N scale steam wish list

[Sir Madog]

It was the fine detail and the smooth running characteristics of Kato´s D51 498 which finally got me started into Japanese prototype modeling.

Aside from the newly released C57 from Tomix, most of the "older" steam locos are rather crude, IMHO.

Here is my "wish list" for steam locos I´d like to see to be released - in the same excellent quality as the types mentioned before:

C11
C58
C61

Actually, not much of a list, but they are dear to me.

[Fenway Park]

Kato have listed the C59 in their catalogue for some time. So this and the C60 may appear in the future.

I would agree with you regarding the C11 as the Kato version is too big.  The Kato C58 is preferable to the Micro Ace version although both have their faults.

A brand new C12/C56 would get my vote.

[westfalen]

A 8620 or C50.

[Nick_Burman]

The rerun of Kawaii's B6; a Amenomya, KSK or Kawasaki 0-6-0T.


Cheers NB

[keitaro]

8620 as well http://www.kurogane-rail.jp/sl/e8620.html
9600 as well http://www.kurogane-rail.jp/sl/e9600.html

also i wouldn't mind getting a hold of a renewed c55 model if kato ever do sohttp://www.kurogane-rail.jp/sl/ec55.html

[Sir Madog]

Keitaro - you´ve convinced me - I add the 8620 and the 9600 to my list!

[keitaro]

what surprises me both are these 2 models had a considerably large number produced yet japanese fans seem to disregard them 

[Fenway Park]

The Micro Ace 9600 is spot on at 1/150 while the Kato one is 1/144.

[bikkuri bahn]

what surprises me both are these 2 models had a considerably large number produced yet japanese fans seem to disregard them 

My theory is that there are few who are interested in the types of trains these locos pulled: the local freight, local passenger and such.  The average modeler wants to model the glamorous expresses pulled by a C62 or, (if they're reasonably prototype-sensitive) a 1000 ton freight behind a D51.  The local freight (wayfreight, pickup goods, peddler, et al) is curiously lacking in photo documentation in Japan, which is strange since they were in operation even past the end of steam in 1975, as far as I know.  Then again, rail freight has until recently been ignored by most Japanese railfans, though now, with the increasing homogeneity of passenger trains, it's getting a look from them.

[Martijn Meerts]

I would love to see some high quality (re-)releases of the first few Japanese steamers.

[westfalen]

what surprises me both are these 2 models had a considerably large number produced yet japanese fans seem to disregard them 

My theory is that there are few who are interested in the types of trains these locos pulled: the local freight, local passenger and such.  The average modeler wants to model the glamorous expresses pulled by a C62 or, (if they're reasonably prototype-sensitive) a 1000 ton freight behind a D51.  The local freight (wayfreight, pickup goods, peddler, et al) is curiously lacking in photo documentation in Japan, which is strange since they were in operation even past the end of steam in 1975, as far as I know.  Then again, rail freight has until recently been ignored by most Japanese railfans, though now, with the increasing homogeneity of passenger trains, it's getting a look from them.

Same sort of thing happens in the U.S. Look at the American steamers you can get in N scale, Big Boys, Challengers, Daylights, Cab Forwards and so on sell like hotcakes but no one seems to want the ordinary workaday locomotives that did most of the work.

I'm surprised no manufacturer ever did an 8620 as the 'Aso Boy'.

[Sir Madog]

what surprises me both are these 2 models had a considerably large number produced yet japanese fans seem to disregard them  

My theory is that there are few who are interested in the types of trains these locos pulled: the local freight, local passenger and such.  The average modeler wants to model the glamorous expresses pulled by a C62 or, (if they're reasonably prototype-sensitive) a 1000 ton freight behind a D51.  The local freight (wayfreight, pickup goods, peddler, et al) is curiously lacking in photo documentation in Japan, which is strange since they were in operation even past the end of steam in 1975, as far as I know.  Then again, rail freight has until recently been ignored by most Japanese railfans, though now, with the increasing homogeneity of passenger trains, it's getting a look from them.

That seems to be a quirk with all manufacturers of model railroads all over the world. Look at the likes of Marklin, Trix, Roco, Fleischmann and Brawa. It is  the big engines they are selling, the spectacular ones, not your bread and butter locos that used to pull the early morning commuter train. Only recently some have discovered that there is a market for high quality smaller locos, but only after all manufacturers had their own version of the biggies.

[David]

Price can have something to do with it. The manufacturing cost (with tooling) is probably very close between small steamers and medium to large steamers. It's much easier to charge a higher price for the medium and large steamer then it is for a small one. In some cases making a reliable small steamer that can actually pull something might be more expensive.

[westfalen]

On the Trainboard forum someone visiting the NMRA convention on the weekend pumped the Kato rep for some answers as to what is planned for the American market, and while as usual they wouldn't confirm or deny anything it seems a new small American steam loco could be possible using Kato's coreless motor based on the success of recent Japanese steamers. If Kato is planning new American steam surely more new or retooled Japanese locos are on the cards as well.

[marknewton]

Same sort of thing happens in the U.S. Look at the American steamers you can get in N scale, Big Boys, Challengers, Daylights, Cab Forwards and so on sell like hotcakes but no one seems to want the ordinary workaday locomotives that did most of the work.

I think that's because those of us whose model railways are even vaguely prototypical are still in the minority. If a bloke is only going to have one or two steamers on their layout, they'll most likely go for something that will standout, such as a Big Boy, rather than something anonymous like a mid-sized 2-8-2.

Cheers,

Mark.

[Sir Madog]

Mark,

I think you have a good point here. People who are not so much prototype oriented as some of us, rather go for the spectacular rather than the mundane. With that in mind, Marklin was able to even market a Reichsbahn class 53 articulated steamer, which never left the drawing board. It was a big engine, looked right, so what...

[Triplex]

There's a reason in the US why the manufacturers pretty much have to aim steam models at the collector or casual runner.
There's a lot of very rough assumption here, but the point holds.
Assume US plastic RTR models are normally made in runs of 5000 or more. I know at least some Chinese manufacturers won't accept orders smaller than that. This appears necessary to maintain the ~$100 diesels and ~$200 steam North America has. In Australia, where production runs of 2-3000 are normal as far as I can tell, prices seem to be about twice that. Anyway, you need to be able to sell thousands of units to justify tooling for a plastic model.
Assume there are half a million model railroaders in the US (maybe a high-end estimate). Say 60%+ HO, 30% N. So about 150K N scalers.
How many of those modellers do steam era, or (even harder to tell) how many would if more products were available? At one time, of course, everyone modelled steam era - but that was before N scale, when steam still ran in real life. For purposes of this calculation, let's say 1/3 of them, or 50000 N scalers.
The problem is the large number of railroads in the US, most of which used unique steam designs, or designs shared with only individual other roads. Even USRA steam locomotives weren't made in the numbers of an F7 or SD40.
Some roads are popular out of proportion to their real-life size or traffic; others relatively ignored. For example, Missouri Pacific was about the same size as UP (before it bought MP). You wouldn't guess that from their railfan and modeller following. Still, on average...
http://cs.trains.com/TRCCS/forums/p/38263/489049.aspx  The US had 127 Class 1 railroads in 1950. Combined, they owned just over 40000 locomotives. The largest fleet belonged to the PRR, with about 3800. That is, no railroad held even 10% of the US locomotive fleet. So even a large railroad (by 1950 standards) will hold only a few % of the fleet, and we can assume only a few % of the modellers. Only PRR, NYC, SP and ATSF can be expected to hold over 2500 potential N-scale steam-era modellers! (Due to the disproportionate popularity I mentioned, I'd expect UP to fall in there, but not B&O which had a larger fleet.) For most railroads, you'd have to sell far more units than there are modellers to warrant a plastic model.
Once I did this estimate, it made sense why even brass manufacturers didn't supply N scale well. Yes, you can make much smaller runs. However, if you can sell a model at the predominant rate set by plastic models, you can assume that price won't be an obstacle for most of your market. Only a small fraction of those modellers will buy brass. This is particularly true because modellers now, particularly in N scale, think in terms of fleets rather than individual locomotives. While the typical small-layout modeller in the 1960s probably had only a couple locomotives, it seems like a couple dozen is pretty normal for modellers with fairly small N layouts today. This demand for more reduces the number of people willing to pay for brass, which reduces production volumes, which drives up prices. Now I see why the brass market collapsed.
That is, you can sell a plastic steamer for $200 if you sell 5000+ units, $400 if you sell 2000+ units, a brass steamer for $1000 if you sell 100 units. The problem is, for most railroads, you'll have only a few hundred modellers doing steam-era in the first place, most of whom can't afford to build a fleet at $1000 per engine.
This effect wouldn't exist for countries with state-run railways (read: almost everywhere else in the world, at least in later steam days) and standardized designs. (Now if the US had millions of modellers rather than hundreds of thousands, things would be different...)

[westfalen]

Say 60%+ HO, 30% N. So about 150K N scalers.

Even though HO has only twice the number of followers as N they get a darn sight more than twice the amount of steam.

[ShinCanadaSen]

Although it's not Japanese I would love a Garratt AD60 or something similar. I've seen a few online and they were custom orders and way out of my price range :(

I guess I validate the big and bold Loco's are more popular theory.

Kai

[linkey]

Although it's not Japanese I would love a Garratt AD60 or something similar. I've seen a few online and they were custom orders and way out of my price range :(

I guess I validate the big and bold Loco's are more popular theory.

Kai

Are you referring to the Australian Garratt AD60? There might be some Australian N scale modellers willing to do this as a project for sale but not sure who might be as there is a quiet a few Australian N scale guys getting Australian Rolling stock built now days.

[Triplex]

Even though HO has only twice the number of followers as N they get a darn sight more than twice the amount of steam.

That isn't so strange. The demand for steam doesn't concentrate strongly on a few prototypes. It's this spread that makes it hard to sell steam in US N scale. With twice the total number of modellers (and possibly a greater proportion of HO scalers doing steam than in N), that's an across-the-board increase. What I'm saying is, there are a lot of steam locomotives which are just outside the range for realistic marketing in N that could make the cut in HO.
My N estimate put only PRR, NYC, SP and ATSF in the 2500-5000 modellers range. Applying the same method to a market twice the size: HO gets PRR, NYC, SP and ATSF in the 5000-10000 range, B&O, UP, SOU, C&O, MILW, CNW, IC, CB&Q, GN and MP in 2500-5000.

[keitaro]

for the reasons stated above in all cases and relating to any product this is way online stores will become larger than a retail store and as people move more to pc's and online buying it could help the industry.

If i wanted to produce a model my self to sell i wouldn't have to worry about trying to get stores accross the us or australia for example to pick up a few from me. Example the 30 regular HO scale modellers in penrith and 2 or 3 N scale modellers would have no chance going to a local store to get the model they want nor is the store going to stock much of N and will most Likely charge a hefty premium to order a specific model in.

I could do my own store and sell them. covering the whole of australia or us for example. making it easier for those modellers  in N to get the models they want with out relying on the store to give a damn about them.

This doesn't relate only to modeling in any product it's becoming easier to sell something for a profit through online stores / service. This is only going to grow as more people move online as i understand not all people know how to use a pc for example.

[westfalen]

I think Japanese modellers are lucky in that there were, in later steam years at least, only a handful of classes from one railway and apart from a few oddballs most have been modeled. Most of the wish lists in Japanese steam would now be detail variations of the same class which manufacturers like Real Line are addressing with their different D51's.

If you model the US in the late steam era it's the exact opposite, for instance I model (or would like to) the late steam era Santa Fe but there is not a single typical Santa Fe steam loco available apart from Bachmann's dubious quality 4-8-4 unless you find some long out of production brass loco. For the price of one of those I can have a fleet of workaday Japanese steamers that are typical of any JNR line in the steam era, not just the Japanese equivalent of Big Boys and Cab Forwards or AD60's and streamlined C38's. For this reason, (being able to model the typical rather than the big or unusual) my modelling is increasingly leaning towards Japan.

[keitaro]

I think Japanese modellers are lucky in that there were, in later steam years at least, only a handful of classes from one railway and apart from a few oddballs most have been modeled. Most of the wish lists in Japanese steam would now be detail variations of the same class which manufacturers like Real Line are addressing with their different D51's.

D61's and 62's coming now so I read on some blogs. It is exciting news for me if correct. I got a few I would like to acquire. 

I could list about 15 models I want done but .... the wallet wouldn't allow it so I'll stick with the few I posted above.

15 x 280 aus = $4200 and a divorce paper.

[linkey]

That is way it is very hard to weigh up Steam trains or divorce papers. For me who is not married it is to get them (steam trains) first before getting married :D

[Triplex]

I think Japanese modellers are lucky in that there were, in later steam years at least, only a handful of classes from one railway and apart from a few oddballs most have been modeled. Most of the wish lists in Japanese steam would now be detail variations of the same class which manufacturers like Real Line are addressing with their different D51's.

http://homepage3.nifty.com/EF57/engines/LM-flame.html  As of (as far as I can judge) ~1950, there were 28 steam classes left on JNR. Considering the large number of Japanese modellers, that makes offering all of them a reasonable proposition.

If you model the US in the late steam era it's the exact opposite, for instance I model (or would like to) the late steam era Santa Fe but there is not a single typical Santa Fe steam loco available apart from Bachmann's dubious quality 4-8-4 unless you find some long out of production brass loco. For the price of one of those I can have a fleet of workaday Japanese steamers that are typical of any JNR line in the steam era, not just the Japanese equivalent of Big Boys and Cab Forwards or AD60's and streamlined C38's. For this reason, (being able to model the typical rather than the big or unusual) my modelling is increasingly leaning towards Japan.

It helps that Japan didn't have anything really large in the first place...

In the old days of US modelling, the reverse seems to have been true. Sure, many oddities were offered as models - but the bias was toward small steam. Multiple manufacturers offered Atlantics. That seems to have died down before N scale took off (about as fast as the Atlantic phase passed in real life), but another didn't. Everyone offered 0-6-0 and/or 0-4-0 tank engines, in a country where almost all common-carrier switchers were tender engines. The only reason I can guess at for these effects is that modellers thought small engines were appropriate for small layouts and short trains.

As already noted, Germany suffers heavily from the oddity effect too. In a country which did have standardized steam, often uncommon models get made first. Some of the decisions seem random. Now, sometimes I can see the desire to make something uncommon. For example, you want to offer a representative of some category of locomotives of which none were very common. But sometimes that isn't used appropriately.

Take the early days of Z scale. The first set of Marklin releases included an 03 4-6-2, 0-6-0T, V60 6-wheel diesel switcher, and one of the V160 family diesels. So, an express passenger steam engine, steam and diesel switchers, and a dual-service diesel. Why two switchers? Since switching went diesel before mainline trains in Germany, I'd have offered a 50 instead of the 0-6-0T to give a dedicated freight engine. Next year, they made a 2-6-0 and a railbus. The latter I get, but why not a P8, an all-purpose secondary-service engine that was even still in use at the time?

[Sir Madog]

My secret love is US prototype model railroading, which I am not doing for a simple reason - the lack of steam. Big Boys, Challengers - those spectacular steamers are just not my cup of tea. IMHO, there are only two decent steamers around - Kato´s USRRA Mikado and the new Bachmann 4-6-0. I am really surprised that no manufacturer dares to offer a PRR K4, a M1a or any other of those nice steamers of the "standard railroad of the World".

N scale still seems to be the stepchild f model railroading in the US.

[westfalen]

My secret love is US prototype model railroading, which I am not doing for a simple reason - the lack of steam. Big Boys, Challengers - those spectacular steamers are just not my cup of tea. IMHO, there are only two decent steamers around - Kato´s USRRA Mikado and the new Bachmann 4-6-0. I am really surprised that no manufacturer dares to offer a PRR K4, a M1a or any other of those nice steamers of the "standard railroad of the World".

N scale still seems to be the stepchild f model railroading in the US.

I'm on your side. I've got a second 4-6-0 on the way as we speak and I'm looking forward to the two Bachmann light 2-10-2's I have on order arriving, though they'll be painted for my own Westfalen & Gulf Railway rather than my beloved Santa Fe where the 2-10-2 was the primary freight loco of the steam era. You can't model steam era Santa Fe without Santa Fe 2-10-2's, the wheel arrangement was even called the 'Santa Fe' type.

I always have my doubts about the 60/30% ratio of HO and N scale modelers in the US, do the figures come from Model Railroader with their heavily weighted HO readership, the NMRA who thinks nothing decent can be done in scales smaller than HO or manufacturers like Walthers who seem to regard N scale as a toy scale compared to HO? Bachmann, oddly enough considering it's past reputation is the only mainstream manufacturer who seems to think their N scale line is worth improving, it's being left to the little guys like Fox Valley, BMLA etc to come up with innovative products.

[Webskipper]

N scale still seems to be the stepchild f model railroading in the US.

Stick around, N Scale will be more competitive by the end of the decade.  Well, depends on which age group, too. I still have my eyes and that's a factor in dealing with precision models.

[westfalen]

Don't know if anyone's seen this yet but it looks like Kato will be doing C62 2.
http://www.katomodels.com/n/c62/

[bill937ca]

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/RtRHwCIq97w" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/RtRHwCIq97w</a>

In Japan that is probably dubbed sound rather than DCC.

[Sir Madog]

Nice video!

The C 62 2 is definitively on my wish list. She is sold out at HS, so I have to wait for the next shipment.

[keitaro]

Nice video!

The C 62 2 is definitively on my wish list. She is sold out at HS, so I have to wait for the next shipment.

I got 2 and 3 due in mail today maybe ?? or tommorow it's sitting at depot according to the tracker.

pretty excited i'll probably buy a realline version if and when they do in the future.

[linkey]

Nice video!

The C 62 2 is definitively on my wish list. She is sold out at HS, so I have to wait for the next shipment.

I got 2 and 3 due in mail today maybe ?? or tommorow it's sitting at depot according to the tracker.

pretty excited i'll probably buy a realline version if and when they do in the future.

Depending on the courier service if they are working today. I am waiting for my order and just got into Australia before NYE, but had to wait due to New Years Day Holiday (Monday).

[marknewton]

I am really surprised that no manufacturer dares to offer a PRR K4, a M1a or any other of those nice steamers of the "standard railroad of the World".

Maybe because the Pennsy steam engines were fairly atypical of US locos? Just a thought... But, I agree with you though, the PRR rostered some very appealing machines. An M1 with a long-distance tender is a thing of beauty, IMO. My dad was a big Pennsy fan, and it rubbed off on me. 

Cheers,

Mark.