven't got a clue about N scale World Kougei. A friend of mine has a WK HO electric loco, somewhat noisy, no flywheel but runs OK.

Yes, Kato is coming out with the ED16. Dunno about the DE11 (incidentally a souped-up version of the DE10 for snowplow service).

The green DE seems to be hauling a "Joyful Train" of one sort or another. I'll leave the ID to the experts...

Avoid Newhall Station if possible. Prices...OUCH...seem to have been designed to fleece Hollywood stars.

Cheers NB

[worldrailboy]

I guess the other photos given sure makes me thinking thats a perfect prototype for me to use since its never the same consist type all the times unlike modern block trains

perhaps something like this if using a bit of interception of a few different such lines together on a single layout;
two different microace C11 steam locomotives
some short and long WAMU ? cars
tomix TORA 70000 cars
kawai Waki 1000 cars
a brake car or two
kato Oha31/Oro30/Ohani30

I was only using newhallstation as a quick # reference alone for a moment and yeah I did noticed their high prices early on especially with the KIHA sets :-|

as for DE11 being souped up I guess that would had made sense with the similar numbering as well

and re that green DE10 I eventually found that its the normal 485 emu but in another paint job with the DE10 done up the same. seem its another of these 'emu under diesel power' set again. think just the standard 485 set itself might be enough for me tho

btw funny that you would mention 'joyful train' because I found another one then I remembered that someone talked about it on this forum at some long point ago. does microace A5934 ring any bell? as far as I even remember it was the two KIHA40 repainted to this dark brown colour and the middle car being unpowered bbq table car or close to it?

the more I looked at it the more I decided that even although eg the EH200 with so few wagons would had been interesting I didn't want to end up with a compressed layout so I'm going to do without urban populations for most part so I might still buy an electric or few as to not get too rural...but for most part I'll stick to the like of C11, DE10, or KIHA on quiet lines. was interesting re the thought of an EH200 with so few wagons but I think I'll try keep the variety a bit small (except I might still end up with a few too many different KIHA's )

nick, I'm not too surprised that a japan line would be putting that and that together.
a few skinny light farmers' railroads in the usa a long time ago would had used old gas-electric passenger units that otherwise should had been normally scrapped more than ten years ago...hauling one or few loads of grain etc down the old rails.
http://www.alleganycountynylocalhistory.com/RailroadsAlleg/Penna%20RR/prrbrill.jpg
thats a good example of one [that is still in passenger service] with the radiators streamlined into the roof line (otherwise it would had been a wieldy boxy radiator that was bolted on top of the cab roof)

[marknewton]

I wonder what the actual rules are. On my recent visit to Japan I noticed trains with only one disc or none at all. I'm thinking in might depend on the type of train, a shunt train (local pickup freight), for example might not be required to have discs and a single disc might identify a specific type of train.

Westfalen, I think you're right, there seems to be a number of ways the discs are displayed. I'd love to get hold of their local appendix/TOM/OSP or equivalent.

At home it might just mean the discs fell off.

LOL! You're not wrong!

Cheers,

Mark.

[marknewton]

your right on being a waki 1000 but it's not express car you can tell it's not no stripe...

You're right Keitaro, I didn't notice the lack of stripe. Again, I plead lack of sleep due to too many night shifts.

checked a few sites and none mention any use of express freight on this line but that doesn't mean it never occured but i'm sure that has no express stripe on it. really intersting line to model for that era. thanks for bringing it up.

My pleasure. I gather that the waki cars were not only used for express freight but also LCL and parcels on secondary lines, which would explain its presence here. I like the link you posted, too.

Cheers,

Mark.

[westfalen]

I can just imagine a waki 1000 turning up on the Tadami line one day and the local staff thinking, "This is better than that old wooden four wheeler we use, we'll just hang onto it until Tokyo asks where it is".

[worldrailboy]

westfalen I'm going non-japan here but for usa there were actually a few known stories of 'stolen' locomotives on neighboring small railroads from years ago. only way to explain why theres suddenly a mostly clean EMD GP40 leading an old local owned+repaired GP9 till the mainline railroad's motive board finally got wise enough to find out why the locomotive wasn't at the interchange track for its supposed job anymore

[linkey]

westfalen I'm going non-japan here but for usa there were actually a few known stories of 'stolen' locomotives on neighboring small railroads from years ago. only way to explain why theres suddenly a mostly clean EMD GP40 leading an old local owned+repaired GP9 till the mainline railroad's motive board finally got wise enough to find out why the locomotive wasn't at the interchange track for its supposed job anymore

Come on folks, it was in Area 51 honest. :P lol

[worldrailboy]

linkey this forum never gets bored at all does it?!

anyway could someone perhaps point me to some explanation for the various freight wagon namings? might make it easier for me to search for specific wagons from the catalogs

and even then the first question I could have is that so far I've found low-side wagons with 'humped' sides but can't figure how to find the ones with flat sides because I don't understand the wagon naming system?
http://www.eonet.ne.jp/~sl59634/sl93.jpg
that photo shows what I mean with the first car behind the brake car compared to the other two after it in that train

at least I've been able to figure out that WAMU seem to always be medium length 2 axle roofed vans with sliding doors? :-)

[westfalen]

westfalen I'm going non-japan here but for usa there were actually a few known stories of 'stolen' locomotives on neighboring small railroads from years ago. only way to explain why theres suddenly a mostly clean EMD GP40 leading an old local owned+repaired GP9 till the mainline railroad's motive board finally got wise enough to find out why the locomotive wasn't at the interchange track for its supposed job anymore

My main modeling interest when I'm not lurking about here is the Santa Fe. When run through service started with NYC and later Penn Central ATSF cabooses started going missing with some being found in local service as far away as Pennsylvania. It turned out NYC crews were finding ways of keeping them because they were so luxurious compared to NYC cabooses, some of which didn't even have electric lights.

[westfalen]

linkey this forum never gets bored at all does it?!

anyway could someone perhaps point me to some explanation for the various freight wagon namings? might make it easier for me to search for specific wagons from the catalogs

and even then the first question I could have is that so far I've found low-side wagons with 'humped' sides but can't figure how to find the ones with flat sides because I don't understand the wagon naming system?
http://www.eonet.ne.jp/~sl59634/sl93.jpg
that photo shows what I mean with the first car behind the brake car compared to the other two after it in that train

at least I've been able to figure out that WAMU seem to always be medium length 2 axle roofed vans with sliding doors? :-)

Here's a site I found, there may be others. http://sunny-life.net/train_symbol/trainsymbol.htm

The first character designates the type of car and the second the weight, the number is the individual classes of that type.  wa = freight car w/roof, mu = 14-16 tons

[The_Ghan]

That's Plaza Japan's (ebay seller) website.  I've found him very reliable and sometimes willing to negotiate on things that he's listed at a fixed price.

Cheers

The_Ghan

[worldrailboy]

thanks for that the_ghan I had looked at a few of his items in interest too

now as for the wagons, I had a bit fun playing around with different grouping of #1 and #2 together and I think I'm getting the hang of it already.

I had to ask whats the exact operational difference between HO- and SE- wagons tho?

edit: nick I found the real "you" if you aren't too humored by that fact
http://www5.kcn.ne.jp/~namachan/g01%20akityu%20deki3003%20%20hitoiti6305.jpg

[KenS]

anyway could someone perhaps point me to some explanation for the various freight wagon namings? might make it easier for me to search for specific wagons from the catalogs

and even then the first question I could have is that so far I've found low-side wagons with 'humped' sides but can't figure how to find the ones with flat sides because I don't understand the wagon naming system?
http://www.eonet.ne.jp/~sl59634/sl93.jpg
that photo shows what I mean with the first car behind the brake car compared to the other two after it in that train

at least I've been able to figure out that WAMU seem to always be medium length 2 axle roofed vans with sliding doors? :-)

There's a sticky on the Prototype board listing abbreviations.  While it's mainly the passenger ones (which are a different system), there are also references to the freight naming (first symbol is type, second is weight range). I also have a page on my site where I've summarized a bunch of info from wikipedia on freight cars for my own reference, along with the Japanese form of the name.

WAMU means a boxcar (WA) with a loading weight between 14 and 16 tons (MU).  It's the typical boxcar, and while some larger ones (WAKI) were made for express use, they were also scrapped earlier, while a few WAMU live on well beyond the days of freight yards, mainly in newsprint paper transport service or utility functions (tools for wreck cleanup, etc).

The low-side gondola cars were TORA (or TOKI, but those were larger), as seen on this Japanese wikipedia page (run it through Excite to read it; you need to paste in the link, click the blue box to the lower position, then click the yellow button). However, I don't believe I've ever seen a photo of one with lower-profile ends such as your photo shows. It's a two-axle gondola, so it's almost certainly a TORA (トラ), unless it was some specialized function that had a different name (which happens, high-sided hopper cars used for coal were "SERA" or "SEKI" rather than the more general hopper designation of "HOSA" or "HOKI", except later large-capacity ones which were "HOKI" rather than "SEKI").

[rpierce000]

I was stuck once in a tunnel behind a broken subway train. They must understand about claustrophobes, we were there for about 15 minutes with announcements about every three telling us what was going on and then then had backed up enough trains for us to go back to the last station and unload.

I ride subways with NO problems then or since, but being stuck was VERY SCARY.

In 20 years of riding there was that breakdown, one that caught on fire in a snowstorm in the mountains, I assume it overworked the motors, a couple of stuck doors and some suicides. If I hit ten total I think I would be about right. This is for a regular rider going to school every day, then work, and evenings out as a teen and early twenty year old. If I did not get on and off a train 4 to 6 times a day it was a very odd day indeed.

As far as short trains go the Seibu Tama line is pretty short, only 4-6 cars in my day.

[marknewton]

I can just imagine a waki 1000 turning up on the Tadami line one day and the local staff thinking, "This is better than that old wooden four wheeler we use, we'll just hang onto it until Tokyo asks where it is".

So can I - been there, done that, got the flash brakevan!

Cheers,

Mark.