An Urban Tram/Bus Coffee-Table Layout

[KenS]

After staring at my Tomytec moving bus system for several weeks thinking "that's too cool to hide in the back of my big station", I decided to bite the bullet and build a small coffee-table sized tram layout.  This is an idea that had been kicking around for over a year, as I ended up with the bunch of Modemo trams and only a short bit of track on the big layout where they could run, likewise not very visible.  I'd picked up some Unitram plates, but hadn't liked how they worked with the Modemo's.  And the Tomix Wide Tram stuff had been attracting my attention.  The bus system finally pushed me into doing something.

Now, of course, the question is: just what is that something?  I know a few things:

- The bus needs at least one loop (two would be nice, but likely won't fit)
- The tram needs at least one loop, and preferably dual-track (two loops); this I might fit, as it's going to be the part I play with.
- I'd like to fit in a 2' x 4' footprint, for a variety of reasons related to available space and materials I plan to use (2' x X' insulation foam), and a thought that I may make this another 2'x4' section of the future "really big layout" (when I have a real basement   ),
- It's going to be urban, meaning mostly Kato and Tomix tower buildings, and an excuse for the main roads to be fairly wide.
- It's not going to be a recreation of any specific prototype (I have Setagaya trams and want in-street running, the two really don't mesh).

After a bit of thought, and playing with RailModeler, the best I could come up with was this triple-oval, which I really don't like very much.

Despite that, I ordered the track to make it (plus some more, to play with) and I'll start brainstorming in 3D when it arrives.  But if anyone has any suggestions, I'm listening...

Addenda: I might run a viaduct across the back.  I have some Kato viaduct track sections I'm not using, and they'd add a nice touch even without a train on them. The only problem is that it takes room from the tram and road parts.  Still thinking on that.

[Hobby Dreamer]

Hi Ken,
I don't know anything about the building side of things but from an aesthetic perspective it might be nice to break the loops. Sometimes a "jog" in the tracks could do it or even an elevation change. Tunnels work but you might be able to exploit your viaduct in some
way.

Maybe you could have the green track at left join the top-most siding track so the yard is not at the edge, but within.

Another approach might be to offset the whole thing so the track is not parallel to the table.

You could use the viaduct as a road highway and maybe place this at a non-90 degree angle. If you have a curve section then it does not have to go from one end to another but hint at some action.

Cheers
Rick

[rpierce000]

I would agree. Why not run the rails down main street and put the yard on one of the 2' ends? Or do a figure eight?

It might also be interesting to put a heavy rail interchange or platform somewhere for later connection to your dream layout.  It wouldn't have to DO anything, but it would add the "off the board" connection.

If you put all of the details on you buildings facing inward (streetward) they are going to be hard to see as you walk around the table. I think you may want to do some sight line work.

As a side note, has anyone ever seen a wall layout the way people do wall aquariums? I was thinking take a room dividing wall, bump it to 2'-3' thick, put a multi level layout in it.  Never seen it done, but....

Don't glue down the tracks, points for the bus lines are supposed to be coming!

[Bernard]

Ken - Are you going to build the coffee table or get it from a furniture store? I know IKEA used to have a coffee table that was great for train layouts.

[KenS]

Well, I was using "coffee table" as more of a size reference, although one of my thoughts is that the layout would be legless and could be set on my coffee table for use (another reason for the size).  I did think briefly of enclosing it and using it as a table, but with tower buildings it would be rather high.

A figure 8 would only work if I put the track inside the bus route, which has to be an oval/circle and can't cross the tracks . In fact, given the strength of the magnet used, I'm not sure Tomix can ever make a track-crossing for the buses.  It has a tendency to sieze even on it's own buried control magnets (not full stop, but sometimes it shudders when going over one). And reportedly this also happens with a Faller wire (which mounts in the surface of the roadway, not under it like Tomix's). From what I've read, that's one significant difference from the Faller design.

However, putting the yard on the end (or perhaps up the middle) is an interesting thought.  And "elevation" is making me think: with the buses ability to climb a 20-degree slope, I can get over track in in about a 10" run.  I'm thinking elevated highway across the rear third, with two on/off ramps and track running under and behind it. That fits the "urban" image rather nicely.

One of my other goals I forgot to mention was "keep it simple" to speed construction.  An elevated highway runs a bit counter to that, but may be worth it just for the three-dimensional aspect it would add.

[Mudkip Orange]

I like it...

such is the pain of the mega-layout project. By the time you reach 50% completion you're ready to start something new!

[Bernard]

In case you decide to enclose the layout in a coffee table....take a look at these 2 tables: 

http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/50087072
http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/20173066

[brill27mcb]

If you're going to move the storage yard to one end, why not put a 30-degree jog in the "upper" street on your diagram? Then locate the viaduct down the middle of the block, between the rows of buildings. That would break up the loop visually. I am assuming that a "coffee table" layout would be viewable from all sides. You might also want to leave things changeable, so that if (when) Tomix issues the 317mm bus roadway curve that it displayed in the system's debut last year, you can add an outer bus lane outside the tram lanes.

Rich K.

[bill937ca]

Inspiration for a fresh idea.  Filmed from under the Otsuka Yamanote line station. The Arakawa line does an S shaped jog to pass under the tracks.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/L2avrnUxyNQ" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/L2avrnUxyNQ</a>

[rankodd]

Interesting that there doesn't seem to be any crossing guard there. Probably at least lights, but there's no boom coming down...

[bill937ca]

Interesting that there doesn't seem to be any crossing guard there. Probably at least lights, but there's no boom coming down...

Many of the tram lines seem only have audio warnings. You can hear the sound as the violet Arakawa car approaches and less clearly due to track noise when the orange car crosses the crossing.

Another example, this one in Nagasaki.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/ybmTSBdCikk" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/ybmTSBdCikk</a>

Crossing gates would probably be down all day.  

[KenS]

If you're going to move the storage yard to one end, why not put a 30-degree jog in the "upper" street on your diagram? Then locate the viaduct down the middle of the block, between the rows of buildings. That would break up the loop visually. I am assuming that a "coffee table" layout would be viewable from all sides. You might also want to leave things changeable, so that if (when) Tomix issues the 317mm bus roadway curve that it displayed in the system's debut last year, you can add an outer bus lane outside the tram lanes.

My goal is really one-sided viewing (my coffee table sits in front of the couch, with the TV beyond it).  I may even do a small backdrop.

Wouldn't that be a 214mm curve to fit outside the 103/140/177 curves? I'd like that kind of double-busway plus track, but I think I'd need to step up to a larger footprint to make it all fit, unless all I had was a very simple oval. Another alternative would be to give up one tram line and have a 103Bus/140Tram/177Bus (this presumes a 177 bus curve is planned).

I tried doing some things with jogs, but I couldn't get an asymmetric track arrangement to line up.  This may be something I need to play with in 3D to find a good approach.

I did try the elevated roadway idea out (see track plan below), with a bit of a loop for the busway in the middle.  The downside is there's no place for a real yard/enginehouse, just some storage tracks slotted under the expressway. Of course, making use of the space under the expressway is very prototypical.  One thing that's clear from this is that I'll need more straight roadway sections, and right now the only way to get them is to buy the bus system.  I just reserved two more of those (hopefully they won't show up soon).

I'd forgotten about the Arakawa station (I've looked at photos of it in the past).  Maybe I could make a station like that under one end of the expressway on the green line.  Assuming I do an expressway.

@Bernard: nice coffee tables, but not really for me.
@Mudkip: well I haven't abandoned the old one, I'm just clearing my palate with something different.

[KenS]

The Setagaya line, in contrast, seems to have crossing gates on even very small crossings (see 0:19), although it's a bit more like a railway than a tram line in many regards.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/dPLNtKqNGEQ" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/dPLNtKqNGEQ</a>

[scott]

Ken -- I'm looking forward to seeing how this goes--looks like fun.

On that last design--could you make the blue line follow the yellow farther into the back corners and then snake back under the elevated expressway? Just wondering you can get a bit more track length and make the geometry a bit more irregular. Just a thought, possibly a really screwy one. 

[rpierce000]

I like everything about the second design except that one of your stops is on top of your crossover. I think you might want to move the crossover to one side, it is a good place for the stop.

Japanese commuter buses do not usually run on elevated highways, but there are trams that do. Perhaps you should reverse your thinking? (Trams up, buses down)

I assume the reason the bus route is that shape is what is in the box for the starter system.

[cteno4]

Ken

Fun idea! I like your second plan has that transit plaza feel in the center.

Did you look at a folded figure 8 ?

Cheers

Jeff

[KenS]

I can't bring the tram up to the highway.  The reason I can do that with the bus is that it can climb a 20% grade.  The only way to get a tram that high would be a long grade; not impossible, but it's not going to look like a highway ramp, and it would take away space I want to use for the city.

That's the same problem I see with the folded figure 8, too much up and down. I could tuck the crossing away in the back, but I'd lose most of the sides to ramps.

For those not familiar with the bus system, it comes with a half circle of R103 roadway and a half-circle of R140 roadway, plus 8 70mm straight sections, three of which are the bus stop.  You can make an slightly angled oval with that, and with two a dual-lane road with two buses. To make the expressway version would take three of these due to the number of straight sections.  I have two already, and had been thinking of getting at least one more for another bus, so that's not a problem for me.  It is surprising they didn't make the roadway sections available separately when the bus system came out, but perhaps they have a limited production quantity.

I do like the "plaza" at the front.  I'm a bit worried that the way I've done it using R140 curves may take it back too far, impacting the route of the tram at the rear.  That's needed with two bus system sets, but with four I can switch to R103 curves, which should make that more practical (you can see where this is going...).  I'll see how that looks in the next iteration of the track plan later this weekend.

That crossing is a real nuisance.  Scott's idea of moving the blue line further back is something I'll look into.  Maybe it will let me put the crossing off to one side.  I agree it looks bad front-and-center.

[disturbman]

What I'm thinking is:

1/ You could have two loops (one tram and one bus) and a point to point tram line.
2/ The point to point tram line is elevated and connects to the bus loop with some stairs linking both stops on those lines.
3/ The tram loop goes under the elevated line.
   a/ In a tunnel, the point to point line is on a higher part of the city
   b/ The elevated line is only on a viaduct and you might be able to keep the storage tracks behind. The elevated line is used a scenic breaker.
4/ The tram loop uses R140 or R177 curves and the bus loop R103 or R140 curves, both loops are (in the front of the layout) side to side.

I hope you can understand what I mean.

[cteno4]

good point vincent, a point to point might be fun. helps stop the loop-t-loop-t effect! this is the problem i have with the small tram layouts with a loop after a dozen circles they tend to make me loose attention. one of the reasons i have not yet set up my unitram. point to point always seems a bit more interesting for some reason.

last year i started to investigate ideas for doing a small tram layout for something to play with easily and cart around. i knew loops were death for me, so i worked on a folded figure 8 design that gave me a sort of randomly running tram around 4 small blocks of scenery an then i was looking at a loop around the whole thing as the loop on the outside would be more obscured with the blocks of scenery and the more random inner folder figure 8 i hoped would break it up. ended up with something i was pretty happy with but got side tracked on other projects.

cheers

jeff

[Hobby Dreamer]

Some really good ideas disturbman!

Ken, the best part of this hobby is that you can dry fit the layout or easily change it should you adopt new track of structures etc.

Its cool that you have both the bus and tram tracks.

Cheers
Rick

[KenS]

Hmm, I'll have to give that elevated point-to-point concept some thought and try working up a track plan for it.  It sounds like an interesting approach, and while I want two tram lines and a loop, nothing says I need two loops.

Meanwhile, I worked up a variation on my last track plan using R103 roadway curves exclusively (this requires four sets of Bus Set A to get all the curves needed) and what I think Jeff was suggesting with the blue line at the back.  I didn't quite have enough space in the middle for a second bus stop (I tried), and the blue line has an alignment problem (but that may just be RailModeller being quirky, I'll have to try it in real life and see if it works).  That is, indeed, one of the nice things about sectional track like Unitrack and Finetrack: it's easy to try out a track plan and adjust it.

This design does have the benefit of putting the crossover off to the left, out of the way. Although I don't like the s-curve it creates on the inner line.  I'm not sure my Modemo articulated Setagaya trams can negotiate that reliably (another thing to test once my track comes in).

[ShinCanadaSen]

That last plans looks real nice. I would see if maybe the tram storage could turn 90 from the top of the loop and pass under the bus overpass and make it come off the inner loop that could solve your s-curce issue. That way you could incorporate a tram shed or little service area. May not work with the limited space though.

Kai

[keiman]

Agree Ken,
The last one looks the best.
Have you tried laying your own bus track yet to see if you can get the buses going round tighter more realistic curves?
Will be watching with great interest.

[brill27mcb]

Here's a version that gets rid of the bus incline, which I think might eat up batteries, or at least make them unusable sooner (stalling on the hill). This version makes two bus lanes for a portion of the back road. (I use AnyRail, so squint and imagine your nice colored tracks, roads and buildings on this drawing.) I think the busway is just one 70mm straight more than two bus sets, if you can fit in the second bus stop. Don't worry about the joint miss on your tram track -- it will fit fine. The miss in the busway is more significant, but things in the real world will probably work out. Using the 140mm bus curves, as I have shown, lessens the mis-fit and saves on bus sets needed.

Rich K.

[scott]

Ken -- your last one looks good; that's exactly what I was suggesting (not that that makes it anything special, of course).

[cteno4]

a couple of years ago i played a lot with my faller bus with wire under chipboard to see what sort of interesting things it could do. you could make some pretty tight turns but it needed an easement to do it well and consistently, unfortunately i didnt take notes or pictures and then i got distracted with other things (oooh bright shiny object syndrome) so i cant remember exactly what the shape was that made it look more like it was turning a normal street corner. only took an evening though of fiddling to figure it out. i wanted to have a bus looping on my ttrak street car modules (you can use scotch tape to bridge the module gaps for the bus!)

this is my only problem with using the tomytec roads as they are not in chunks that really look like most street corners out there.

i think if i ever do implement the bus ill probably do my own streets and wire. its good to hear that the tomytec steering magnet is more powerful than the faller one!

cheers

jeff

[KenS]

Although I like the elevated highway, I may need to give up on it.  For some reason, even though earlier testing showed negligible slip on a 20% slope, I'm now seeing much more.  I set up an oval with three straights on the side and a 2.25" climb (about a 15% slope), and both buses had serious slip problems. Lengthening the side to four straights (12.5% slope) didn't help.  And oddly, it was after it made the curve and hit the straight where it had problems.  I thought it might be the specific roadway sections, but swapping them with others (and wiping them down to remove any dust) didn't help.

It may be that my earlier testing was entirely on a straight, and this has the bus coming out of a curve, so it's probably moving slower.  But the problem doesn't seem to set in until the bus has straightened out, which isn't what I'd expect if that were the cause. And both buses are equally affected (and one has nearly new batteries) so I don't think it's a power problem or something to do with the individual bus.

Rich's variation that keeps things level is looking pretty attractive right now.

If I do go for level, I may put a viaduct at the back (or near the back) to represent an elevated Shinkansen line.  Probably no place to fit any kind of station. Although I'll give that some thought; a commuter/tram/bus station at the back would be cool, even without actual commuter trains.

[KenS]

Have you tried laying your own bus track yet to see if you can get the buses going round tighter more realistic curves?
Will be watching with great interest.

For this layout, I want to use entirely pre-made roadway.  Part of my goal here is seeing what I can do with maximum use of out-of-the-box ready-to-use stuff.

For the bus station on my main layout, I do plan to lay my own roads, and thus will need to do my own wire there.  Experimenting with that is likely a late summer or fall activity (which probably means winter the way my time estimates tend to be); too many other things need attention first there.

[disturbman]

After seeing this last track plan I'm feeling a bit concerned, are you sure you will have enough space to include any kind of scenery? ;)

[KenS]

Well, the city is the scenery, but there is a bit of "too much track" syndrome going on here.  I can't really avoid that given the space constraint I've set myself and the desire for two loops (the loop+linear idea just isn't sparking my imagination). But part of the problem is the regularity of the track, all those squarish ovals within ovals. Something with more angles is needed.

I tried a flat track plan along the lines of Rich's plan, but didn't like it.  Then I tried an under-the-viaduct plan, and the best I could come up with was the V5 plan below, which just wasn't working out.  So I decided to try something a little different, and ended up with the V6 plan below.  This has more room on the right side for buildings with small streets/alleys between them, and a better plaza on the left, plus an angled avenue with both tram and bus in the back.

Still not sure that's it, but it's feeling better.

[Hobby Dreamer]

Hi Ken,

I'm really liking V6 - its a lot of progress from the original, given the constraints.

There was great feedback from the forum, as always. 

Cheers
Rick

[cteno4]

ken,

i like V6, like you say in such a tiny space its easy for the track to take over, but v6 does not have the loop tee loop feel to it as much!

cheers

jeff

[rpierce000]

I like V6 a LOT, but V5 would be cool if you are going to "paste" it into a large layout later. Not enough layouts have a Tram/Bus/Heavy Rail junction and with a station on that viaduct you would have that.

Another option, and this is a BIT crazy, is to go subway. I have NO idea how much space a helix would take up at tram radii, but what if you had a 103 helix down to a second level for a larger storage yard or even "subway" access to a lower level of heavy subway like your V5 but inverted?

Just spitballing....

[KenS]

Another option, and this is a BIT crazy, is to go subway. I have NO idea how much space a helix would take up at tram radii, but what if you had a 103 helix down to a second level for a larger storage yard or even "subway" access to a lower level of heavy subway like your V5 but inverted?

A helix is ultimately controlled by grade, not radius.

While a tram can probably negotiate a steeper grade than a freight train or ten-car passenger consist, that's still not a lot.  You get about 6 1/4" of run per loop for every inch of radius. Asuming you need about 2" of rise (5 cm) per loop (which would require fairly thin construction), a 4% grade needs to run 50" (1.27m) each loop.  That works out to an 8" radius (~20cm).  If a 6% grade could be used, the run would be 33 1/3", and the radius 5 1/4" (13.5 cm), but that might be pushing it for a grade on a curve. So R140 track is probably too sharp, but R177 or greater is probably needed.

A 103mm radius (4") helix would have a run of 25" (64cm) per loop. A 2" (5 cm) rise in that run would be 8%, which is likely too steep.

So I could fit a helix, assuming the trams would cooperate, but it would occupy about a third of the layout.

Another way to do it is an oval "helix" across the back.  There you've got ~100 inches per loop, even if you use R103 curves at the ends, so even a 2% grade becomes practical. But even with 103mm curves you're loosing 8" off the back of at least 1/2 the layout (4% grade).  It's a bit more efficient, but still a big chunk or real-estate.

It's something to think about, but probably a bit much for this layout.  I'm also doing a subway on my big layout, so another one is less interesting.

I do like the idea of re-using this is a future around-the-wall layout, and that's a reason to have something like a viaduct, but at least so far that would seem to severely limit my design options.

[disturbman]

Really like the V6 but still think it could use some more tweaking. I was wondering if you could decouple the tram/bus loops on the right side. You could maybe insert the buildings on the far right between the bus and tram tracks and have the trams run on balasted tracks instead of roadbeded ones there.

I was also wondering what would happened if the yard was on the blue loop and not on the green one.

Well. I know you'll keep playing around and come up with something even more interesting.

[KenS]

The decoupling idea was a very good one. That three-lane highway just looked wrong, but a one-lane (37mm is closer to two lanes anyway) street looks much better, or at least I think it will from the track-plan.  I didn't swap the yard around though.  I can't see a way to do it without losing the diagonal avenue, and I like that feature. The track-plan is beginning to feel close to done, and I'm eager to get started trying it out.

And this afternoon, the postman brought me a present: a really large box of track (photo below).  It's probably not everything I'll need, but it's a lot of it, and enough to get started with trying things out in 3D.

The wooden platform the track is on is the layout base.  Yet another of my 2x4 plywood handy-panel and 1x3 pine boxes.  It just needs a coat of primer to seal the wood (that's drying as I type) and I can start playing with it.

[disturbman]

This last track plan does look better than the previous ones. Now we have to wait for your 3D try outs.

[KenS]

Well, Rail Modeler wasn't lying about the problem on the alignment of the inner tram loop.  I need a short bit (~30mm) of straight track to close the circuit, which isn't a size Tomix makes as far as I know, and even then it's not quite in the right place.  I may need to revise the track plan to deal with the alignment issue.

I also need to order some 70mm wide tram track (HS is presently sold out so I didn't include any in my recent order from them). 

And until my additional bus sets come in (August?) I'm way short of track for the bus line, although I was able to check out parts of it.

But on the plus side, the overall look is about what I was expecting, the scale of the buildings to the track/road between them looks reasonable, and the outer loop went together just fine (not surprising, as it's just an oval).

And one of my Modemo Setagaya line 300 Series trams has made a loop of the outer line to inaugurate the layout.  It's progress.

[rpierce000]

My wholesaler is telling me that shorter Wide Tram track will not be out until at least mid June. Apparently it was more popular than they anticipated and sold a lot when the bus systems came out.

The bus system is re releasing as well.

[disturbman]

Nice!

Well. For the moment, you could simply order regular Fine Track for mimicking the bus loop and to try to fill the gaps.

One bad note (for me), the three lane road is not at all to my taste. It's too heavy to the eye and actually doesn't look very real/urban to me. I don't understand how the road system is supposed to work like that. I then wonder if you wouldn't be better modelling a double bus loop and a single tram line on normal ballasted track. Something inspired by the Enoshima.

Sorry for the criticism, I do like the project and what you have come up with. :)

[KenS]

I may be able to use ordinary fine-track to correct the gap on the straight section, and there are several short fine-track sizes.  I'm going to order some and play with them.

The front "avenue" is too wide (111mm is 16.65m is 54.6 feet, or more than four lanes even for a highway). But I'm thinking a fence and some scenery can make the bus lane look like a separate street briefly paralleling the main one, which would then be smaller.

A differing opinion isn't criticism, or at least not if offered constructively.  In any case, I asked for opinions, so any opinion is good.  Even if I don't agree with it, I may learn something from it.  And in this case, at least partially, I do agree.

Yeah, my HS order for the bus system shows August as the expected date.  I can hope the wide tram track shows up sooner (June would be nice), but the layout isn't going to be completed until then at least.  Which gives me more time to dither about the track plan, something I excel at. 

One thing that is interesting.  On the underside of the wide tram casting, in the center, is a groove with periodic plastic nubs that look like they could hold the bus guidewire in place.  And it turns out that the nickle-silver alloy used in the rails doesn't attract the bus guide magnet.  So, in theory, you could use one lane for both bus and tram, although having some way to get the bus in and out would be needed. 

It shouldn't be too hard to hack this up with some steel wire of the appropriate diameter for that matter. I don't think I'd use that for this layout, since it goes against the "do it with out-of-the-box" materials approach I wanted to use. But it's something I'll think about.

[Hobby Dreamer]

The front "avenue" is too wide (111mm is 16.65m is 54.6 feet, or more than four lanes even for a highway). But I'm thinking a fence and some scenery can make the bus lane look like a separate street briefly paralleling the main one, which would then be smaller.

Great idea Ken!

I have to admit that I get frustrated with the current tram track offerings. I like it when trams pass by each other at close proximity but the major sore point is that both track systems get wide fast. And despite that tremendous road width there is no place for road vehicles!

You did a great job designing your layout, and despite the road width you have several interesting sections. Maybe foliage/scenery is a good way to detract.

Rick

[KenS]

I came up with another track plan.  This one changes the outer loop into something like a small rail line (probably limited to a 1-2 car commuter train, if I can get one to navigate a 177mm curve) and pushes the "avenue with a median strip" to the front, and the "transit plaza" to the back, while integrating that with a dual-track dummy line run across the back.

It's got a lot of pluses, not least of which is that the tracks all line up. But I'm losing the "tram running between buildings" aspect, since there's no room for buildings outside the tram loop (and making the loop smaller kills the avenue). So I'm not sure I really like this one.

[scott]

Yeah, I dunno--I like the idea, but I'm not sure it works as well as V6.

[Mudkip Orange]

I like it.

Now you have a bus loop in the shape of a bus window.

[Hobby Dreamer]

The idea of a train station is interesting - a good focal point.. The best part of fixed track is that its easy to change.

[scott]

Just a thought, but maybe V6 is best if you want to have the bus system, and a variant of this most recent would be better for heavy rail and tram combined,  but without the bus. (I'd rather have the latter myself, but this isn't my layout.  )

[KenS]

After thinking it over a long time, I've decided to go with a variant of the "bus window" track plan (below).  The only real change is that the bus roadway is shortened a bit so that it isn't adjacent to the track at the left side.  This brings the bus across the corner of the planned transit plaza (I'll build a bus station on that side) but avoids the "bus always next to track" problem, at least somewhat.

I'm also going to make the outer loop a "commuter" line, probably using a one-car Series 125 EMU, if it will navigate a 177mm curve. I'll have to wait until the preorder comes in, which means September.  But I'll start construction before that and just switch to some other car if it doesn't work.  I'm also going to make the outer loop signaled using Tomix's signals to add a bit more activity (and because I'm curious how well they work).  I've already picked up a TCS-equipped Tomix power pack for that purpose.

I don't have all the track I need, but I mocked it up with what I have and placed a few buildings and it looks reasonable. An order for a bunch of finetrack just went out to BTTrains (I've ordered from them once before) and I need to send HS an order for some Tomix signals shortly. Actual construction will begin once I have those in hand.

[FFISKIV]

I too have considered the bus route but wanted to incorporate it into my unitram layout somehow. Do you think the magnets are strong enough to work thru the unitram plates?  Otherwise I fear I'll have to build a 2nd layout which I dont mind but my wife will as my current layout takes up most of one room already. I like your designs, and wish you luck.

[KenS]

I think the control magnets would (they're quite strong).  The question is going to depend on the steering magnet, which is smaller.  And also on the thickness of the Kato plate and the size (thickness) of the guide wire you use.  The Tomix wire is set into a notch in the underside of the plate, so it's closer to the surface than it might otherwise be, but it's not the same as a wire set into the top (I've read of problems with Tomix buses and Faller surface-mounted wires).

I think the only way to know for sure is to test it, and maybe try different-size wires.

Thanks for the comments on the tram layout. Construction started this weekend (another benefit of it not being my Project Party project).