DCC Equiped Trains and DC

[ShinCanadaSen]

Hi,

I'm thinking of converting my growing fleet of trains to DCC (as I prefer using my DCC controller) is there any issue with operating DCC equiped trains on a DC layout? I'm just curious as I would like to be backwards compaticle (if that is even possible) in case I do find a club to join or just a place to run the trains.

Not sure if it would matter but the trains are all Kato, 500 Series (10-510), 0 Series (10-453), 251 series SVO (10-177) and an EH500 (3037-1?).

Thanks in advance :)

[Bernard]

You can't operate a DCC train on a DC layout (you'll fry the decoder) but you can operate a DC train on a DCC layout but I wouldn't do it for long.....it makes a horrible grinding sound. I only do it to test out a DC train before I convert it to DCC, making sure from the start that the train operates properly.

Wiring a layout for DCC really isn't too hard, as a matter of fact it can take less wiring than a DCC layout.

As for the trains you have, a lot of them are listed in a "step-by-step" process at various threads in this forum.
The 500, 0 & Super View are fairly easy....but the EH500 might be a little difficult but I know a couple of members here have done it and documented here.

[Martijn Meerts]

There are decoders that can also be run on analog layouts, but it's not exactly healthy for the trains in the long run...

The trains you mention are easy enough to install decoders in. The EH500 is probably the most challenging. I've done a decoder install in a Tomix EH500, which wasn't all that bad.

One thing I can recommend, is don't pick decoders based on price. The cheaper ones are often also fairly big. It's no problem in many trains, but in things like steam locomotives and for example the EH500, the smaller the decoder, the better :)

[CaptOblivious]

Running a DCC decoder that's designed to work with DC (which all current offerings from Digitrax, NCE, and TCS are), is hardly unhealthy for the decoder. There is absolutely no problem doing so, provided the decoder is designed for it (in doubt? Read the manual!) I do it all the time, and I cannot imagine how it could possibly harm the decoder.

[Martijn Meerts]

Might be I was just unlucky, I've fried a decoder or 2 by (accidentally) running it on a DC layout. They were decoders that could handle analog according to the manual, but it might have been turned off in the decoder. It was in the early days, when I didn't do any installs myself, and didn't know much about decoders :)

[Webskipper]

Wiring a layout for DCC really isn't too hard, as a matter of fact it can take less wiring than a DCC layout.

I have a Unitrack system and want to upgrade the layout to DCC.

What wiring needs to change? Heavier gauge?

[quinntopia]

I have a Unitrack system and want to upgrade the layout to DCC.

What wiring needs to change? Heavier gauge?

I think the biggest factor is how much track your going to be running with that DCC controller.  If its a relatively small loop, then your probably just fine with the Kato power plugs the way I expect you have them set up for your DC set up right now.  Before I expanded my layout, I just used multiple Kato connectors, but once my lines started to get longer with my expansion, I needed to upgrade my wiring to a heavier gauge (14) 'bus wiring' system.  I could tell I had a problem in that I started to find my locomotives were getting really resistant at obeying my DCC commands!  Another post on this forum convinced me that this was probably my problem, and sure enough, after I upgraded my wiring my locomotives started responding flawlessly again.

[KenS]

Heavier gauge wire is mostly needed where the wire will carry more power (or due to length, as noted).  Power loss in wires depends on current as well as size, and track loses more power than an equivalent length of wire. A DC throttle will never put out more than 1-2 Amps, so hooking up a 10-foot tree of 24 gauge wire with Kato's little 3-way splitters works fine, as does using one feeder on a 15-foot loop of track.  But once you're running a number of trains, or have wires or track more than about 10-15 feet long, you really benefit from switching to a bus design (one heavy-gauge wire, like 16 ga or 14 ga, with short 20-24ga feeders dropped off it at intervals).  I drop feeders on my Unitrack every 4-6 feet; some people advocate feeding every section of track, which might be a good idea if a section is 3-feet of flex and its permanently installed, but is a bit more work than necessary with 124mm sections of Unitrack.

Another issue with Unitrack is that Unijoiners get bent/dirty with time, and don't conduct as well.  More feeders help minimize the impact from that, but another solution is just to identify and replace them. A bag of new Unijoiners is a cheap investment. I took my multimeter out last summer and measured resistance across every track joint.  Most were <3 ohms, some were in the 3-10 ohm range, and about 5% were >30 ohms.  I trashed the latter.  Again, the impact of a Unijoiner problem is going to be greater if power for more than one train needs to flow through it. But even on a DC layout, you'll see benefit from replacing the really bad ones.

[Martijn Meerts]

Wiring a layout for DCC really isn't too hard, as a matter of fact it can take less wiring than a DCC layout.

I have a Unitrack system and want to upgrade the layout to DCC.

What wiring needs to change? Heavier gauge?

Depends on where you want to go with DCC. If you're happy with only running the loco's on DCC, you won't have to change much at all. If you want to control turnouts using DCC as well, you'll need some additional turnout decoders which need to be wired up. If you want to go full computer automation you'll be looking at blocks using feedback modules and occupancy detectors, which adds a TON of wiring =)

[Webskipper]

Nice feedback.  You guys just created a monster of fresh ideas.

I have an M1 and a V11 set.  Recently just scored a treasure chest of new Kato single tracks, couple DCC locos and misc freight cars. Guy wanted out of N and to go back to HO due to eyesight issues.  I even gave the guy an out twice. Eyes too bad to work on the small locos he said.

So 120 9.75" straights later, 6 siding sets, 2 pier sets, few bridges, yard set, dc convertors, etc.  I'll have to take inventory so I don't buy anything else except a DCC controller.

I'm looking to create a 6-7 foot by maybe 4 foot table very soon on which I can enjoy a permanent (screwed on) layout.  I'll do some Ntrak layouts later. Need to look after #1 first.

Eventually, most everything on the layout will be DCC so I can control it with my iPhone.

The new Zephyr Xtra 3Amp is looking like the starter system for me.

[Martijn Meerts]

If you want to use an iOS device to control trains, you could also have a look at the ESU ECoS, Marklin Central Station 2, or even the Lenz system with the new interface. These devices have a network connection built in, which makes it a lot easier to use an iOS device. Of course, they're more expensive, but on the other hand, you don't have to get additional software apart from the iOS app. You could go for a freeware program like JMRI or RocRail, lots of people seem to like those (I rather hate them personally :))

[Webskipper]

Of course, they're more expensive, but on the other hand, you don't have to get additional software apart from the iOS app.

For that money it had better start my coffee. :)

Thanks. The Zephyr will keep me busy for a long time. Something better will always come onto the market.

[inobu]

Even though I rave about JMRI, every time I see that video of the Marklin CS2 I just start laughing ........... I can't believe everything that is build in that unit. even has USB port for mouse and keyboard. Ahhhh!!!!!

Yeah, if you have the money it is a nice thing to have.

Inobu

[Martijn Meerts]

Obviously it all depends on what you need/want from a digital system. The advantage the ECoS/CS2 (currently) has compared to others, is that you can use an iOS device directly with the command station. In case of the Digitrax, you'll need a additional computer interface, as well as a pc with software that supports the Digitrax interface and iOS devices (JMRI being one of such softwares :))

I guess though, that the ECoS and CS2 are even more expensive in the US than they are in Europe. I was lucky enough to be able to go to Germany (I live close to the border to Germany) and pick up an ECoS 2 there. For me, buying a Digitrax Zephyr for example would mean I'd be paying twice the price after adding shipping and customs etc.


The way I see it, various command station fit with various scenarios:
- You want no automation at all, but just manually run trains and set switches, and no computer control. In this case, a system like the Zephyr is more than enough. With the addition of JMRI, you can also use iOS devices.

- You want a semi-automated system where you can set up routes and do automatic point to point lines (without too much additional components), but at the same time also run (some) trains manually. In that case, something like the ECoS or CS would probably be best.

- You want full computer control/automation. In this case any system with a pc interface will work. There's even very basic command stations without throttle, but only a pc interface.


Personally, I have various systems myself. I have the old Marklin 6021 control unit (x2, I bought 2 of the large digital starter sets) with additional keyboard and interface, as well as a mobile station (mainly) for Mfx loco's. I also have the Lenz LZV100/LH100 combination, also with pc interface. And lastly I have the ECoS 2. My father has the original Trix Selectrix system, also including pc interface.

All of these systems have their advantages and disadvantages, and no one of them is per definition better than the others.