Noisy E531 - Kato

[spacecadet]

I finally actually got my E531 Joban line basic + A set yesterday (I know, I've been talking in other threads like I've had it for a while, but I'd paid for it last month so I considered myself an "owner" since then).  Been running it yesterday and today.

It seems quite loud.  Is this normal?  It's not ridiculous, but it's noticeably louder than my 0 series shinkansen, which is a much older model.  If I crank the speed up to unrealistic levels, then it really is loud.  If I keep it prototypical, it's acceptable but still not "quiet".  I know other people here have this model so I'm just wondering what your experiences are.

Otherwise it's a nice model; nice looking, smooth running, and reminds me of riding to my in-laws' house in Japan :)

One thing I dislike is how Kato now puts that it's the add-on set on the case, and then gives you a sticker to put over that to say that it's the regular set.  The case comes with the add-on, nobody's buying the add-on without owning the basic set... why not just print that it's the E531 Joban Line set on it?  I don't think I'm going to apply that sticker; it's eventually going to rip up and look nasty.

Also, dumb question, but how do you actually take the shells off these to put the stickers on the cars?  The instructions seem to show everything but that.

[David]

The E531 shouldn't be noisy, you may have a bad motor car that needs to be repaired/replaced (I had the same problem with an E233 compared to my E531 and E231. All 3 use the same mechanism, but the E233 sounded like a razor).

In the case department what is really going to get you is when you try to complete the 10 car formation - the last 2 cars come loose, you need to buy the 5 car attached formation (a seperate powered set) which happens to have 2 extra spaces in the case.

Removing the shell shouldn't be too hard, the E231/E531/E233 all have a really loose shell that comes off much easier then previous ones where you had to wiggle it near the trucks. Just pry the shell apart a bit on both sides near the middle and hold it right side up - the bottom should fall out (at least partially) with gravity. The green cars can be more of a challenge, I ended up removing the trucks to provide a place to pry the shell off.

[spacecadet]

The E531 shouldn't be noisy, you may have a bad motor car that needs to be repaired/replaced (I had the same problem with an E233 compared to my E531 and E231. All 3 use the same mechanism, but the E233 sounded like a razor).

I found a couple YouTube videos of this train and they do sound basically like mine... here's one:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/471wG_RcIDA" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/471wG_RcIDA</a>

Is that what yours sounds like?  I just don't have much of a baseline.  My 0 series is whisper-quiet, so that's what I was expecting from a newer model.

Let's say I did have a defective motor car (I kinda doubt it, though) - how hard is it to return stuff to Hobby Search?  Is it even worth it?

[Martijn Meerts]

I don't have that model myself, but I can't say that's a normal sound when I compare it to other trains, including very old ones ...

It doesn't really sound like a broken motor either though, at least not judging from the not-too-great sound coming out of these laptop speakers ;)

If it is the motor that's the problem, it's probably easier and cheaper to get a new motor and replace it yourself. While it might not sound good to have to by a new motor for a train which is still under warrantee, shipping the thing back is likely more expensive than a new motor.

[Shashinka]

IDK much about the motor in that particular model, but it sounds a bit strained.

[spacecadet]

I'll take a video of my own train tonight and post it along with a couple others I've found for comparison.  Mine really sounds pretty similar, so I wonder if it's just the motor they're using in this model?  I've heard other people in past threads say theirs are quiet, though, so I dunno.

[KenS]

David's explanation of the shell removal is spot-on. But I'll provide one warning: the cab cars can be a bit tricky.  While the method is essentially the same as for the other cars, you need to spread and lift the body away from the cab first.  Then spread the end near the cab a bit and slide the body forward a hair.  There's a tiny bit of plastic light-guide on the chassis part that sticks into a hole on the body end (cab top-front behind the window) to light up the destination sign.  Sometimes this pops out with no effort on your part, and sometimes it needs a little encouragement.

The cab front also comes off the body (it just pops off) so you can place the end destination sign on the back part, behind the "windshield".

Putting the cabs back together can also sometimes be a challenge if the side "window" plastic bumps into the raised back section of the driver's cab part.  In that case, really thin cardboard (like a business card) can be used as a shim to force the "glass" into the window openings as you push the shell down onto the chassis.

And sometimes it just works with no problems at all.

[spacecadet]

And sometimes it just works with no problems at all.

I tried it tonight with the front cab car and it did work with no problems at all :)

Haven't tried the back one yet.

I didn't have time to shoot video tonight but I still plan to tomorrow.  I did try to open the motor to see what kind of motor I have but I have no idea how to do that either.  It seems to be contained in a little box inside the motor car, under the floor, and I can't figure out how to open that up.

I notice the instructions say if the model's noisy to just add some lubrication to the gears, so I might try that before going nuts on the motor.  I want to try the actual Kato oil, though, which I don't yet have.  (I have some generic oil that I got a while back from my local train store, but I've always been a bit suspicious of it, so I just want to know I'm using what they recommend.)

[KenS]

If you can see metal on the bottom of the box, it's one of the older design, and those are harder to get at (though not impossible), otherwise you should just be able to slide the box towards on end to unlock the tabs holding it in place, then lift it off.

See my EMU disassembly page for some photos and more detail.

[spacecadet]

Ok, well that was easy!  I guess this model has the new style motor (my shinkansen 0 has the old style):



Is there anything I can lubricate here?  Or just the gears in the trucks?

I did shoot some video tonight so you can hear the sound, just want to edit it together and then I'll post it to YouTube and add it here tomorrow.

[KenS]

I suggest reading the lubricant thread.  I haven't had to do any of that yet, so I can't speak to it myself.

[inobu]

The problem with lubing starts with the viscosity of the grease. Because of the motors RPM most of the lubrication ends up flying off. Add too much and it just collects dust that accumulates, clogs the gears and starts binding.

It is an odd for a Kato motor. I am more inclines to believe it is an batch or design issue.

Batch meaning the machining of the motors components that might be off balance.

Design meaning that the drive shafts are longer and thinner and may be fluttering with speed.

Is it the gears in the truck? its hard to tell in the video but I would guess the trucks are mostly the same.

Hard one to guess at.

I should add that we must make the decision of living with the noise or risk breaking something trying to fix the noise. You have to weight it out. I know my M250 makes more noise than I like but I like the train more than the noise so I don't risk it on that train.

Inobu

[brill27mcb]

Ok, well that was easy!  I guess this model has the new style motor (my shinkansen 0 has the old style):



Is there anything I can lubricate here?  Or just the gears in the trucks?

I did shoot some video tonight so you can hear the sound, just want to edit it together and then I'll post it to YouTube and add it here tomorrow.

In general, it is the high-rpm items and metal-on-metal items that need periodic lubrication. A very small amount of light oil can be applied on the shaft between each flywheel and the adjacent motor mounting bracket in such a way that it find its way to the motor shaft bearing, which is probably metal (on a metal shaft).

I try to avoid lubricating the plastic-on-plastic components in the trucks/bogies, since the modern Delrin-type material is designed to not need lubrication. Adding oil or thicker model RR gear lube to the trucks tends to gather dust and grime, making things worse in the long run. One option for that is Teflon in solution. They sell this at bicycle shops, for the bike chain. Make sure you get the clear liquid kind (one brand is Pedro's), not the thicker waxy kind. You apply it sparingly and let the volatile clear liquid evaporate, leaving a dry coating of teflon on the gear surface.

It also matters what the noise is. Is it a growly gear noise or a higher-pitched, steadier bearing noise? Play detective and listen carefully. You might also want to simply remove one truck at a time (with its drive shaft). See if the noise goes away without one, the other, or both trucks (motor alone). While they are removed, also slowly turn each truck's top gear with your finger, feeling for any gear roughness. This will help to localize the source of the noise.

Also, look at the armature's cylindrical surface for any scratches, indicating that loose bits may be stuck between the motor and the spinning armature. Roughness on the little universal balls at the ends of the plastic drive shafts can also be a culprit.

Rich K.

[spacecadet]

Ok, here is the video of my train:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/UvnFvpGhcG4" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/UvnFvpGhcG4</a>

You can hear the noise sometimes pretty loud, other times not so bad... in real life it gets steadily louder as the RPM's increase, but it seems like my camera picks up some lower frequencies better than high frequencies, so it kind of sounds worse when it's slower on the video.  It's the opposite in real life.  But I would describe it as a "growling" noise at low RPM and a "buzzing" noise at higher RPM.  Does that sound like the gears?

Also I don't know if this has anything to do with anything, but you can see in the one part where I stop the train at the station, it's kind of herky-jerky starting up again, but in that way where it seems easier on the motor on one side of its rotation.  I dunno if that's just because it needs to be broken in, or maybe just because I'm using DC.

I try to avoid lubricating the plastic-on-plastic components in the trucks/bogies, since the modern Delrin-type material is designed to not need lubrication.

I had my wife translate the instructions for me and one part says something like "if the motor car gets noisy, add a drop of oil in each gear", so I was just going by that.  And of course they recommend the Kato oil, but I don't know if there's anything special about their oil or not.  I didn't want to use anything else, though, since obviously whatever formula they're using has got to be designed to not react with whatever type of plastic they're using, if they're actually telling you to use it that way.

[inobu]

Spacecadet,

Rich, pretty much sums it up in going after the issue. You have to locate the general area of the noise, isolate it, locate it and then remedy it.

Before anything just run the motor car only. That way you reduce any ambient noise and locate the general area.

From there you start isolating as Rich pointed out.

Inobu 

 

[CaptOblivious]

Any luck?

[spacecadet]

Any luck?

I did actually try running the motor car by itself to see if I could hear exactly where the noise is coming from.  Not having a very trained ear for this kind of thing, it did sound to me like it was coming from the area of the gears.  I had resolved to just try a little of the Kato-recommended gear oil first - I know some people here don't recommend that, but it's in the actual instructions so I just thought I'd try it.  If that didn't work, I was going to figure out how I could just replace the motor - I don't think I'm technically proficient enough to fix it.

That's basically where I left it... I've been waiting to get a new Hobby Search order together so I can get some of the Kato gear oil (unless someone else knows of a domestic supplier where I don't need to pay $30 to ship a $2 bottle of oil).  Until then, I've just been living with the noise.  I don't have money for a new train or anything else from Hobby Search right now so I'm just waiting until I do.  I've sort of learned not to worry about it too much, although I still don't like the noise.

I had sort of put my trains away for a little while, then tonight for no reason at all I resolved to put all my stickers on this train, plus all the little extra bits (and I did!) - then I come here and see the followup on this thread.  Weird how that happens.

This train is now an Ueno-bound local :)

[CaptOblivious]

Since you'll probably have the trucks apart to lube them (you are going to clean them out first, right?), you might try this: Take one truck, and remove all the running gear and the axle, but leave the wheels. Run the train. Quieter? Yes: The truck you took apart is maybe the problem. No: Might be the other one? Put the truck back together, take the other one apart, wash, rinse, repeat. Quieter? Yes: It was the second truck after all. Or maybe it was the first one, but taking it apart, cleaning it, and lubing it solved the problem. No? Probably not the trucks then. Final test: Take both trucks apart, remove the running gear, put back on, rev the motor. Quieter? No? Then it's definitely the motor!