My project begins

[keitaro]

Not sure what to call my layout yet but it has begun.

I have assemble the table after a grueling 6 hours and laid the styrene.

Assembled the basic of the track to get a feel for it and while it was connected ran my trains haha.

They are happy to have a table of their own.

Would post pics but the table is blocking the pc and my iPhone can't upload pics.

Stay tuned as I will post soon





EDIT **** ok so i finished playing with my trains so heres the pics

because i have demo version i could not fit the pla into one file so everything is just as first pic except the parking area for trains

btw thats my kiha 110 with extra motor car. i'm impressed with how quiet it is and how smooth it runs i had it on only 10 and it started moving without jittering

[Hobby Dreamer]

Great start!!  Always fun to run the trains the first time..

Keep us informed

Cheers
Rick

[Bernard]

That actually went quickly and you're off to a great start.....now the fun begins!

[keitaro]

fun yes maybe 

no pictures tonight.

However i have started to make the first mountain i have created the slopes and places the foundation to hold the track up. i also have some foam cut to shape to make the L shape of the mountain.

I then tested the trains and ran into a few issues.

1. Thomas cannot go up grades of 1.5 - 2 % there abouts. Even at 1.5 % he has a bunch of trouble.

I tested and confirmed this by lowering the slope than calculating the grade.

2. My kiha 110 with 2 motor cars and 1 non motor car seems to love rubbing on points and the little door between cars comes of as a result of rubbing and derailing on points.

To over come this I have placed 72.5mm track infront of any points that has a slight slope or corner right before hitting the point which means it has made less space between the edge of my board and track.
Which was undesireable butIi can't figure out why it's happening. It has same clearance as all my other trains ...

Tommorow I will begin more of the tunnel i'm hoping to have tunnel and mountain done by 2 weeks from now.

Also the station is a bit tight I was thinking of sanding back the edge 2 or 3 mm so the trains don't rub

[Lawrence]

Does 'Thomas' have traction tyres fitted, if not might be worth getting a couple or they might just need a good clean.

Is it possible to move the station at all, if the trains are catching the platform it will certainly damage the train paintwork, but trying to sand down a platform edge and keep it level all the way along will be difficult, so consider moving it or the track leading to it.

Cant help with the 110 really, only thing I could suggest is checking the BTB on each axle to ensure you have the right clearances, I don't have the info but someone on here will no doubt know the right BTB measurements or you could compare them with another loco that passes through okay

[Bernard]

2% grade really isn't steep at all. Lawrence has a good suggestion about traction tires but if you can't find any a lot of modelers use "Bullfrog Snot" (great name for a product... )
Here is some info about it: http://www.modeltrainstuff.com/Bullfrog-Snot-Traction-Tires-1oz-Jar-p/bfs-bfs.htm

As for the station being tight correct it now, just remember you might increase your roster in the future some larger trains will have trouble with the station.

[brill27mcb]

It's interesting that Thomas can't handle the grade. Tomix offers a pre-shaped foam base (#8018) to make a very small, twice-around, over-and-under layout specifically for Thomas. At this small size, the grades are not long and gradual to get up to the height of the overpass track -- only a loop of 280 mm radius curves!

Rich K.

[keitaro]

It's interesting that Thomas can't handle the grade. Tomix offers a pre-shaped foam base (#8018) to make a very small, twice-around, over-and-under layout specifically for Thomas. At this small size, the grades are not long and gradual to get up to the height of the overpass track -- only a loop of 280 mm radius curves!

Rich K.

Hmm I have Thomas going up 317-45 from 0cm to 5cm high over 2 pieces. He gets half way and his wheels start sliding. I took the cars of him Clarence and annabel but same issue. Wheels are spotless and he's brand new been used only 2 or 3 times.

Not sure how traction wheels will go on Thomas would look a little odd taking off his 3 blue wheels. Having said that maybe I should buy James or Percy so they can work together

[keitaro]

Hi,

I can't provide picture right now as at work but I did manage to narrow it down to the unmotored car on this car there is a skinny door connections between the 2 cars. Also the other cars have a fatter connection between cars on opposite side.

However the one with the skinny door connection seems to be catching some how I ran it at slowest speed and watched it.

I don't even notice it catch but randomly it pops of the track with the wheels beneath that. Also the thin door connection becomes loose as if it rubbed.
Strangest thing I ran it just the two motor cars and works fine. So it's the passenger car causing the issue.

[Lawrence]

Hi,

I can't provide picture right now as at work but I did manage to narrow it down to the unmotored car on this car there is a skinny door connections between the 2 cars. Also the other cars have a fatter connection between cars on opposite side.

However the one with the skinny door connection seems to be catching some how I ran it at slowest speed and watched it.

I don't even notice it catch but randomly it pops of the track with the wheels beneath that. Also the thin door connection becomes loose as if it rubbed.
Strangest thing I ran it just the two motor cars and works fine. So it's the passenger car causing the issue.

Would definitely check the BTB's on the passenger car if that's the case, with motorised units the axles tend to be more robust than that of a 'dummy'  so it could be that one of the axles is warped or a wheel has moved in.

Can I ask how long a 317-45 is? to climb 5cm you would really need a run, as a minimum, of 150cm, but longer if possible and definitely longer if on a curve.

Traction tyres don't involve changing the wheels, these are tiny little rubber bands that you fit on the drive wheels (not the pickup wheels) to give more grip, you may have to disconnect the drive rod to get them fitted.

Hope all this makes sense and helps a bit

[keitaro]

Hi,

I can't provide picture right now as at work but I did manage to narrow it down to the unmotored car on this car there is a skinny door connections between the 2 cars. Also the other cars have a fatter connection between cars on opposite side.

However the one with the skinny door connection seems to be catching some how I ran it at slowest speed and watched it.

I don't even notice it catch but randomly it pops of the track with the wheels beneath that. Also the thin door connection becomes loose as if it rubbed.
Strangest thing I ran it just the two motor cars and works fine. So it's the passenger car causing the issue.

Would definitely check the BTB's on the passenger car if that's the case, with motorised units the axles tend to be more robust than that of a 'dummy'  so it could be that one of the axles is warped or a wheel has moved in.

Can I ask how long a 317-45 is? to climb 5cm you would really need a run, as a minimum, of 150cm, but longer if possible and definitely longer if on a curve.

Traction tyres don't involve changing the wheels, these are tiny little rubber bands that you fit on the drive wheels (not the pickup wheels) to give more grip, you may have to disconnect the drive rod to get them fitted.

Hope all this makes sense and helps a bit

Hmm. The 317 is 317 mm I guess the slope involves 2 of these and a 140mm straight. I could try lengthen the incline but theres a point connecting to the 140 wold that have issues on slopes?

[CaptOblivious]

A section of 317-45 track is 45º of 317mm radius curve. So, the total circumferential length of one segment, as the train runs, is a shade under 249mm.

Keitaro, I'm looking at my キハ1110 right now. Mine is just the one-car motorized set (Kato part no. 6043). It has a diaphragm on one end only, and it's not in any way connected to the coupler, just the end of the car. The other end has only molded-on detail. So I won't be able to replicate your problem with my model, I don't think.

[keitaro]

Ok fair enough.
Yeah that part is getting pushed of which makes me think the coupler is flicking up and hitting it out of place.

when i get home i will try checking if there is any brass bits blocking it.

One thing i did notice is the coupler was quite hard to move so your pm sounds like it could be that issue.

[Lawrence]

Sorry I have never used the Kato track so have no idea what the codes meant.

Okay so 2 x 317 + 140 is 774 mm, or 77 cm, you are raising the track 5 cm in that distance giving a ratio of about 1:15, the minimum you should be aiming for is 1:30 and 1:40 on curved gradients.  If I understand correctly this is on a curve, if so to raise from ground level (0) to 5 cm you need a 2 meter [/u]run, if on the straight 150cm.

For big heavy locos or double headed trains you can get away with 1:25 but it doesn't look so great, but can still be done and hidden with scenics 

[keitaro]

Thing is though all other trains handle it with out an issue. just thomas. I think it may have something to do with how light he is. He feels as light or lighter than a standard un-motored passenger car. I guess he has less grip on track due to less weight pushing him down.

I know the slope has nothing to do with the 110 kiha though as he derailed 3 times at the double track crossover track. and it's completely flat.

Tonight i will test making the slope longer extending onto the 2 point switch at the bottom. I'll have to carve some foam to make it as smooth as possible

[Martijn Meerts]

Even with traction tires, Thomas might have problems getting up. Also, you'll end up with 2 less wheels for Thomas to get power from if you add traction tires. Actually, you're going to have to use the already mentioned bullfrog snot, because there's no groove in the wheels for the traction tire.

Most newer trains should be handle slopes of 4%, many of the new Kato sets mention 4% in the manual, including the 16 car sets. The recently re-released GS-4 morning daylight steam locomotive was actually designed to be able to pull the entire 18-car Morning Daylight up a 4% slope.

[keitaro]

my 5 car 10-473 e231 Suburban type 5 car bought in 2005 runs no problems up the hill. I really think it's the light weight not making traction on tracks enough because thomas is a really fast engine. runs faster than the kiha at 50% on the controller.

Update if i put him at 70% he kinda slides up the hill from the speed he has going on hahahaha however it's a very unrealistic speed and probably damaging him doing it all the time 

do you guys think adding a percy or james would get it up all right?i was going to buy one of them for my son to play with the trains

[KenS]

If there's space inside or underneath, consider adding weight to Thomas to improve its traction.  However, most weight sold for model trains is made from lead, which is really unsuitable for a train a child might play with.  There are alternatives, although they can be hard to find.  See this thread for some ideas.

[Lawrence]

my 5 car 10-473 e231 Suburban type 5 car bought in 2005 runs no problems up the hill. I really think it's the light weight not making traction on tracks enough because thomas is a really fast engine. runs faster than the kiha at 50% on the controller.

Update if i put him at 70% he kinda slides up the hill from the speed he has going on hahahaha however it's a very unrealistic speed and probably damaging him doing it all the time 

do you guys think adding a percy or james would get it up all right?i was going to buy one of them for my son to play with the trains

I think you may have fit the nail on the head there, the Thomas train is possibly more of a toy than a model and is possibly less accurate in terms of weight and gearing (you could go down the line of re gearing it if you wanted to).  Martijn makes a good point about the lack of grooves in the wheels too, that would mean having to make your own grooves, so trying to add a bit of weight might be your simplest solution, and if you can get it inside where your son cant reach it then the material shouldn't be an issue.

Double heading with Percy or James should also help and it would give you an excuse to buy them for yourself, sorry, I mean your son  .

The reason I mentioned the gradient ratios that I did is that these seem to be what everyone uses as a modelling standard and being a bit old school I was using ratios instead of %, so your current set up worked out about 1:15 which is roughly 6.5%  my understanding of the minimum gradient at 1:30 is around 3.3% and 1:40 (for curved gradients) about 2.5%.  Having said that, longer is better, apparently

[keitaro]

Strangest thing I lowered to 4.5cm now he runs fine even at a crawl... Funny how half a cm can make all the difference 

So I'll keep it at that. Making some progress today got the shape finished just need some chicken wire now. Will buy tommorow after work.

I left a large square hole on the back of mountain for access will build a little cover for that later.

So much tiny bits of foam everywhere I ever have bad dandruff or it's snowing in my pc room 

[Bernard]

So much tiny bits of foam everywhere I ever have bad dandruff or it's snowing in my pc room 

As I am carving away the foam I have a small hand held vacuum cleaner running....the carving & sanding method is messy but the end results are worth it.

[Lawrence]

Funny how half a cm can make all the difference 

That's what my wife says too 

[westfalen]

Strangest thing I lowered to 4.5cm now he runs fine even at a crawl... Funny how half a cm can make all the difference 

So I'll keep it at that. Making some progress today got the shape finished just need some chicken wire now. Will buy tommorow after work.

I left a large square hole on the back of mountain for access will build a little cover for that later.

So much tiny bits of foam everywhere I ever have bad dandruff or it's snowing in my pc room 

You've discovered a good reason for running a layout to death before getting stuck into the scenery, it's a lot easier to make any changes that only become apparent when you run trains.

[keitaro]

yes i ran it to death now with all trains i have even those i won't be running on it.


Now to sort out my station issue.

The issue is with the station i have it planted right infront of the of the double crossover so i can't make a larger gap between track.

I will have to do some filing of the edges, probably tale 1 mm of each side to make 2mm un wanted but i will have to as i have no where else to put the station to fit in 3 cars

[Lawrence]

Any chance you could post some pictures, it might help someone come up with a brilliant idea

[keitaro]

will do tonight.

i just finished wiring the mesh on the 1st mountain. I have not done the detail for the mountain at the portals however as they are still in the mail some where.

[keitaro]

A few more pictures to add did a bit of paper and gluing today hah!

It took longer than expected.

Pics attached

Started other mountain basics while was waitng for it do dry.

I have the foam cut for the tunel portal however since I am still waitng on delivery I have not attahed that yet.

[Bernard]

keitaro - Nice start on the mountains, it's coming together quickly. One suggestion....on the 2nd photo where you have the piers on an incline, you might want to make the access hole longer. If the train derails in between the entrance/bridge and the where you have the access hole now, it might be difficult to retrieve.

[disturbman]

Last picture... I'm not sure it's a very good idea to have that bowl full of something a bit liquidy and a train a few centimers away. ;)

[keitaro]

Thanks Bernard - yeah I'm going to up size that hole hahaha. Just getting the basic shape I'm stuck on that stage till my package arrives from hw. I have to place a right point where the derailed is before I can go even thurther in construction.

Tonight or tommorow night I will apply plaster to the other mountain.

Disturbman -

I know the 110 is a dare devil    he was not there during gluing just took off tracks while I adjusted some stuff

[Lawrence]

In the second picture there is a brown section on the track leading to the gradient, not being familiar with kato track can you tell me what it is, is it a crossing of some sort? can it be removed at all because to give you a really smooth climb I would think you would want to start the climb just after the curve before the brown thingy 

The mountain in the corner that you have covered with the property pages  will you fill out the trackside sides into a slope or are you having them as a bare rock face.

Also, just coz I like pictures, can you get an overall shot and indicate where your problem with the station is

[keitaro]

Hi Lawrence.

That is a tomix rerailer 140mm piece. I have it there temporarily till my electric right turnout point comes so I can make the extra turn out track below like in the last picture.

the brown thingy has a 70 mm piece after it then onto the 314-45 curves, the slope starts at the 70 mm so the cars are level when hitting the point to stop / minimise derails.

I was going to have that as a rock face and then slope up onto forrest up top with some small bushes growing on the rocks.

The left mountain will slope down as all forrest and the tunnel portals (both sides) will slope down on the edge of the board to make it look as if it has been cut into with machinery to make the tunnell.

I totally forgot to post up the station part as I did take a shot will tonight if I get a chance.

once the mountains are finished the fun will begin with making the town :D
I already have some old japanese farms and a few old style shops ready to go :D

I was thinking of making a basic small town.

A rice farm up top next to mountain with some fruit trees besides it.

And maybe small school and a base ball field with a few more modern looking house and shop etc.

[Lawrence]

Okay, understand now, should be fine, just a case of making it as smooth as poss really.  Reckon that big rock face on the corner will look great like a big cut through the mountain 

The rest of your plans sound really exciting, especially the baseball ground, never considered that, forgot baseball is such a big thing in Japan.

There is a building Claude Dreyfuss has on his layout which I think can be used as a school he sent me the link to a UK supplier http://www.kato-unitrack.co.uk/kato-unitrack-23-310-industrial-building-kit-1604-0.html however I think it would be well suited to conversion as a semi rural school as you plan, baseball park out back, maybe a running track    sorry getting carried away now, I'll let you finish the track work first 

[keitaro]

OK so I did some plastering pics attached plus my station area dilema. i really thinkg to shave off a 1 mm on each side.

I will have wood planks crossing the track as my crappy paint job will show haha

[disturbman]

Or just don't use an island platform but two platforms, one on each side.

[Kumo]

If you want to cross the tracks at the station, you better use this platform: http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10040328
And you can combine it with this station, it will make a nice "on tracks" crossing. http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10009822

I'm pretty sure they are made to go together but I only own the platform.

[keitaro]

i would do that but that will destroy my freight train yard idea... i really only need 2mm down either way i'll scratch it down and see how it looks then decide

[keitaro]

Did paper mâché of 2nd mountain tonight.

No pictures as it's 41 degrees up here and almost died. Maybe tommorow I will plaster that side. If I have time..

edit**
thinking of ordering these
http://www.hwjapan.com/sh/GMX48050.aspx
http://www.hwjapan.com/sh/PRO820581.aspx
http://www.hwjapan.com/sh/PRO99628.aspx

[Lawrence]

I'm with disturbman on this one, platforms either side with a footbridge, cant imagine there being an island that narrow, and how would your footbridge fit on to it?

[keitaro]

i was going to have a wooden walk path over the tracks. thos stations are very wide though... i have one already for else where but yeah.

[keitaro]

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/tWvkIfUi6oA" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/tWvkIfUi6oA</a>

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/Zcy-KM9ZKIg" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/Zcy-KM9ZKIg</a>

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/wT4mfkTwBAE" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/wT4mfkTwBAE</a>

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/1LENPGaE-8U" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/1LENPGaE-8U</a>

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/Es1t6fzzQSY" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/Es1t6fzzQSY</a>

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/caauXMVUUDw" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/caauXMVUUDw</a>

more vids enjoy

[KenS]

I like the bridge.

[Bernard]

You are already up and running! Are you still having problems with other trains hitting the station platform? I ask this because Thomas is a short train.
On suggestion, on the far station platform in the video, could you move just a bit off the curve, I think trains will stop better on a straight away.
It's coming together nicely, how are the kids liking it?

[keitaro]

He loves it. Woke me up at 7am saying train train and grabbing my hand and trying to pull me there.

His favourites of course are Thomas and the tsubame 800.

With the station I havnt decided yet but I will try taking a mm off then running them

I will post later a video of all trains. I ran them all at really high speeds to test for derails not a single one then I left running at very low speed and still none.

I'm happy with the results so far

[CaptOblivious]

None of the Tomix platforms are narrow enough to fit between the standard track spacing (i.e. the spacing between the parallel tracks on the double-crossover). You could trim them down, but you need to trim the stuff at the base of the platform, as well as the platform itself. Sounds rather tedious, frankly. Better, you might consider cutting the platforms in half lengthwise, shaving out some of the middle, and reattaching: It would at least preserve the details along the edges?

Is there no where else to put the double crossover? Otherwise, I'd also be in favor of side platforms. If you absolutely must have an island platform, perhaps you could make one or more of the new models by Cosmic? They are platforms designed for the Bandai B-Train Shorties, and some of them are islands made to fit in standard Tomix track spacing. But they might have a bit too much of the "super-deformed" look to them for your tastes.

http://www.1999.co.jp/search_e.asp?Typ1_c=104&scope=1&scope2=0&itkey=shorty+platform

Also, TomyTec makes curved side platforms to fit the inside of 280mm radius and the outside of 317mm radius curves, if you could move your station to one side or the other?
http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10108792
http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10108790

[keitaro]

Hmm I just had an idea. Perhaps 2 side platform connected together between the 2 bottom tracks one side for freight and other side for passengers

[bill937ca]

Here is a track plan that will accommodate a shorten version of the Tomix 4009 platform set (the two end pieces and the covered section) and create a small station.

http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10009827

There also is a small Tomytec station and platform set which was recently reissued. Its short and suitable for one or two car trains on secondary lines.

http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10129152

[keitaro]

been sanding the mountain to smooth it.

btw i posted more vids up a few of all trains running

now to prep some trees grass.

[Bernard]

been sanding the mountain to smooth it.

btw i posted more vids up a few of all trains running

now to prep some trees grass.

Where did you post the videos? Also post them in your thread, it shows the stages in which your layout is progressing.

[keitaro]

bernard i posted them in post number 40 up a few from yours. as for pics of the sanding will do later as my iphone doesn't let me upload and not at pc