My Layout :)

[serenityFan]

Hi all,

At Bernard's request (and also to get some advice and input), I am posting what I have on my layout so far.  ;D

I am still on the planning stages, not even a name yet, it will be N scale. Here is the drawing: (done on xtrkcad)


It basically draws inspiration from this layout from Noch:


The first stage will be laying out the track all flat on the baseboard (which is also flat), get the train running with simple dc wiring and I will think what to do next from there... that's why I am going to get Unitrack, because it is easy to pull apart and put together, and easy to modify the layout when the time comes to expand...   ;D

Other stuff:
-Baseboard had to be 60 cm wide. It has to be that small so it can sit on one side to the wall in my study room.
-It will have 2 mainlines
-No yard at this stage (nothing to put in the yard)
-Station will be on the upper section
-Not very prototypical, this is going to be my first layout, so I just want something not too complicated to run my train on  ;)

cheers,
Andy

[SONIC883]

Looks nice. I can imagine some older locos on it like 9600, C11, E10/4110, DF50, DF90 and/or ED7x on it

Which kind of track do you want to use?

[CaptOblivious]

Looks like a nice, simple layout that will be fun to watch trains on! I like it.

Two issues, however.
1) Maybe this doesn't bother you (it wouldn't bother me), but you probably won't be able to run shinkansen or other long-bodied trains on the inner loop. My Kato E4 series will traverse 243mm curves...85% of the time. The rest of the time it derails and makes a mess. Standard 20m cars shouldn't have any problems with it.

2) A serious problem: As a general rule, anytime you have a tight curve feed directly into a turnout, you'll get derailments. Trains running on the inner loop will pick those lower turnouts almost every time (read: constant derailment). Put a small section of straight track, at least the length of one bogie if not more, between the curves and the turnouts. It will shorten the runaround, but I think it's better than the alternative. You may have a similar problem with the outer loop and those first turnouts up top in the station, but the wider radius will be more forgiving. You'll just have to test, test, test.

[Bernard]

Andy - I really, really like this shelf layout. CaptO brings up a very good point about derailments on a curved turnout. Also since you are going to use Kato Unitrack, I don't know if they make curved turnouts.

Okay my one point. From your plan it looks like you are going to have a 4% grade to the upper level. That might be hard for some trains to pull a load up on. Would a 2% grade work for you?

Since this is your first layout how do you plan to make your grade up to the station level?
One easy solution is to use Woodlandscenics incline sets. They make them in different grades and are light-weight.
Here is a link to get an idea what they look like, they are made in 2%, 3% & 4% sets:
http://www.woodlandscenics.com/items.cfm/SubTerrainSystem

[SONIC883]

The transitions from turnouts to the curves looks smooth. Short locos and wagons (like WAMU 80000) should run good on it. Locos like the MicroACE DF50 or many KATO ones has a higher selfweight and a good tracktion so that the 4% are possible. 

But sure: Testing is the best way to find out

EDIT: S-Curves makes more problem. There you must put a small straight between the direction change.

[CaptOblivious]

S-curves are a problem, but to be honest, they haven't been so much of a problem for me. Different experiences, I suppose, which just underscore's SONIC's point that you really just need to lay out the track as you have it planned, and run lots and lots of trains...including on the planned grade.

Still, overall a good plan, and I look forward to seeing more of this layout!

[SONIC883]

The worst combination is this for S-Curves with Tomix S280 without a straight track

http://picasaweb.google.com/kpernau/MyModeltrains#5217771506037421170
MicroACE DD51 Double (Set) with the long TAKIs oder the Car Rack Set - that combinations derails 100%

So I decide that I dont build s-curves. That make the layout a little bit boring, but the trains run clear

[serenityFan]

Thanks for the input, everyone.
Now, where to start?

SONIC883: I am going to use unitrack. I love the ED74 that you have on display on Picasa.... have to put that in my wish list now ;)

Bernard: Yeah, I am aware of the incline set (never used them though). In xtrkcad I entered an elevation of 2 inches, and the program tells me I need 4% incline. I thought, sweet, woodland scenic already has the right incline set. I wonder if the incline set will be wide enough for both the inner and outer loop .....

CaptOblivious: I am also happy to run my longer trains on the outside loop only. Hopefully it will run ok on the 282 radius...

I am planning to buy the track in stages, the first stage will the 282 radius and I will try running my N700 around the curves. Any problems, I would have to go up to 282/315 radius, although that will mean the track will go over my baseboard edge by 5 cm.  :-\
So hopefully it will run ok. And then I will try the incline. And I will also take a look at the S curve .....   ;D

[SONIC883]

Maybe a ED75 is easyer to get

When you compare this with a ED73 or ED74 you will find only some small differences.

For your layout: More space is alway better. Have a look for a seperat plate on your shelf.

[Bernard]

Andy - the answer to your question, will the WS incline set take the 2 main lines and the answer is YES. If you look at my Bullet train layout I have posted here, all my inclines are WS. They will fit one HO scale track or 2 N scale tracks. They are made out of foam and are very easy to install onto wood or foam board with "Liquid Nails for Projects" which you can get at any hardward store. The incline set is a big time saver and is light weight.

I don't think you will have any problems with your trains making the 4% incline since you are running Kato. Before purchasing the 282/315 radius track to see if your N700 will make the curve, lets see if some members here have that radius & that train (or something similar) and see if they don't mind doing a test for you.

[CaptOblivious]

I don't have the N700, but I do have a Kato E4 (the cars of which should be right about the same length), and it handles Tomix FineTrack 280mm curves without problem. I expect the Kato 282mm curves will likewise be just fine.

[Bernard]

Andy - any progress on your layout? I've been thinking about your design and I really like it, it will be fun watching trains run on it.

[CaptOblivious]

Seconded, more news, please! I was thinking about your layout the other day while perusing the Noch catalog...

[serenityFan]

Hi guys.... it took a while to get all the tracks that I wanted, however your request for update could not have been better timed. The last pieces of unitrack that I need have just arrived by mail yesterday.

So far, while waiting for the track pieces, I have prepared the table and base for the layout. Also I prepared a blog to record all my progress.
The blog is still half finish, but it does have some more pics of the base. You can have a look here:

http://welcometoserenityvalley.blogspot.com/

Just now, I put the track together and this is what it looks like now  ;D



As you can see, it is still all flat now. Already bought some ws incliner that I will try on the weekend.

[Martijn Meerts]

Looking good ;)

Had a quick read through your blog as well, I actually think the whole "viewing height" thing is personal preference. I always enjoy watching a model layout from a bit higher up and get a more birds-eye view of the whole thing. I really don't like the modular layouts that have the model 1.5 meter above the floor, makes no sense  ::)


Seems model train fanatics have a thing with cats too, even though they're a model trains worst nightmare what with all the fur all over the place.. (Yes, I have 2 of them running around the house as well ;))

[Bernard]

Andy - you have a really nice start and it seems like everything is running with no problems.
First rule of model RR, it's your layout have fun!
So with that said, as Martijn pointed out, viewing line of site is a personal preference but what is more important to me is that everything is level and it seems like the 3 tables you're using are just that.
One suggestion, when you put down the "chipped board" how about gluing down a piece of insulation foam on top of the board. The foam comes in different depths from 1/2", 1", or 2".
Why I suggest this? Because when you start putting down your layout design, you might want to make other elements to the layout like a pond, a hill, etc. It will be very easy to carve into the foam to make this element in the future. (Plus the circular elevation on the left side where you have your yard can be easily made by cutting the foam with a bread knife into that circle.)

Also are you going to make the layout in 3 sections or join them together?

Oh, and as far as the height, your cats will love that, we have 4 and so far only Willow likes sneaking into the layout room to watch the long mice running. It's like Catzilla attacking Tokyo.

[CaptOblivious]

Andy:

Great start, can't wait to see more!

All: Seriously, people, cats? Really? How do your models survive? (Full disclosure: I'm severely allergic to cats, so I'm naturally biased against them...)

[Martijn Meerts]

Andy:

Great start, can't wait to see more!

All: Seriously, people, cats? Really? How do your models survive? (Full disclosure: I'm severely allergic to cats, so I'm naturally biased against them...)

Well, in my case, I don't run the trains (yet), although the few I have run once in a while way back when I first got started are filled with cat and need a good cleaning.

I love cats, but once I move I don't think I'll get any more of them. I think I'll go for something like a parrot or 2, or some tropical fish ;)

[alpineaustralia]

I must be the odd one out - I am not keen on cats.
Bernard's correct - there is no right and wrong about this hobby.
Its a great layout if you have fun with it.

[serenityFan]

So far, CaptOblivious and alpine are nay for cats, where as everyone else seems like yay for cats   ;D

Anyway, I have tried looking for those pink or blue foam (insulation foam?) however I can't find anything on a couple of visits to different local hardware stores. When I ask for insulation foam, I have been getting blank stares. Maybe here in Melbourne, they just don't use these kind of foam for insulation. 

The next best thing that I saw a while ago was some normal styrofoam (the messy breaking up kind of styrofoam) sheets at Clark Rubber (a rubber shop, sells all things rubber) however if I remember correctly, they were not cheap.

Among others, next on the agenda is somehow joining the 3 sections more permanently together (at the moment thay are still just sitting loosely on top of the tables).

Also I stopped by at the craft shop earlier today to buy some sewing pins, as suggested on another thread in this forum; time to check those inclines. Very helpful and thanks for the input on viewing heights as well  ;D

[Bernard]

Andy - Here are some photos of the early stages of my layout.
The 1st photo show a side view of the green (it's usually blue or pink but some how I got green) insulation foam board. It usually comes in 4'x8' sheets and very light.
I attached the foam board to the plywood table top and in some of the photo in yellow marker I made a grid of 1' square boxes. This was to transfer my layout plan onto the foam.

In the next 2 photos you can see how I pinned down the WS inclines (I use long quilting pins) to the foam and add the cord strips for the flex track I latter used.

And the last photo show that by using the foam board I latter carved out a river which was easy because all I did was trace out a river and carve down to the original plywood top.
A building supply company like Home Depot or Lowes carries the insulation foam and it's not very expensive. You can even save the leftover pieces to make hills, walls or mountains.
Hope this helps.
And as I'm typing this, my cat Emily is in her favorite spot, lying on my shoulders fast asleep.

[CaptOblivious]

Among others, next on the agenda is somehow joining the 3 sections more permanently together (at the moment thay are still just sitting loosely on top of the tables).

You might consider something less than permanent, so you can port your layout around. I'm going to use velcro (hook-and-loop) straps on the sides to hold the two halves of mine together.

[bill937ca]

The next best thing that I saw a while ago was some normal styrofoam (the messy breaking up kind of styrofoam) sheets at Clark Rubber (a rubber shop, sells all things rubber) however if I remember correctly, they were not cheap.

Woodland Scenics offers a line of Styrofoam sheets for modeling. But as you are in Australia it probably won't be cheap.

Double check your glues when working with foam.  Some can eat at the foam.

[CaptOblivious]

Since you already have a wooden base, an additional insulation foam base may be overkill; you could just glue the risers directly to what you have. If you use a minimum 1/2" or 1" riser for all the tracks, you can still make ponds and valleys below the level of the tracks. This is in fact the method that Woodland Scenics recommends, I think.

[serenityFan]

Latest update, after testing different things, I have settled to using risers for all the track. Here is what the layout looks like now ...

More pics are on my blog (http://welcometoserenityvalley.blogspot.com/)

[Bernard]

I enjoyed reading your blog and I like the changes from your original design. I see you've added a bridge and a tunnel, are you planning on having a road or a river on the layout?
Do you know what you plan to use to cover the ribs on the risers and inclines? I used sheets of hydrocal cloth which I got from WS and also a medical supply company (used in making casts) If you are going to use hydrocal sheets, do this before you affix the Unitrack to the risers and wear gloves, hydrocal is messy.

You layout is really coming along nicely! ;)

[serenityFan]

Thanks Bernard. Yeah, the bridge is another impulse buy, that what happens when you go to the actual shop. It was decided at the shop to have a bridge and incorporated into the layout afterwards   ;D

And I am planning a road going under the bridge, and as I was exercising on the treadmill this morning, I thought I would go ambitious and also add tram tracks along the road. I think it will fit, I'm trying to work out some drawings now  ;)

For sceneries, at the moment I am leaning toward hydrocal sheets.

Research shows WS has plester cloths, which according to the instrustions you just dip in water and apply on surface. No mixing involved. How is this compared to the ones where you mix yourself, and dip your own paper towels in for the surface?

[Martijn Meerts]

Plaster cloth is excellent to work with, but it only forms a base of the mountain. It's too rough to get a mountain that looks like well, a mountian ;)

I generally use chicken wire to form a sturdy base and the overal form (I know, I know... I'm old-skool ;)), plaster cloth on top of that because it holds onto the chicken wire real well, possibly add some rock castings where I feel they could be useful, and then seal it all with lightweight hydrocal. I add extra, smaller details with the hydrocal, and then use some sculpters tools to add tiny details and texture to the thing before painting.

I recently went on a rockface watching trip, checking out the detailing in the bases of the smaller rock faces here in Norway, took some pictures and some close-ups, and I noticed that you really only need to add model some fairly rough lines, most of the detailing can be done with paint.

[bill937ca]

If you are going for a really Japanese scene there will not be a lot of mountain showing.  Japanese mountains are usually covered with masses of green in which you cannot distinguish individual trees.
Here's an example:

http://www.tetsu-cafe.com/nippou/up_images/01160010022nihonkai.jpg

Attempts to clear cut Japanese mountains have resulted in landslides and floods because of the very steep slopes.  So they are just left alone.

[CaptOblivious]

For the very reasons Bill states, My wife and I are not going through all that trouble that Martijn does with Shogatsu. We're stopping at the plaster cloth, with maybe a little sanding to smooth really rough parts out. Then we're going to paint the hills, and then cover the mountains with Woodland Scenics clump foliage to simulate dense forest.

[Bernard]

Bill - Thanks for that link on mountains! You just saved me a fortune and a lot of time making trees! What do you guys recommend in getting the effect from the link Bill posted?

[Martijn Meerts]

Depends a bit on what you model. A tunnel entrance for example will show some man-made "naked mountain" so to speak. Some mountains might also have clearings where a village is/was located, things like that.

The way I described above is what I'm doing for my diorama that has a tunnel entrance, for larger, prototypical mountain ranges I wouldn't add hydrocal to smoothen the thing out. That said, my first several modules (the ones based on Ghibli movies) have non-Japanese mountains and actually show a lot of the rock surface ;)

[bill937ca]

Bill - Thanks for that link on mountains! You just saved me a fortune and a lot of time making trees! What do you guys recommend in getting the effect from the link Bill posted?

Working on top of plaster cloth, I started with a muddy brown coat of WS Earth Undercoat which I covered with WS Green Blended Turf which gives a good average green color.  I have just purchased Light Green Clump-Foliage  which I plan to add to the mountain soon.  I haven't got an adequate photo available.

Scenes in Japan are often comprised mainly of different shades of green.  Here's some examples:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/teamtea/1059420872/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/teamtea/1058568561/

[bill937ca]

Depends a bit on what you model. A tunnel entrance for example will show some man-made "naked mountain" so to speak. Some mountains might also have clearings where a village is/was located, things like that.

The way I described above is what I'm doing for my diorama that has a tunnel entrance, for larger, prototypical mountain ranges I wouldn't add hydrocal to smoothen the thing out. That said, my first several modules (the ones based on Ghibli modules) have non-Japanese mountains and actually show a lot of the rock surface ;)

That would make a good European mountain but not a Japanese mountain.  In many cases all you will see is green, brown ballast and the tunnel portal itself. There is little if any exposed stone at a tunnel portal.

Tree coverage in Japan is the highest in the world at 66.8% of land coverage.

http://web-japan.org/nipponia/nipponia24/en/feature/feature01.html

http://web-japan.org/nipponia/nipponia24/en/feature/feature02.html

Here's some older tunnel portal photos from Japan.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/hiromori2/329830793/in/set-72157600208816961/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/hiromori2/329833037/in/set-72157600208816961/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/hiromori2/324647744/in/set-72157594580017191/

Here's a couple of short videos with mountain scenes.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/wCKq6eGBLyQ" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/wCKq6eGBLyQ</a>

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/jsNs8ORNaEo" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/jsNs8ORNaEo</a>

It all depends on the type of effect you want.  I have noticed many Japanese layouts lean heavily tones of green and brown and little else.

[Martijn Meerts]

Bill, I'm not doing everything prototypically though. Those Studio Ghibli modules I mentioned for example are based on various movies by Studio Ghibli (more specifically Hayao Miyazaki's movies). In Kaze no Tani no Naushika for example, there are some valleys where you can see the rock surface itself. In Mononoke Hime, they're clearing a lot of the forest, so obviously there'll be quite a bit of visible mountain there as well.

Newly installed tunnel portals will generally also show the rock surface for a perdiod of time at least. Pretty much all tunnel entrances need some work to even out the surround area, but eventually they'll get covered by various bushes again.


Anyway, I don't really want everything to be 100% prototypical, it would impose far too many limits for my taste, not to mention that you won't be able to model people walking on the platforms and getting on and off trains anytime soon =)

[SubwayHypes]

I like the risers!  What are those made of?  Did you just cut them from a big foam block? 

i would just hit them with some RUstoleum "textured" spray paint to give them a cement look.

[bill937ca]

WS risers and inclines are made of styrofoam, or more specifically expanded polystryene.  Solvent based glues and paints can eat some types of foam so you might want to check before using rustoleum paint.

[serenityFan]

I like the risers!  What are those made of?  Did you just cut them from a big foam block? 

i would just hit them with some RUstoleum "textured" spray paint to give them a cement look.

The risers with ribs are WS, as for the solid ones on the main straight, I did cut them from a big foam sheet. The main thing is the foam sheet was already 2 inches tall like the WS risers, so I just need to cut them to the required width.

So for mountain covered with trees, you don't need to make trees but simply use folliages?
How about the edges of the forest, or where the forest meets the road, would you be able to see some trees there?

[CaptOblivious]

I like the risers!  What are those made of?  Did you just cut them from a big foam block? 

i would just hit them with some RUstoleum "textured" spray paint to give them a cement look.

The risers with ribs are WS, as for the solid ones on the main straight, I did cut them from a big foam sheet. The main thing is the foam sheet was already 2 inches tall like the WS risers, so I just need to cut them to the required width.

So for mountain covered with trees, you don't need to make trees but simply use folliages?
How about the edges of the forest, or where the forest meets the road, would you be able to see some trees there?

It's all up to you. I'm flocking a portion of my layout as I type this to photograph and post to this thread, so you can see how just straight "clump foliage" works. I won't be doing anything fancy in the foreground.

[Martijn Meerts]

Another option would be to use the cheaper trees that come in sets of 50 or 100 or something, although I think that only really works well for a pine forest. For the foreground you get get several more detailed trees and place them in strategic places. Spots of the layout that draw the attention of the viewer.. Around tunnel entrances, bridges, lakes etc.

[CaptOblivious]

Here is what the cheap and easy route yields, for what it's worth.

[bill937ca]

Here is what the cheap and easy route yields, for what it's worth.

Looks good, Captain!

[serenityFan]

Here is what the cheap and easy route yields, for what it's worth.

Looks good, Captain!

I second that ... cheap, easy and looking great  ;D

[serenityFan]

Latest update ... I was originally undecided whether or not to procede without a detailed plan for the scenery, however I finally decided to move ahead and just decide things on the go.

I took the left most section of my layout and started working on the landscape. You should be able to see the main lines disappearing into the tunnel on the right hand side. The 'other' risers/incliner set which goes accross the middle of the picture is for the tram line, which wasn't on any of the last pics you've seen.

I followed the newspaper scrunches method and this is how far I got today. 2nd photo shows the back of the layout with large openings so I can reach inside the tunnel.

[Bernard]

This is looking fantastic! I like that you are making it in sections which will come in handy latter.
A couple of questions:
1) I used flex track in my layout and I don't know if it's the same for Unitrack, but I had to lay down the flex track first before I covered it up in my mountain. How do you lay down the Unitrack in your mountain?

2) I see there is one area in the first photo where you have a crossover with 2 elevated WS inclines. (I'm writing this because I really can't see the angle in the photo very well and I don't want you to have any problems when you lay down the track)
Have you test fitted it with one train on a track on the bottom section and having the bridge in place on the top section just to make sure you have enough clearance? This was a problem I had in one of my earlier designs and found the flaw when I tested fitted it. All my trains have enough clearance expect an Mintrix "Old Timer" steam engine, which is fine because what would that train be doing on a hi-speed main line.

Also what material did you use for your sides? The sides came out extremely well.
I really look forward to seeing more of this layout, great job!!

[CaptOblivious]

Lookin' good!! ;D  It's all down hill from here (ba-da-bum *ching*): cutting those profiles is the hard tedious part. The plaster cloth and the rest is just fun.

[serenityFan]

To be honest, I am not sure how I'm going to lay down tracks inside the mountain ... Maybe I can just lay the unitrack without any glue, just put it loosely on the layout.

On the secondary line (the tram line) however, it's a different story because I plan to use flextrack there.
So if you lay the flextrack first, how do you cover the sections of the riser below the flextrack which have holes?
I have sort of tested the crossover, however it is going to be close. I would probably end up with a very thin bridge over that section  ;D

Materials: The side-board and back-board are 3mm foam core.

And as for the plester cloth fun: hehe, I still have to test it again before going to the plester cloth part. Is it actually better or worst to have a lot of the tape over the newspaper? my beautiful wife commented that my mountain looked better before I put all that tape on them  because all the tape made it looked flat.

To do the plester cloth, you just cut a smallish sized patch, dip it in water and put it over the taped-newpaper-mountain. is that correct?

[bill937ca]

To do the plester cloth, you just cut a smallish sized patch, dip it in water and put it over the taped-newpaper-mountain. is that correct?

Yes, that is correct.

[CaptOblivious]

To do the plester cloth, you just cut a smallish sized patch, dip it in water and put it over the taped-newpaper-mountain. is that correct?

Yes, that is correct.

Place it bumpy-side-up, and be sure to smooth the plaster around to fill in gaps and holes in the cloth. Also, I find more tape better than less tape, generally, but that's just me.

[serenityFan]

Yes, i thought more tape would give you a smoother area ... anyways I've put the layout back together for some test run and everything seems to be running okay. I've also updated my blog with some more pics ...