Layout ready to start building!

[Dani]

Hi! I've been working in a new layout, and I want to start building it right now or I'll be all my life doing little modifications because always find something to do better! It's planned with Peco CODE 55 track and servos to move the switches (all in DCC).



It's a double track dogbone with an elevated area with narrow curves for a small train to bring passengers to the temple / baths area, a center area for goods transit, and the lower / right part for a city. It also has a small hiden station. I tried to mix a bit of everything.... :S
Shinkansens can avoid to to go up to this temple area and run always along the dogbone (curves > 329mm). Is this radius enough for long shinkansens? I also avoided ramps > 3%. I've planned the stations for 1 meter long trains, how long is a shinkansen? Enough?


Before setting this layout as definitive, any sugestions?

Thanks!!!
m(_ _)m

[keitaro]

looks pretty epic 

[KenS]

The length of a Shinkansen depends on the train, and whether you want to be identical to the prototype or not.  Some of them are 16 cars long, and take more than 2m of platform. But there are smaller ones.  Is there a specific train or line you're interested in, or just a generic "bullet train"?

It's not clear to me where you were planning to put the platforms. Would they be curved? Tomix does make some curved platforms, but the selection is less than for straight ones.

It looks like an interesting design.  Remember to allow for access to the hidden tracks to fix derailments and to clean the track. And keep us updated on progress.

[Dani]

The length of a Shinkansen depends on the train, and whether you want to be identical to the prototype or not.  Some of them are 16 cars long, and take more than 2m of platform. But there are smaller ones.  Is there a specific train or line you're interested in, or just a generic "bullet train"?

It's not clear to me where you were planning to put the platforms. Would they be curved? Tomix does make some curved platforms, but the selection is less than for straight ones.

It looks like an interesting design.  Remember to allow for access to the hidden tracks to fix derailments and to clean the track. And keep us updated on progress.

I was thinking in a shinkansen like Nozomi from Kato, 8 cars. How long can it be? (http://cgi.ebay.com/Shinkansen-700-Nozomi-8-cars-Kato-10-276-10-277-/120697331814?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item1c1a1f2066#ht_5549wt_1139)

About the platform, now it's a bit more than 1 meter. It will be situated between the 3 gray tracks and the 2 red ones. I'll try to post a render to see it better.

Thanks all!!

[Martijn Meerts]

A full length 16-car shinkansen is around 250 cm, so 8 part would be around 120 cm. You could go for the series 800 shinkansen though, which is 6 cars and looks real good. There have also been various other 6-car shinkansen releases. 329mm should be enough for all shinkansen btw.

Since you're using Peco, you might have a look at modifying the turnouts a bit. They can cause shorts (the electrofrog ones) around the frog. With DC operation it's not an issue, but with DCC it might cause the command station to shut down or report false occupancy of blocks. When they get older, they can also start showing power routing problems from the closure rails to the point rails, which causes the point rails to be without power. Some people say you HAVE to drop feeders from various parts of the turnout, but it's really just sort of a safety net (better to spend some extra time now and wire them up completely, than to have to go back and replace the turnout at a later time)

If you're using electrofrog turnouts, you'll likely need a way to polarize the frog. Various servo controllers can do this. Personally I'm using the ESU switchpilot servo and switchpilot extension combination, which works rather nice.

[keitaro]

In regards to corner platforms I was told they are a no go for shinkansens because they stick out on corners too much and rub?

back on topic

I don't think you will be putting more than 6 cars if you want it to fit the station.

[Dani]

Finally I found information about car length for Tomix series 500 Nozomi: Cab cars: 170mm, other 158mm.

So, the basic 3 car set + 4 cars Add-on set measures a total of: 1130 mm.

I should do it just a little bit longer....

[Bernard]

Dani - I like your design but I do have one concern......the hidden area in the center for the layout which looks to be a yard, how accessible is that going to be if a train derails? Also maintenance of the track and turnouts in a hidden area.

I also run Shinkansen's on my layout and in my test I found that a safe radii was 17.5" or 444.5mm, I have one area in my yard that the radii is 16" (or 406.4mm) and my 700 can't handle it.
The look of the code 55 is going to look great and Peco does make it with concrete ties. One thing to note, the Shinkansens sit very low to the track and are very sensitive to bumps, this usually happens with flex track when soldering the curves so you have to be extra careful making them.

Another point, since you'll be doing DCC you will have to run feeder wires from the top level through the bottom level to the underside of the layout....just plan it out that the feeder wires don't get in the way.

I look forward to seeing how your layout comes together!

[Dani]

Thanks for these great sugestions!!

My idea is to build the structure with wood ribs. I can print the ribs' plans at 1:1 from the design software (wintrack) taking into account the holes for tracks and the terrain silhouette. It will not be built from a flat table. So all points are accesible from the bottom.

Now I'm worried about the radius... I saw on that post (http://www.jnsforum.com/index.php?topic=1996.0) that 280mm was the minimum radius to avoid problems... ooops...

[Martijn Meerts]

Thanks for these great sugestions!!

My idea is to build the structure with wood ribs. I can print the ribs' plans at 1:1 from the design software (wintrack) taking into account the holes for tracks and the terrain silhouette. It will not be built from a flat table. So all points are accesible from the bottom.

Now I'm worried about the radius... I saw on that post (http://www.jnsforum.com/index.php?topic=1996.0) that 280mm was the minimum radius to avoid problems... ooops...

I believe Kato has 315mm as minimum, Tomix has 317mm as minimum. Many shinkansen can also handle 280mm. None of my shinkansen have issues with a Tomix 317mm curve.

[David]

Kato brand Shinkansens are almost all 315mm, though many can run (not ideally) on 282mm. Tomix are mostly 280mm. However these radii mentioned are for the proper operation of the trucks and couplers - it does not take into consideration the large loading gauge of 25m Shinkansens which will cause them to hang over the edge of the track much more then a regular 20m train car.

You'll need to test any track side structures or obstructions on curves (like tunnel portals, overhead wiring masts and fences) to make sure Shinkansens won't hit them (you may need to get creative to hide the loading gauge issue when planting masts on sharp curves). This is also why curved platforms are out completely (you also need to be careful with any curved approachs to straight platforms).

[angusmclean]

May I suggest a bay platform from the station and elevate to the hill area as this would give you the opportunity to run a variety of  railcars and short  freight operation to a small branch station which would widen the scope of operation.

Angus

[Mudkip Orange]

This is indeed an epic layout plan. Linn Westcott is smiling from the afterlife.

I'm with Angus, though. If you move the switches from the mainline to the temple/bath spur out of the tunnel and into the station area, it'll let you run temple trains independently of whatever's on the main line.

See attached for an example.

[Dani]

Nice idea Angus & Mudkip!!!! It would be something like that. See that I can't expand the cyan track, it's not at the same height than the others:

[Barobutt]

How will you access all that underground track?

[David]

What program is this by the way? I've seen these plan -> 3D screnshots a few times in recent weeks. Does this program come with Kato sectional track definitions, or is it just flex track and peco?

[Dani]

Barobutt: I want to build it with ribs, so from the under I can access everywhere. I also planned the hidden station to be 10 cm. lower than the lowest level to have enough room for my hand.  

David: It's wintrack 8.0. It's not the last version, but really powerfull. You have all the libraries in N from KATO, Minitrix, Peco code 80, Peco code 55, Fleischmann, Arnold and Roco!!!! It also includes flex track, auto-connecting, and many usefull features. And just drawing a line it generates the rib plan to help you build the structure, here I show you a screenshot of the ribs generation, that you can print in 1:1

[Dani]

I started to build!!!!! After one year of drawings and plans, I finally started. It will grow very slowly, but with no pauses.... :)



Post in my blog --> here

[Bernard]

I like how you transferred you plan onto the layout board. I had to transfer my layout by hand....like you's a lot better :)

[KenS]

The start of construction is a big event, and for me at least a nerve-wracking one. Now you get to see how good your plans were, and, inevitably, discover something overlooked that causes you to adjust them.  If you do have problems, don't get discouraged.  We've all been there, I think, and mostly managed to work through any that came up.

Keep us posted on your progress as construction proceeds.  Watching someone else build a layout is almost as much fun as building one, and much easier on the nerves.    And don't hesitate to ask if you have any questions.

[Mudkip Orange]

Awesome! Lookin' forward to construction photos.

[Dani]

I can't believe it!!!! I cut all the wood, everything seems to feet with no problems, and I still have all my fingers!!!! But I'm even more scared, something wrong will appear... I'm never so lucky...     :S

But I will not discover it until next holidays :( :( :( I'll keep posting!!





Original post: here

[Dani]

Layout finished!!!! It's been an insane work, with many beginner problems, but the result is stable, really light weight and strong to hold even me on the top (I'm quite big... no kidding...). Many things could have been done better, but being the first model that I build different from a flat table with tracks on the top I'm really satisfied.

I link the post of my blog here where I explain materials and how I built it.



Regards!

[The_Ghan]

Dani,

I'd missed your thread before.  Having looked at your track plan I strongly suggest you look at my post here: http://www.jnsforum.com/index.php/topic,4660.msg51678.html#msg51678 and download the two attachments about John's layout.  Also, read up in the DCC section about stopping trains in the right place.  Basically, your layout needs "slow down" and "stop" blocks for correct DCC control.  You also have reversing loops - two that I can see (having had a closer look it is actually only one - in dark red).  These also need special attention.

Even if you plan to choose (or have chosen) a different DCC manufacturer, I suggest you read up on the Digitrax webpage - one of the best explanations I have found on how to do these things.

I noticed that you're using flex for long straights.  You'll need a short piece at the front end of each station with one rail isolated to be a "Stop" block.  Generally about a car length, 140mm, is enough.

I think the layout you've come up with is fantastic.  You've obviously thought carefully about how all this works and I'm looking forward to seeing more progress.  In the meantime, make sure your wiring is right for DCC.

Cheers

The_Ghan

[Bernard]

Dani - What a complex layout you've designed and built! You're carpentry skills are first rate.

[Dani]

Thanks!!! This layout is only possible thanks to the knowledge that all you spread across this fantastic forum.

Ghan: I already read this fantastic documents. I'm testing exactly what you say. I have isolated about 30cm of the end of the tracks (I realised the consumption sensor activates when all the car is in the isolated section, not only the first wheels) and I also put a detection before entering the yard station to slower the locos speed. As the hidden station is long enough (1,2 mts) I also divided two of the tracks with an extra detection section in the middle to be able to "store" two short trains instead of a long one. I have 3 reversing loops in my layout and my idea is to use bistable relays to switch the polarity. My Uhlenbrock detection modules can activate any Loconet output with any flank of the detection signal apart from informing the computer and that's how I'll change the state of the relay. I prefer this than using short-circuit modules (cheaper and also not depending of a computer software).

Bernard: I was scared to start such a complex model for a beginner like me, but now I'm sure everybody can do it. Just one recommendation: TONS OF PATIENCE. Check everything twice before fixing, work in the plan one full year if necessary, read a lot, ask a lot, search for videos, photos and read every post of this forum.

I'll post next advances!!! Bye!

[john_ibw]

Your benchwork. Awesome!

Bernard: I was scared to start such a complex model for a beginner like me, but now I'm sure everybody can do it. Just one recommendation: TONS OF PATIENCE. Check everything twice before fixing, work in the plan one full year if necessary, read a lot, ask a lot, search for videos, photos and read every post of this forum.

Can't agree more! If I may also add, in my case and relating to Japanese N scale, I can't imagine how I would I have managed without this forum and support from members

[Mudkip Orange]

Yeah, that's primo benchwork.


So when are you gonna lay the track?

[disturbman]

There is already some, it's more visible on Dani's weblog but he has layed the whole hidden yard,

By the way, Dani, great that you started to post your blog in english! It makes everything easier for the few of us that don't read spanish. :)

[Dani]

Thanks for your support, you are pushing me to never stop.. 

I want to share a pair of tips I use for fixing tracks (http://clubncaldes.blogspot.com/2011/06/my-tips-for-laying-track.html) because using a small hammer with those microscopic nails and my big and clumsy hands was hurting to much my fingers!

Also, how I manage to connect feeders to the main DCC loop (http://clubncaldes.blogspot.com/2011/06/electrical-tip-loop-and-feeders.html)

Disturbman: I'm doing my best with my English, but as I'm not an English speaker and I wrote a big percentage of the words (and 100% of the technical words) thanks to the dictionary, I'm conscious it will have many errors...    Please tell me directly what is wrong or impossible to understand!!! 

[The_Ghan]

Dani,

Interesting solution to nailing down your track.  I use a magnetic nail punch, myself.  Seems to be working well.

I think you're using Peco track, right?  If so, how do you find the Peco point motors?  I had to replace two today because the humidity has caused them to rust and they didn't work properly.

Cheers

The_Ghan

[KenS]

Dani, excellent work.  I really like those track feeders.

And your use of English is quite good. I have no troulble understanding it, and aside from an occaisional phrasing choice, most of it reads like what a native speaker would write. Keep posting on your progress and ideas.

I've tried to post a couple of comments to your blog using name/url, but when I click either preview or post, the comment just disappears with no message shown and no comment posted.

Here's my comment on your use of CA glue with wood:

I'd heard there were superglue (cyanoacrylic) glues formulated for wood, but I've never used them.  Usually superglue has problems with shear (sideways forces) and only holds well for tension (pulling forces). Is this why you also used screws? I usually use yellow wood glue (the waterproof kind), but it needs to be clamped and takes longer to dry.  I'm curious how well the glue you're using works.

[Dani]

@Ghan: What's a magnetic nail punch? I'm using Minitrix (code 80) but only for the hidden yard. The only reason is that I already had enough material to do it. Some switch solenoid point motors were 10 years old and the flex track more than 15 and everything is in good state. For the rest of the layout I plan to use Peco code 55 and under-desk servos for switches. I'll use the same servos used in other RF hobbies that now Uhlenbrock is selling. I've seen tortoises in action, but I feel Hi-tech servos are more reliable and small.

@KenS: Estrange what you say about posting comments in my blog... I'll take a look... 
The cyanoacrylic glue I use is specific for wood (or they sell it in this way...) and you can find exactly the same brand and reference (Würth) almost everywhere, they are present in more than 82 countries. I've tested it before use, and trying to separate two pieces glued 5 minutes before the wood was broken but not the joint. It's stronger that "white glue" or "carpenter glue" (literal translation from spanish) but it's true that it's not so flexible and that's why it can "brake" with sideways forces (brutal sideways forces... ). But traditional glue is too flexible, that's the reason to use both: I use cyanoacrilate only to fix ribs to frame and not the rib to rib joints. It's also very useful if you have to work alone and nobody can help you to hold pieces in place: one drop of cyanoacrylate, spray and you can hang yourself from that piece immediately!  xDDD Until now I'm very happy with this combination of glues and screws because the result is really strong and you can work really fast, no need to spend one day waiting to dry.

[KenS]

That cyanoacrylic glue sounds worth checking out for my future work.

And we call the yellow water-safe version of white glue "Carpenter's Glue" too.

[The_Ghan]

Dani,

This is the exact nail punch I use.  http://www.toolstore.com.au/estore/style/st58.930.aspx  It is magnetic and will pick up small nails.

Cheers

The_Ghan

[john_ibw]

Dani, I got myself a magnetic nail-driver for N/HO track laying.

It looks something like this http://store.workshopsupply.com/catalogue/blackjack-brad-nail-driver-p-2363.html

And I got mine from frontline hobbies here https://www.frontlinehobbies.com.au/products/PP08000?RAIL%20MAGNETIC%20NAILER%20N/HO?RAIL%20MAGNETIC%20NAILER%20N/HO

[Dani]

I finished laying tracks for the hidden yard. I've connected point motors and detection sections, and seems to work very well.
I'm realizing how messy can become the wiring of the layout... just with that there are a lot of meters of wire!!! I'm trying to use a easy color code, wire clips, bridles with labels... or it will be a chaos.

Now I have to wait until my Peco 55 track arrives from Hattons..... tomorrow is the deadline according of what they said....



Complete post in my blog here: http://clubncaldes.blogspot.com/2011/07/hidden-yard-ready.html

[The_Ghan]

Hi Dani,

Thanks for the latest update.  I love your carpentry skills.  I'll give you an "A+" for that.  However, I think the storage track position could be problematic if you have a derailment.  It's going to be really hard retrieving a consist the gets derailed over those back turn-outs.  I can only give you a "C" for positioning of the storage track ... 

I've learned that the best place for storage track is along the operator side of the layout.  In your case, I would have put it parallel and beneath your main station.  I'd set it back about 6" and hide it with a black curtain.

Cheers

The_Ghan

[keitaro]

mate you can come to aus and stay at my house anytime for the price of building my next layout's table 

agreed with The_Ghan though bad positioning.

having said that my plan is going to be something similar as i wanted to have a subway along the front making it impossible to have like Ghan said.

though theres always modifications you make make though to get better access.

good luck on the layour i look forward to seeing in it action one day

[The_Ghan]

Hey Keitaro,

I also have a subway along the front - 2 storey, so that there is a bit of height to cater for the angle that people might look at.  The best option in this case is to:

a. if your layout is up against the wall: put the storage yard and loading track below the subway;

b. as my layout will (eventually) become a 5.6m x 4.0m donut, I've put my storage tracks on the inside, where the operator would stand.  But later, when my square donut is complete, the back side of the donut (which will be up against a wall) will be only 560mm wide and will have several levels of storage yard beneath the scenery nicely hidden by the magical black curtain.

Cheers

The_Ghan

[Dani]

You are right in all what you say, well, not in the A+. Photos don't show all the mistakes.... xDDD

About the storage yard it's true that it would be better in a parallel position close to the operator's side, but sometimes it's needed to make some sacrifices to accomplish other requirements. This diagonal disposition was the only possibility I found to have storage tracks of 1,3 meters long. On the other hand, it's completely straight and has very smooth curves at the enter and exit with no needs of helix ramps. The access is not so easy, but the possibilities of derailments are lower, and from the bottom you can access to both sides of the tracks and replace the point motors easily.

Keitaro, don't make again this offer, or I'll take a plane next holidays!!! Better you could come to Barcelona and teach me for free staying, I have a huge barbecue and the weather is perfect.... and I need all your experience to continue!!!   
May be we could open an off topic for interchanges.....

I'll continue posting progress!!!

Dani.

[Martijn Meerts]

Hmmm.. Staying in Barcelona for free, with a huge barbecue and good weather.... Anything I can teach you as well? ;)

I already went to the US to visit some forum people, Barcelona is much closer *cough* 

[The_Ghan]

Dani,

You might want to consider cleaning that hard-to-reach track too!   

Cheers

The_Ghan

[SubwayHypes]

wow very nice looks promising...that underground layout looks cool you should put those concrete pillars and other things in there to make it look like a real subway yard...

[Dani]

I hadn't much time to advance in the layout, but I tested a micro-camera mounted on a low car, and the results are very good. It's a lighter spy camera I bought in e-bay for 14€:




Quality is not very good because I hadn't enough light, and you'll see non straight tracks because are not fixed yet, but this "lighter spy cam" is fantastic!!!:


<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/TbbcBb-4FF8" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/TbbcBb-4FF8</a>

[KenS]

That's really cool.  Great footage.  Now you just have to add sceney to all the hidden track. 

But why does your camera think it's 2007?

[Dani]

But why does your camera think it's 2007?

I just took it out from the box and tested....  I have to set up the date and time, but I couldn't wait to record a video.... 

[The_Ghan]

So cool Dani,

How does it work?  Does it record in the device?  Does it have a wireless transmitter?

I'd like to do something like this but I want it broadcasting the signal to my notebook, if I can.  Does anyone know what product might do this?

Cheers

The_Ghan

[Dani]

How does it work?  Does it record in the device?  Does it have a wireless transmitter?

No, it has a micro-SD inside and records on it in AVI format (720x480 HD) with sound, or JPG (1280x1024 Full HD) if you make photos.
With a long press on the "gas button" start/stop record. Short press makes photo.

After recording pull out the head of the lighter and a USB connector appears to connect directly to the computer and retrieve the files and charge.

I think it's impossible to embed more electronics like a wi-fi transmiter inside a lighter....

Cheers,
Dani

[cteno4]

well you can, a little wireless is about the same size, but the energy requirements are quite a bit more for the transmitter. camera/recording doesnt take much power so it run for 30-60 min on on a small battery back easily.

here is one tiny camera i have. the board is about 7.5mm x 7.5mm x 35mm, small enough to fit inside a train car. you need to get it power of 5-8vdc via batteries or dcc power (or rig a battery thats charged by dc power). i just got this a few weeks back and have not had a chance to test it out yet.

you can see the board for dani's cigarette lighter camera in this thread

http://www.jnsforum.com/index.php/topic,2105.0.html

along with some info about other little cameras.

cheers

jeff