Kato E5 Shinkansen

[Hezekiah Strawbody]

Kato have just announced 3 sets to make up the 10 car E5 Shinkansen in March 2011 

http://www.1999.co.jp/10134780
http://www.1999.co.jp/10134781
http://www.1999.co.jp/10134782

[Martijn Meerts]

Pre-ordered =)

Can't say it's the best looking shinkansen, but still =)

[to2leo]

I might order E6 but I will pass on E5.

[Nozomi4ever]

Very ugly design!!

What happened to the beautiful design of the Shinkansen after that pretty JR 500 and JR 800 ?!! 

[Martijn Meerts]

It all has to do with the environment, and also depends on where the trains will be running and at what speeds.

A train traveling at 300km/h entering or exiting a tunnel creates massive shockwaves. It's even worse when 2 trains traveling in opposite directions pass each other. The newer designs are all about limiting tunnel boom as much as possible.

When I lived in Norway, and took the train home from work, I always got on at an underground station. The station also serviced an airport express train. Whenever that train drove into the station, you could actually feel the air from the direction the train was coming from being pushed to the other direction, long before the train was visible. Those trains, when entering the station, did about 60-70 tops, yet the air movement was very noticeable. I can't even imagine what kinda air movements a train going 300km/h in a tunnel would generate =)

[Nozomi]

Pre-ordered!

[KenS]

Preordered.  I can't say that I like the nose, but it's a great color and the design is growing on me.

[Martijn Meerts]

Just noticed, the E5 is 10 cars, the E6 is 7 cars. The E5 and E6 have been seen coupled up before for a test run...

The question is, will they be running coupled in service as well, because if they do, I might need to revise my storage yard a bit so I can store at least a couple of longer-than-16-cars trains ;)

[disturbman]

I don't think you'll need to since the E6 cars are shorter than the one of the E5 or any normal shinkansen. An E6 7-cars train set is shorter by ~30m than a normal 7-cars formation. Which means than your E5+E7 formation is should be more or less the lenght than a 16-cars train since the end cars of the E5 are slightly longer than those of the previous shinkansen. If you want a more detail answer I'll invite you to do the math yourself. :)

[Martijn Meerts]

I don't think you'll need to since the E6 cars are shorter than the one of the E5 or any normal shinkansen. An E6 7-cars train set is shorter by ~30m than a normal 7-cars formation. Which means than your E5+E7 formation is should be more or less the lenght than a 16-cars train since the end cars of the E5 are slightly longer than those of the previous shinkansen. If you want a more detail answer I'll invite you to do the math yourself. :)

That actually makes sense considering most stations can only barely fit a 16-car shinkansen. I guess they don't feel like upgrading all the platforms with an extra car-length worth =)

[KenS]

The question is, will they be running coupled in service as well, because if they do, I might need to revise my storage yard a bit so I can store at least a couple of longer-than-16-cars trains ;)

Sounds like it.  The Japanese text on HS (Google Translated) says:

(5) Designed for the future operation and E6 of the system and 併結, E514 is set to switch off.

Which sounds like there's a switch for the headlights on one car in anticipation of such coupling.  And it confirms (not that we really needed it) Kato's intent to do an E6 model eventually.

[to2leo]

Yeah E6, now I wonder if there is an E6 + E6 formation...

[Martijn Meerts]

The E6 isn't that much different from the E5, so it'd make sense for Kato to come up with an E6 sooner rather than later as well. Maybe they'll do the same as with the E5 and release the E6 the same month as the prototype starts service =)

[clem24]

Yeah E6, now I wonder if there is an E6 + E6 formation...

Why would they hook up 2 Akita mini-Shinkansen? It'd be like hooking up 2 - E3 sets... Plus the coupler would be on only be on the Tokyo facing end of the train anyway. Although I suppose it's your layout and you could do whatever you want hehehe.

For me, I think I'd rather wait for the Tomix release. We know for a fact it'll be released but I'd rather take full train power pickup and conventional couplers than those odd Kato kinematic couplers. Although maybe my mind will change when it does get released hehehe.

[Martijn Meerts]

I guess Tomix will follow with an E5 release soon after Kato, unless Tomix comes with a surprise announcement of an E5 before xmas =)

I'm actually also quite tempted to get mostly Tomix shinkansen because of the full train pickup, but on the other hand, I have some issues with those trains as well. Some cars are hard to couple, which in turn makes the diaphragm things too tight. Especially my Tomix 0 series (one of the early ones with the full train pickup I believe) seems to have this problem. It's most noticable on the motor cars.

It has to be said though, I haven't really looked at it much, only gave it a quick test run. It might be a non-issue, or at least an easy fix.

[Shashinka]

Kato have just announced 3 sets to make up the 10 car E5 Shinkansen in March 2011 

http://www.1999.co.jp/10134780
http://www.1999.co.jp/10134781
http://www.1999.co.jp/10134782

I'd've rather seen the FasTech 360 released.

[Webskipper]

It's actually a good looking design with a Pinocchio Platypus face.

So what airplane is it reminding me of? Boeing 787 Dreamliner?

[Kumo]

Kato have just announced 3 sets to make up the 10 car E5 Shinkansen in March 2011 

http://www.1999.co.jp/10134780
http://www.1999.co.jp/10134781
http://www.1999.co.jp/10134782

I'd've rather seen the FasTech 360 released.

Oh yeah, this would have been a good one on our layouts!!

[disturbman]

So what airplane is it reminding me of? Boeing 787 Dreamliner?

The Concorde maybe. I don't know any jet liner with such a nose. You might be better checking out fighters or bomber jets for any ressemblence.


This train is making my wallet and brain itch. Maybe I'll order the E6 release. it's really a beautifull train.

[Kumo]

So what airplane is it reminding me of? Boeing 787 Dreamliner?

The Concorde maybe. I don't know any jet liner with such a nose. You might be better checking out fighters or bomber jets for any ressemblence.

It certainly has the weird look of an Airbus Beluga!

[Shashinka]

Ugh, I remember those planes all too well. We use to refab the land gear for those at Fairchild-EADS.

[alpineaustralia]

Doesnt look like the Kato model will be DCC friendly. Hmmm.

[Bernard]

Doesnt look like the Kato model will be DCC friendly. Hmmm.

Are you sure? It reminds of the Kato 500 & 700 in design...or I'm hoping it does.

[KenS]

Kato's support for DCC is really odd.  The series 500 (10-510), which is apparently a newer design than the E3 Komachi (10-221), lacks "DCC Friendly" status even though the E3 has it (which surprised the heck out of me when I discovered the decoder socket on the E3; should have read the page on Kato's site more closely). Although perhaps the 10-510 is just a repackaged version of the older 10-382 model.

It may be a size issue.  the EM13 motor decoder is about 14mm wide, and needs the frame to be wider than that to hold it.  That, coupled with the tilt mechanism, may be just too much to fit in the E5.

[Nozomi4ever]

I hope it will be fitted with a sound decorder. Don't mind paying more if they do that because I am tired of seeing train models with those "electrical" sounds..

[Webskipper]

Bullet Comparison Picture

[cteno4]

someone had a kit bashed E5 on our sister clubs layout in Iwate recently.

now im hoping tomix will also do this model with the n700 all wheel pickup!

http://www4.hp-ez.com/img/iwatetsu/a_115361_0.jpg

cheers

jeff

[clem24]

The more I think about it the more I am definitely going to wait this one out. Definitely not worried about it going out of stock as Shinkansen models are usually available in huge abundances soon after release. I am really hoping Tomix will make an awesome model and will have some new feature in it that makes it a must have. Otherwise no biggie, I'll just order this model! 40 wheel pick up > tilting any day! Has Tomix even announced this item yet??

[Martijn Meerts]

Don't think Tomix has announced it, pretty sure they will release it at some point though. I'm not sure what kinda new features would make it a must-have, I can't think of anything other than factory equipped with a sound decoder, which isn't very likely ;)

[westfalen]

Don't think Tomix has announced it, pretty sure they will release it at some point though. I'm not sure what kinda new features would make it a must-have, I can't think of anything other than factory equipped with a sound decoder, which isn't very likely ;)

What would a Shinkansen sound decoder do, make a loud whooshing sound as it goes past?

[Webskipper]

Horn and turbine sound?

What does a Bullet train horn sound like?

[Martijn Meerts]

There's a lot of sounds you could add.. station announcements, horns, engine start up, acceleration, break squeal etc.

But other than a sound decoder for example, what you Tomix add as new feature to make it special?

[clem24]

There's a lot of sounds you could add.. station announcements, horns, engine start up, acceleration, break squeal etc.

Don't forget the annoying "beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep-beep" when the train enters or leaves a station.

And a E5 flying by would sound like pppffffffffffffffffffffPEW-PEW-PEW-PEW-PEW-PEW-PEW-PEW-PEW-PEEEEEEheeeeeeeewwwweeewwweeewwwweeewwweeewww

Yeah I am bored.

[Nozomi4ever]

There's a lot of sounds you could add.. station announcements, horns, engine start up, acceleration, break squeal etc.

But other than a sound decoder for example, what you Tomix add as new feature to make it special?

yeah.. I want it to be comissioned with ESU Loksound..(Just like other Japanese Prototypes)
Sound functions will be: (If introduced)
F0 electric engine surrounding sound        F3 Japanese station annoucements                              F6 wipers on/off            F9 Horn
F1 Pantograph up                                  F4 Onboard train annnoucements(Japanese and English)  F7 Headlights on/off       F10 exhaust
F2 Pantograph Down                              F5 Doors open/close                                                  F8 Whistle blowing         F11 lights on/off

[David]

There's a lot of sounds you could add.. station announcements, horns, engine start up, acceleration, break squeal etc.

But other than a sound decoder for example, what you Tomix add as new feature to make it special?

yeah.. I want it to be comissioned with ESU Loksound..(Just like other Japanese Prototypes)
Sound functions will be: (If introduced)
F0 electric engine surrounding sound        F3 Japanese station annoucements                              F6 wipers on/off            F9 Horn
F1 Pantograph up                                  F4 Onboard train annnoucements(Japanese and English)  F7 Headlights on/off       F10 exhaust
F2 Pantograph Down                              F5 Doors open/close                                                  F8 Whistle blowing         F11 lights on/off

It would be interesting to get sound in Japanese trains, I've always thought there was plenty of room in one of the unpowered cars. Obviously some of those functions are already used for lights, and it would make sense to try and align the few functions that have managed to become standardized in America with their Japanese equivalent. It would also be nice to get more of the functions standardized from the start. Keep in mind that you have EMU/DMUs, electric, diesel and steam locomotive pulled trains to map, and it would be nice if they where more or less the same. Also some DCC systems/throttles can only use F0-F12, and not all the way to F28.

I would ensure the lower bound functions cover lighting (master on/off, manual control of front and rear headlights for consists, control of room lights) and then reserve the rest of the F0-13 range for generic sounds/functions (doors, whistles, etc). I would then put the line specific sounds, the onboard station announcements, at F14-F28. This gives up to 15 distinct station announcements directly, or more if toggling is used (i.e. F26, F27 and F28 used to toggle between 3 different sets of 12 stations, arranged in order). Switcher locomotives might use the higher functions as shortcuts for prototypical signal lighting (where they turn on/off left or right backup lights to signal what the switcher is going to do).

[Martijn Meerts]

A major problem with sound in longer trains, is when the train (the prototype anyway) has distributed power, like a small motor in each car. In that case you'd need multiple sound decoders (1 for every 3 or 4 cars or so) in order to get it to sound reasonable. With such small speakers it's very obvious which car has the sound decoder fitted.

Of course, adding a sound decoder would make the train twice as expensive as well (ESU Loksound Micro for example is expensive, 120 euro, or 160 USD), not to mention that many people wouldn't be able to run it, unless they add a decoder that can handle analog as well. And of course, there's the people who don't want sound, so you'd have to build 2 versions, which increases the cost even for the non-sound model.


Good sound adds a lot to a train, but good sound requires space for a decent speaker, something which is generally lacking in N-scale. Also, you need to know sound to be able to find the right spot for the speaker, you can't just place it anywhere there's space. Trains with good sound are usually designed with sound in mind.

[David]

Of course, adding a sound decoder would make the train twice as expensive as well (ESU Loksound Micro for example is expensive, 120 euro, or 160 USD), not to mention that many people wouldn't be able to run it, unless they add a decoder that can handle analog as well. And of course, there's the people who don't want sound, so you'd have to build 2 versions, which increases the cost even for the non-sound model.

That's inflated Euro costs of course - in the US it's $50-$100 for sound. Of course your point that it adds costs for everyone is good. Give that sound really only needs the two pickups (no extra wiring), could Kato provide a standard "slot" in one or more cars of each set, similar to how they do with the interior lighting system? Then you have the choice of no sound, single car sound, or multiple car sound (just like you have the choice of no lights, lights and DCC controlled lights). I think making a single standard design (for EMU/DMU) would help as well.

[KenS]

I think that's an interesting idea, but given the size of a sound decoder they'd need a large slot just for the decoder, and some place to mount the speaker with a sealed box behind it and the front exposed to the outside (directly or through a grill).  I've looked at mounting something like an ESU micro in an EMU, and a typical speaker would take up most of the space below the body between the trucks once you allow for mounting and there isn't much room for a sound box.

There's about 65mm between the trucks on a typical commuter EMU.  The ESU LokSound micro is 28mm long (Tsunami is 25mm but they don't appear to have any electric sounds) and typical oval speakers are around 25mm. That doesn't leave much room for mounting, although it does seem like it might be possible with a custom design. I'm still thinking about mounting a standard one myself with some "similar" electric motor sound, but I'd probably have to fit the decoder inside the car body.

Most N-scale locos with built-in sound use small (13mm) circular speakers mounted in the fuel tank. That would be easier to fit than the big oval ones, but I'd worry about the sound quality. The small speaker coupled with the small soundbox possible in a typicial "under the motor" mounting point may be a big part of the reported poor sound in N-scale. With EMUs you don't need to worry about the motor, but you do have to decide if you want to sacrifice interior detail/lighting to get sound.

BTW, a micro Tsunami is around US$110 from MB Klein, and I've seen the ESU Micro for US$130-140 from U.S. dealers, so that's the likely cost for high-quality sound here. Digitrax could do something at a lower price point (their plug-in N-scale sound decoders are about $55), but they don't seem to have as good a reputation for sound decoders, although I've never (yet) used one.

I'd love to see Kato do a custom sound decoder and modify their "DCC Friendly" trains to support it. But I'm not going to hold my breath.  Unless they can sell sound to the Japanese market more effectively than they seem to have managed to sell DCC itself they're not likely to have the volume to justify a custom decoder and re-tooling for future car designs.

[Nozomi]

When I pre-ordered the Kato E5 I had two concerns:

1. Will they use the same flimsy coupling system as with the N700?
2. Will they use the same style of front 'nose-doors' as with the E4 (they easily fall off and aren't that easily re-applied)?

Kato released CAD-Pics of their E5 model today: http://www.katomodels.com/n/e5kei/

It looks like my concerns were unfounded. Now I await the release of the E5 even more eagerly!

[clem24]

Kato released CAD-Pics of their E5 model today: http://www.katomodels.com/n/e5kei/

Interesting. So looks like it gains the coupling system from the E3, which IMHO looks... strange around curves, and they've ditched the prettier and complicated retractable nose cone in favour of a simple, removable one like Tomix..?

Does goes to show that I think Tomix might have had it right all along with their simple couplers, now adapted for full train pick up. That design essentially has not changed (except for their brief experience with the 700 and 800 series "T" couplers) whereas Kato has now had 4 different coupling systems.

[KenS]

Ick.  I have an E3, and it's much harder to get it to couple reliably than my 500 Series or commuter EMUs.  That does look like the E3 system, and that's not good news.

[cteno4]

While i find the kato diaprhagm couplers a bit more realistic they have always presented a problem running. while the 500 works reasonably well, i found the E4 and n700 just horrible to make run well on kato double viaduct track.

I too will be waiting for the Tomix version with hopes for the all wheel pickup and standard nose connectors with my other tomix trains. it was total night and day between the tomix and kato n700 trains. the tomix n700 is probably the best running train i have ever had (full 16 car) and the kato the worst! usually i personally find only minor differences between the two brands (500s for interest are pretty identical in running except diaphragm looks and slight color difference) but here it was huge!

i was jealous of the new kato nose doors when they came out as i had moved to tomix to get nose couplers on those trains, but now that i hear they can fall apart easily im not so jealous! just have to keep track of those nose caps when you take them off, so easy to go poof!

cheers

jeff

[CaptOblivious]

The E4 nose doors do fall apart easily. I notice that they are using a new kind of nose door on the E5, though, interesting.

I wish they had stuck with the diaphragm coupler used on the E4 model: It is very robust, yet easy to couple.

[Darklighter]

New pics: http://www.katomodels.com/n/e5kei/

Looks fantastic, can't wait for the release!

[Martijn Meerts]

Looking good. I quite like the paint, bit of a pearlescent effect in there it seems.

[Nozomi]

Wow! This must be the coolest model ever!

Even better: I'm going to Japan in April and will ride the real thing!

[clem24]

Wow! This must be the coolest model ever!

Even better: I'm going to Japan in April and will ride the real thing!

Can you actually pick which train type you can ride on? I assume you'd have to wait. I know I was able to pick seats (i.e. the 2 side instead of the 3 side) but I didn't really think to ask what particular train would be running...

[Nozomi]

Wow! This must be the coolest model ever!

Even better: I'm going to Japan in April and will ride the real thing!

Can you actually pick which train type you can ride on? I assume you'd have to wait. I know I was able to pick seats (i.e. the 2 side instead of the 3 side) but I didn't really think to ask what particular train would be running...

The service name 'Hayabusa' is exclusive for E5 trains (to my knowledge). Also, the new premium cabin 'GranClass' is only available on E5 rolling stock. So there should not be any problems in booking the right rolling stock.

Last year, I spent 3 weeks in Japan and only thing I had to do was going train shopping and train riding. From that experience I know that Midori-no-madoguchi-staff is very knowledgeable about the types of train.

The Japanese language pocket time table of Tokaido/Sanyo shinkansen, shows which services use to most modern stock (N700 series). When I was in Japan last year there was only one Nozomi run from Tokyo to Hakata per day by 500series shinkansen. This was also marked in the pocket guide.

[Martijn Meerts]

I believe there's been a Hayabusa service before, but that was an express train. I seem to remember Tomix having this special version of that train with all cars and 4 different loco's that have been used for the train. Seems right now the E5 is the only train running under the Hayabusa name though.

[clem24]

I believe there's been a Hayabusa service before, but that was an express train. I seem to remember Tomix having this special version of that train with all cars and 4 different loco's that have been used for the train. Seems right now the E5 is the only train running under the Hayabusa name though.

LOL dude yeah it used 14 series sleeper trains but that's not relevant here. I guess you'd have to go to Shin-Aomori otherwise you'd be placed on a different train. Although I suppose you could always request a specific service. What I was really referring to is getting to choose the type of train you ride on. For say the Tokaido Shinkansen, you never know what it will be until you get to the platform. But with this Hayabusa service, I guess Nozomi is right.. Only the E5 runs this service. Or maybe they'll be sneaky and substitute a different train like they sometimes did on the Asama service during peak travel times.