[China] At least 11 killed in HSR accident.

[200系]

Probably going to be lost in the news of the Norway tragedy, but another tragedy occured today:

At least 11 people are dead and another 89 rushed to hospital after two coaches of a bullet train fell off a bridge after derailing in east China's Zhejiang Province late Saturday, local fire fighting sources said.

Witnesses said one of the coaches had fallen to ground, while the other one was hanging in the air.

The bridge is about 20 to 30 meters above the ground.

Full article: http://www.china.org.cn/china/2011-07/23/content_23055060.htm

No matter the opinion on Chinese HSR, this is obviously a tragic moment.

[spacecadet]

That shouldn't be able to happen.  Why was the train behind still moving if the track ahead was blocked?  There's obviously something very wrong there.

[bikkuri bahn]

That shouldn't be able to happen.  Why was the train behind still moving if the track ahead was blocked?  There's obviously something very wrong there.

Possibly failure of the ATC/ATS system, but even with power failure, a proper fail safe system would have signals go red, or dark(?), which would tell the the driver to brake immediately.

[KenS]

Since the first train was stopped by a lightning strike, it's likely that the surge went through it and into the tracks, blowing out part of the sensing system. That should be built to "fail safe", and many older systems still use electromagnetic relays in the track part of the system, which makes them a bit less vulnerable than semiconductors.  But as a new system, the Chinese HSR may have had more modern (and less robust) electronics, or just a simpler design because the people building it didn't have the institutional experience of an established railroad to guide them.

Plus, the railway has had numerous problems with systems not built to spec, and someone may have replaced a more expensive design with a cheaper-to-build alternative and pocketed the difference. 

Also, a "dark" signal may equate to "stop, then proceed at a slow speed" depending on the railway's operating rules, which might account for why there were only 11 dead instead of hundreds.  The train probably wasn't going at full speed.  It's a tragedy either way, but the cause could be operator error by the following train in bypassing a dark signal instead of treating it as red, or going at too high a "slow" speed, rather than a failure of the technology or design.

Hopefully the true cause will come out in the accident investigation so they can ensure it doesn't happen again.

[spacecadet]

Also, a "dark" signal may equate to "stop, then proceed at a slow speed" depending on the railway's operating rules, which might account for why there were only 11 dead instead of hundreds.  The train probably wasn't going at full speed. 

Maybe not, but we don't really know yet how many actually died.  Right now it's "at least 33", but they're saying there are still many people in the four(!) cars that were knocked off the viaduct by the impact that they haven't been able to get to yet.

I don't know much about China's trains but this is supposedly an older design that isn't all that fast.  So it still may have been going at a pretty good speed relative to what it does on a normal day, especially if it was a strong enough impact to knock four cars off the viaduct.

[westfalen]

Not a thing on the evening news here, the death of Amy Winehouse took up most of the news not allocated to the tragedy in Norway.

Usually a blacked out signal is regarded as displaying the most restricted aspect that signal is capable of displaying and according to this German site I found http://www.sh1.org/zhongguo/sl.htm red means stop unless it has an additional light authorizing to proceed on sight not exceeding 20 kmh. In any case if it was on a high speed line there likely would have been continuous cab signalling rather than traditional line side signals. If there was a lightning strike it may have affected the signalling system.

The one thing that stuck in my mind about Chinese signals after my 2007 trip over there was that their four aspect block signals approaching a red showed respectively green, green/yellow, yellow, then red using normal green/yellow/red three light signals. As soon as I saw it I realised it broke a basic fail safe principle of railway signalling, if the yellow light goes out in that green/yellow it defaults to a less restrictive green and a driver will have one signal less warning of the oncoming red. In our signals, which follow British principles, the green/yellow is yellow/yellow so if one light goes out the signal defaults to a more restrictive aspect.

Whatever the case, if the Chinese railway authorities don't get on top of things and find out what went wrong and rectify it, it will hurt their chances of selling there HSR technology to the world.

[clem24]

I don't know much about China's trains but this is supposedly an older design that isn't all that fast.

[edit] From the pictures, it looks like the CRH2 (AKA E2-1000) is the one dangling, and the one still on the bridge is a CRH1 (Bombardier). So the CRH2 rear ended the CRH1..?

[spacecadet]

I don't know much about China's trains but this is supposedly an older design that isn't all that fast.

[edit] From the pictures, it looks like the CRH2 (AKA E2-1000) is the one dangling, and the one still on the bridge is a CRH1 (Bombardier). So the CRH2 rear ended the CRH1..?

Lots of reports are saying the derailed train was a "D" train.  What is a "D" train?  They say it has an average speed of 150kph, which is not very fast (really not even HSR).  Does the "D" refer to the prefix, something like the DJJ1?  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_Railways_DJJ1

But yeah, the train that lost all the cars off the viaduct is the one that rear-ended the other one.  It looks like it climbed over the top of the stopped train until four of its cars went up and over the side.

I'm kind of surprised that I haven't been able to find a single report that actually says what model of trains these really were.  I understand not knowing in the initial confusion, but it's a couple days later now.  That's pretty basic info; even if the state-run media doesn't want to print it, you'd think some Chinese bloggers or something would have (or maybe they have, and I just don't read enough Chinese blogs).

[westfalen]

One thing I find disturbing is the report that the wrecked cars were immediately broken up and buried to prevent sensitive information on the technology leaking out. Talk about burying the evidence.

[quashlo]

If you can understand Simplified and / or Traditional Chinese (not too difficult if you can understand Japanese), I recommend these forums (among others):
Ditiezu (mostly a subway / metro forum, but there is an active intercity section now that ouRail is members only)
Shanghai MetroFans (again mostly a Shanghai Metro forum, but it also has an intercity section)
discuss.com.hk (Hong Kong forum, but there is active discussion of Mainland railway topics)

Just prepare yourself though... There is a lot of "chest-thumping" and ultra-nationalism every now and then, but there are also some more rational people, as well as railfans interested in Japanese railways.

If you want English news, you can also visit SkyscraperCity:
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/forumdisplay.php?forumid=812

Regarding D trains:
You can follow up here (if you can understand Japanese):
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E4%B8%AD%E8%8F%AF%E4%BA%BA%E6%B0%91%E5%85%B1%E5%92%8C%E5%9B%BD%E3%81%AE%E9%89%84%E9%81%93#.E5.88.97.E8.BB.8A.E7.A8.AE.E5.88.A5

D stands for "dongche" (动车)... It's basically services using 200 to 250 km/h trains. It's a little confusing because some, for whatever reason, are trying to argue this isn't "high-speed rail", even though the trains are foreign HSR models and it's marketed as CRH (和谐号)... Yes, it's not the fastest G-type services like on the Jinghu line, but it's still high-speed rail. I would probably ignore the "150 km/h" (that's probably actual average speed, not maximum speed) being quoted in these articles.

The trains involved:
D3115, operated with a CRH1B (Bombardier Regina) model, was supposedly disabled by a lightning strike (now they are saying a passenger pulled the emergency stop?).
D301, operated with a CRH2B (Kawasaki E2) model, trailed behind and collided with D3115.

It appears that they had turned off the train protection system due to the all the recent delays on the Jinghu (Beijing - Shanghai) line. This was likely the direct cause, as the trains were basically running blind.

[bikkuri bahn]

It appears that they had turned off the train protection system due to the all the recent delays on the Jinghu (Beijing - Shanghai) line. This was likely the direct cause, as the trains were basically running blind.

OMG! Talk about reckless...

[bikkuri bahn]

Scary:
http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2011/07/25/china-caught-burying-crashed-train-cars-and-the-truth/

[Toni Babelony]

Scary:
http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2011/07/25/china-caught-burying-crashed-train-cars-and-the-truth/

Oh Best China, why you only see your people as just tools instead of your brothers and sisters, like every sensible nation... Oh wait, you aren't a sensible nation, I forgot. IMHO, this symbolises very well how the CPR handles public affairs; just put a lid on it and let it rot. Good job, since things rotting with a lid on it will never explode(!).

[Shashinka]

I'm surprised it took this long for the Chinese government to issue this memorandum

http://news.yahoo.com/chinas-effort-muzzle-news-train-crash-sparks-outcry-104327138.html;_ylt=A2KLP1EGXC1OVEMAxwKs0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTM5bm0wZXZtBHBrZwM4OWNjNjY4MC01ZGVjLTNkZGMtYjIzNi0wOGU5YWU1OTkwNjkEcG9zAzQEc2VjA01lZGlhVG9wU3RvcnkEdmVyAzVkNDA0MWYwLWI2YWItMTFlMC1hZGZlLTJlOWY2YWY4OTBkMA--;_ylg=X3oDMTFpNzk0NjhtBGludGwDdXMEbGFuZwNlbi11cwRwc3RhaWQDBHBzdGNhdANob21lBHB0A3NlY3Rpb25z;_ylv=3

[The_Ghan]

Scary:
http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2011/07/25/china-caught-burying-crashed-train-cars-and-the-truth/

Oh Best China, why you only see your people as just tools instead of your brothers and sisters, like every sensible nation... Oh wait, you aren't a sensible nation, I forgot. IMHO, this symbolises very well how the CPR handles public affairs; just put a lid on it and let it rot. Good job, since things rotting with a lid on it will never explode(!).

I'm lost for words ....

The_Ghan

[linkey]

Scary:
http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2011/07/25/china-caught-burying-crashed-train-cars-and-the-truth/

Oh Best China, why you only see your people as just tools instead of your brothers and sisters, like every sensible nation... Oh wait, you aren't a sensible nation, I forgot. IMHO, this symbolises very well how the CPR handles public affairs; just put a lid on it and let it rot. Good job, since things rotting with a lid on it will never explode(!).

I'm lost for words ....

The_Ghan

You're not the only one who is lost for words . :(

[keitaro]

It china not surprised.

Gotta cover up everything otherwise someone might be plotting to rebel against the leade... paranoia to the extreme.

I have no doubt they buried people down there

[linkey]

It china not surprised.

Gotta cover up everything otherwise someone might be plotting to rebel against the leade... paranoia to the extreme.

I have no doubt they buried people down there

To really hide the numbers of killed or dying people , I wouldn't be surprised if they did to cover up to state that their accident didn't kill that many people.

[scott]

It appears that they had turned off the train protection system due to the all the recent delays on the Jinghu (Beijing - Shanghai) line. This was likely the direct cause, as the trains were basically running blind.

Has anyone found any news reports confirming this? Whatever else has happened, if this is true, it's a hideous example of irresponsibility.

[David]

Has anyone found any news reports confirming this? Whatever else has happened, if this is true, it's a hideous example of irresponsibility.

Never doubt the depths of the corrupt and careless bureaucracy culture in China. One factor that brought China to its knees in the first Sino-Japanese war (at the time the supposed Asian super power vs tiny pirate island nation) was that the leaders continued to embezzle the money meant for ammunition through the entire war (and that was only the tip of iceberg). The Communists didn't create government corruption and bureaucratic indifference in China, they just streamlined what was already there.

[spacecadet]

To really hide the numbers of killed or dying people , I wouldn't be surprised if they did to cover up to state that their accident didn't kill that many people.

The first reports said only two cars fell off the viaduct, and that's what it looked like in the pictures.  But then they said it was actually four cars, and if you look closely at some of the pictures, you can see that two other cars had either pancaked or been sliced right through, so that the walls had just completely separated from the cars.  So the death toll sounds suspiciously low to me.  And with them burying the cars, we will never really know if the official death toll is correct or not.

It's actually counter-productive burying the cars, because now no one will believe anything the government says about this accident.

[clem24]

I would probably ignore the "150 km/h" (that's probably actual average speed, not maximum speed) being quoted in these articles.

I have a feeling they mixed up 150 KPH and 150 MPH cause the KPH number translates into the correct MPH number...

[Nozomi4ever]

The two trains involved in this accident are both CRH 1 and CRH 2

CRH 1--> Derivative of Bombardier Regina (Configuration of 16 cars)

CRH 2--> Derivative of E2-1000 ( Which they claimed , but not really) (The train>> CRH 2E)
It 's fitted with sleeper cabins onboard and the weird out of place lights.. Very unusual..
Exterior:

interior:

[scott]

Has anyone found any news reports confirming this? Whatever else has happened, if this is true, it's a hideous example of irresponsibility.

Never doubt the depths of the corrupt and careless bureaucracy culture in China.

I don't doubt it for a moment. But if there's documentation of a decision to disable the train protection systems, that needs to get around.

[quashlo]

That's from some "analysis" of the accident floating around on Chinese message boards. I don't believe there's been an official announcement regarding the cause yet, and even if there was something official from the MOR, I'm sure you could be certain that you weren't being told the whole truth. Immediately tearing apart the cab car reeks of an attempt to destroy damning evidence.

The manufacturer of the signalling system says that it was "free of malfunctions" at the time of the accident, which would *seem* to throw a wrench in the theory that the lightning somehow damaged the signalling system, although cannot say for sure.

For sure, though, is that the Beijing‒Shanghai line that opened to much fanfare less than a month ago is having A LOT of problems. They had another three-hour service disruption today after a power failure in Anhui Province. If the signalling system was malfunctioning the evening of the accident, it's not difficult to imagine some top official at the Shanghai Railway Bureau, already getting heat for all the delays on one of China's most prominent public works projects, throwing orders out to disable the system. Of course there are other possible factors being cited, like lack of coordination between the various railway bureaus and poor driver training (apparently, only 10 days to become a train driver).

In any event, I recommend reading this. It doesn't answer the question of what caused the accident, but it sheds some light on the government response:
http://cmp.hku.hk/2011/07/25/14036/

[westfalen]

(apparently, only 10 days to become a train driver)!!!??? Even though he'd been driving normal trains for 20 years stepping up to a 350kmh high speed train you've never seen before after only ten days reading a training manual in a language you don't understand is crazy. If I was the German trainer I'd have walked out saying "You guys are on your own".

As some nameless American railroader once said, "What a way to run a railroad".

I'm sure they'll find a scapegoat to take the blame, but in China a scapegoat loses more than his job.

[The_Ghan]

...
In any event, I recommend reading this. It doesn't answer the question of what caused the accident, but it sheds some light on the government response:
http://cmp.hku.hk/2011/07/25/14036/

OMG!!!  The arrogance sickens me.  They are, however, correct on one thing: you can't mention China's HSR and Japan's Shinkansen in the same breath!!!

God help all who choose to ride that rollercoaster!

Cheers

The_Ghan

[clem24]

I'm sure they'll find a scapegoat to take the blame, but in China a scapegoat loses more than his job.

I thought they already found 3 scapegoats that have lots their job...

[Untenshu_TMB]

CRH2 Presentation
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/H_JRlNHPLe8" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/H_JRlNHPLe8</a>
CRH2 Accident
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/4-Wov4yWuCk" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/4-Wov4yWuCk</a>
Japanese Shinkansen 0 accidents 1 kill (suicide)
Chinese Hi Speed 3 accidents indeterminate kills, Japanese Machine (Kawasaki Rail Factory) but Chinese drivers, chinese controles, chinese protocols of security.

[Shashinka]

Notice the video from Reuters, no external light source, or commentary, done on the DL, lucky to get that out.

I'm amazed there has only been one suicide by Shinkansen in all the years of service in Japan.

[westfalen]

I'm sure they'll find a scapegoat to take the blame, but in China a scapegoat loses more than his job.

I thought they already found 3 scapegoats that have lots their job...

But they are management, railways being railways some poor guy further down the food chain has to be found and sacrificed.

[westfalen]

Notice the video from Reuters, no external light source, or commentary, done on the DL, lucky to get that out.

I'm amazed there has only been one suicide by Shinkansen in all the years of service in Japan.

I believe there have been several suicides by Shinkansen but to be fair you can't blame them on JR or the Shinkansen technology.

[Toni Babelony]

In any event, I recommend reading this. It doesn't answer the question of what caused the accident, but it sheds some light on the government response:
http://cmp.hku.hk/2011/07/25/14036/

I really love the second in article photograph of the driver pointing to a signal of some sorts, whereas a dedicated high speed line shouldn't have any lineside light signals at all... He should be pointing at his dashboard instead of the window where there's nothing to see other than a blur of the world.

[Mudkip Orange]

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/JlZv4O5aIr8" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/JlZv4O5aIr8</a>

[The_Ghan]

The_Ghan is disgusted !!!

[disturbman]

A nice read and for sure a change from the usual point of view: http://pedestrianobservations.wordpress.com/2011/07/27/racism-and-accidents/

It puts you (I mean, you, me, everybody) back in place.

[Krackel Hopper]

A nice read and for sure a change from the usual point of view: http://pedestrianobservations.wordpress.com/2011/07/27/racism-and-accidents/

It puts you (I mean, you, me, everybody) back in place.

I can hardly agree with this article.

They’ll of course not stop thinking that Asians are an undifferentiated mass of insects with no thought or creativity

For starters, the overall message of this article is that westerners are racists.

My feelings and opinions on the China train crash are just that, on the crash.. not on the Chinese people or culture.  I do have some serious questions and concerns regarding the way the government is handling the situation.. but I would have those same questions and concerns had this accident happened anywhere in the world.

[gmat]

Some news on the crash from Japanese dailies.

From the DY:
Train crash could slow business / China's rail sector has been a market for Japanese industrial firms
http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/dy/business/T110727004780.htm

China digs up wrecked train it buried
http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/dy/world/T110726005262.htm

From MDN:

Chinese bullet train likely traveling at regular speed at time of collision
http://mdn.mainichi.jp/mdnnews/international/news/20110727p2a00m0na021000c.html

From AEN:

Bereaved families criticize Beijing's 'incentive money'
http://www.asahi.com/english/TKY201107270422.html

Victims' relatives lash out at Beijing over train accident
http://www.asahi.com/english/TKY201107270421.html

Nothing found today in the Japan Times and Japan Today sites. Interesting.

Best wishes,
Grant

[The_Ghan]

...

China digs up wrecked train it buried
http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/dy/world/T110726005262.htm

...

Findings are sure to reveal that the train was crushed by bulk excavators ... 

Cheers

The_Ghan

[angusmclean]

More mud to the swirling waters.  24hrs ago, I heard the newsreader on CCTV9 (Chinese news with an english language overlay) state that it appears that the two trains involved had somehow become transposed - in other words, the rear train was supposed to have been in lead of the two trains!!

Angus

[disturbman]

For starters, the overall message of this article is that westerners are racists.

My feelings and opinions on the China train crash are just that, on the crash.. not on the Chinese people or culture.  I do have some serious questions and concerns regarding the way the government is handling the situation.. but I would have those same questions and concerns had this accident happened anywhere in the world.

If I agree that accusing everyone of racism is a bit harsh, I can see here and there that the reactions about that crash are a tad biased and tinted with some anti-Chinese sentiment. For sure, the same accident anywhere in the Western Hemisphere wouldn't have triggered some of the comments and reports I've read. And China's government might not have helped with its obvious and literal cover up operation.

But the point of the article is not actually about racism but relativism. I particularly like the point made by the author about China's railway safety record being pretty high, on par with the rest of the (Western) World if not higher than the US in general. This is the driving home point that should put us back in our place.

[The_Ghan]

I think some people are confusing being critical with being racist.  It is wise to be critical of the Chinese HSR crash.  When an airliner crashes the whole world takes note and a detailed investigation follows.  This leads to changes in training, design, manufacture, etc. that make our skies safer.  The same should be true about this incident.  General western media reports appear to be taking a similar tone to much of the Chinese media: stop the cover up and take responsibility.

Also, were we all not equally critical of Fukushima, Chernobal, Challenger Shuttle, Afghanistan, Iraq, Victorian bushfires ... I can go on all day, but when a Canadian firefighter looks me in the eye and says authorities handled the bushfires poorly I can only nod in agreement, and I sure don't think he's being racist.

Cheers

The_Ghan

[disturbman]

And I have the impression that this post will only issue a sterile discussion about his use of the term "racism" where as he is raising some valid points.

Point n°1: The treatment of this information will not have been the same if it had occurred in the West. There is a definite "this is China, what could you expect?" flavor to what I've been reading all around. So, if I won't blame it on racism (which is going way to far in my head) there is for sure a bias in the way the information is treated... But hey, I think everybody have been waiting unconsciously for a proof that China is a failure or is failing. Which in itself is quite normal since the China is in general boasting about its recent achievement and threatening to change the whole order of things that we have known for over half a century.

Here, I would like to the raise the fact that I don't endorse the apparent cover up. But this is in my opinion, another problem that is not at stake here.

Point n°2: That the actual safety record of Chinese railway operation is pretty high. Which moot the whole "this is China, it's cheap and dangerous, they don't care" rhetoric I've seen everywhere.

For sure, the whole Chinese HSR have been plagued with problems recently but it's not a reason to declare a whole nation at fault because of it's presumed policy or social traits. The future reaction of the central government about the recent accidents (subway escalator collapse in Beijing or the HSR crash) will indeed tell us how they really take those issues (mainly safety, corruption and faulty construction).

[linkey]

Looking at three different Railway accidents
1. Kerang Rail Disaster (Victoria Australia)
2. Hokkaido Super Azura incident (Hokkaido Japan)
3 Chinese HSR Accident. (China)

I am only using these three as examples and to question the racism statement due to I don't agree with it.

1. Kerang Rail Disaster involved with N class (co-co) diesel electric locomotive with 5 rail cars (N set - used for long haul lon distance trains) and a truck. The Truck driver was faced with a driving charge for not stopping at the rail crossing which claimed 9 people died. There has been a total investigation on this and the rail cars was taken to Newport to have an assessment done on the rail cars and where the inital point of force where the truck hit the last two rail cars. Victorian Government cover-up on the issue of not having flashing lights at all crossings cause it would cost too much to install and same goes with boom gates which people still drive through them.

2. Hokkaido Super Azura incident (on going) involved the High Speed Diesel Train going to Sapporo where a part of the train broke off and punchured the fuel tank which cause the last car to go up in flames. The JR Hokkaido was to blame with the issue of safety and lack of maintenance due to cost cutting, but the investigation from this event is still happening and it took a while before the cars were taken off the rails and taken to the depot of a further checking of the cars.

3. Chinese HSR accident (read from the first post) how CRH 1 and CRH 2 crashing into each other where there might have been issues of signalling or lack of driver experience or to passenger involvment to cause the accident, it not to us to assume of what happened. But what is a question why, take down the affected trains and rolling them around to bury them within two days of the accident (in which they still find dead bodies) with little to no investigation being done. We do have a government cover-up on this accident and the chinese media are also involved in this cover-up. Yes some western media might be biased but the footage that has been shown around, shows that so called trying to stop their technology being taken is a load of [insert bodily waste here].

Seeing a body after rolling the first car around and then finally moving it  shows no internal check was done to make sure all of the dead people have been taken out. As a rescuer I have to look at this and find faults and then suggest ideas of what should of been done first before any removal operation can be taken place and even so I would have to wait til I get the authority approval before I can step in.

Another rail incident and a local one for me on the same line as the point 1. Diggers Rest Station was the scene of a car driver suicide again affecting the same type locomotive at point 1 and the same type rail cars. The Female train driver was her first drive at night and she was next door to an experienced train driver, the male car driver died on scence after placing his car head on towards the locomotive. The rescue personnel (including me) were stuck there for more than 8 hrs while the inital investigation was taken and the body of the deceased was taken away with all the passengers transportered to busses to head back to Melbourne.The investigation went on for three days and a report of the incident was released to the media within a week after the investigation with recommendations to try and prevent this from happening again.

So it points out why getting rid of the evidence before the investigation has fully been done can change the outcome. Cause of affected cars have been moved around and buried and now been unburied it changes  the issue of what really caused the damage and what safety measures were taken in place. Being called racist for saying why are they doing this without doing a full on scale search to make sure it was only 11 people died, which I still believe the number of died is still not being released to the general public (possible cover-up right there). Question why is it that the chinese people (not every single chinese people) thinks that cause it affected their country that the western country is going to jump on them? Same thing can be stated about the Indian Railway and many others. It is how they want peoppe to be played around with and wanting to twist the truth of what has happened in this incident.

[Krackel Hopper]

Point #1 - I agree, a portion of the media has portrayed this as "It's China, what did you expect?" but, I think a chunk of this in not, "It's China" but more the "What did you expect?" part.. From news reports of scandals and corruption, followed with stories of poor construction methods/materials and "Become a HSR Driver in 10 days!", I think most people can look at that and say.. "This is an accident waiting to happen."  Not because of where, but because of how..

Point #2 - China's overall safety record is a good one.. but my personal concern of safety is about their more recent projects.  They are completing tasks (HSR/highway/subway) at record setting paces and probably completing things so fast that safety inspectors are not given adequate time to inspect (or are being bribed) to hurry up and get these venues open.

I don't look at this as a whole nation at fault.  This is a corrupt government trying to flex its muscles to the world.  I am somewhat concerned that if the government keeps up and continues to cut corners and then try and censor social media, the country might be in for another Tiananmen Square..

On an unrelated note, my feelings on corrupt governments is not limited to that of China.. I have some serious issues with the United States government and their unchecked and uncontrolled spending habits right now.. which I see as scandals and corruption of a different sort..

[keitaro]

i don't think anyone is being racist ...

The main attack is at china i.e. the govt if thats what you want to call it.

Japan has spent 60 years at making bullet trains what they are today and chinese govt thinks they can emulate that in such a short time span as posted by Krackel Hopper it's the as always chinese govt trying to show off. Then to top it off they are cutting corners to save money and then others being corrupt and keeping money for them selves.

Not giving a damn about "their own" peoples lives only making the premier look good because they are "all mighty and powerful" How many people lives are expendable just so some one can try to cling to power??

[The_Ghan]

...
The main attack is at china i.e. the govt if thats what you want to call it.
...

er ... I think that is being racist.   

However, linkey's point is that the investigation is being handled poorly, irrespective of location, race and nationality.  I'm in agreement on that point.  It's like the Keystone Cops are handling the affair.  I'm sure every nation has bungled its fair share of accidents and disasters.  I tread lightly here, but I believe linkey will agree that much was learned during the investigation into the Victorian bushfires in which over 170 people died.  If memory serves me correctly, the Victorian Police Commissioner was out to dinner that night and failed to take emergency calls or something along those lines ... it was certainly critically reported throughout the Australian media ... and back on topic, I don't think the Australian media is reporting this HSR incident any differently.

Political cover ups happen in every country. 

Cheers

The_Ghan

[gmat]

From Japan Today.

Chinese lawyers told not to take train crash cases
http://www.japantoday.com/category/world/view/chinese-lawyers-told-not-to-take-train-crash-cases

China 'forced papers' to scrap rail crash coverage
http://www.japantoday.com/category/world/view/china-forced-papers-to-scrap-rail-crash-coverage

From Japan Times, musings about the Japanese and Chinese HSR.

Rail rivalry outcome hinges on speed vs. safety
http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/fd20110731bj.html

Best wishes,
Grant

[keitaro]

...
The main attack is at china i.e. the govt if thats what you want to call it.
...

er ... I think that is being racist.   

However, linkey's point is that the investigation is being handled poorly, irrespective of location, race and nationality.  I'm in agreement on that point.  It's like the Keystone Cops are handling the affair.  I'm sure every nation has bungled its fair share of accidents and disasters.  I tread lightly here, but I believe linkey will agree that much was learned during the investigation into the Victorian bushfires in which over 170 people died.  If memory serves me correctly, the Victorian Police Commissioner was out to dinner that night and failed to take emergency calls or something along those lines ... it was certainly critically reported throughout the Australian media ... and back on topic, I don't think the Australian media is reporting this HSR incident any differently.

Political cover ups happen in every country. 

Cheers

The_Ghan

Ghan I think you missed my point. Its not about tan of skin, language, looks etc which is being "racist" It's about a terrible govt who murder and suppress there own people and don't give a damn about there own people dieing from shoddy work.

While dodgy stuff gets done in every country i don't think the govt makes witnesses dissapear permanantly etc like china and a few other nations etc.

[The_Ghan]

Point taken Keitaro ... 

Cheers

The_Ghan