Kato/Roundhouse D51-498 decoder install

[Martijn Meerts]

No pictures yet, because I haven't installed anything yet :)

The train in question is the Orient Express version of the D51-498. As with most Roundhouse items, the loco is just a re-release of an old Kato train, so it's not exactly DCC-friendly. On top of that, the train has no headlight, which seems odd considering the Orient Express car sets are very nicely done and even have lit table lamps in the restaurant car...

The loco is designed as a split frame, with the frame made of a metal which is near impossible to solder on. Since the D51 isn't a very big locomotive, there's next to no room in the frame to drill holes to allow for either screws to be tapped in and soldered to for example.

There's pretty much 2 options. 1 is to solder the track power to the copper strips in the tender and run 2 wires from the tender to the locomotive, where the decoder is located. The obvious disadvantage is that you need wires between tender and locomotive, but that's not entirely uncommon, and it might be possible to hide the wires reasonably well. There's also plenty room in the tender for the decoder, but in that case you still need 2 wires from tender to locomotive, or more if you add headlights.

Adding headlights isn't easy either, as the shell isn't even prepared for it. I'd have to hollow out the existing headlight enough to make room for a tiny SMD LED. I'd then need to carefully drill a tiny hole or 2 from the headlight through the shell in order to get the wires inside the shell. Once the LED is placed, I'll need to find a way to "close" the headlight again, so that it looks like a lamp rather than a hollowed out cylinder with an LED at the end ;)

All in all, not an easy project (unless I skip the light thing, but the Orient Express can't possible be driving around with a loco without lights ....)

[Martijn Meerts]

Took a couple of pictures of the train in question.

Image 01:
The train in pieces. As you can see, the frame is fairly whimsical, and the metal block really fills up all the space. I could mill a piece out of the metal weight to make some extra room, but it's probably easier to just grab power from the tender and run the wires between tender and locomotive. Also, if you look closely, you'll see there's no light, and no indication that there should be a light =)

Image 02:
Inside the tender. The plastic bit with the 2 copper strips is clipped into the tender. Those strips almost scream "solder me!" :) Conveniently, there's a little slot in the tender close to the locomotive, which makes me believe at one point or another they were planning on running wires from tender to locomotive :)

[stevenh]

I tried this a year or two ago, with a C62... The Tsubame, I believe.

And I destroyed it... I tried running thin wire (maybe even winding wire) between the tender and body, but that wouldn't sit flat on the rails, nor negotiate corners well. I also realised that you need to keep the power wires running from the body to the tender, otherwise the power pick-up is useless. Especially useless if your tender is not sitting flat (and I'm talking nanometers.)

All the best with this, I do wish to finish mine one day... it's all stored away hundreds of kilometres away. Luckily, I didn't destroy it beyond recognition, but I did leave it in a bad state... repairable :)

[inobu]

Based on what Stevenh added the key is in the tenders coupler.

You have to make the coupler the basis for your connection. Turn it into a PCB that way it has dual functionality. Coupler and conduit for power.

Double sided PCB may get all 4 wire across, gives you the stability and may not change the geometry of the tender.

That is a challenging one, I would like to tackle that one........ maybe not.

Inobu





 

[Martijn Meerts]

Steven, the advantage here is that the tender is fairly heavy, the wires really shouldn't  influence the tender at all. The Kato/Roundhouse Paleo Express locomotive has wires from the loco to the tender installed from the factory, and it runs great as well.

Inobu, I might look into that. The only problem I see is that PCB's are often fairly thick. Maybe I should look for one of those PCB's you can etch yourself, and just cut out a "coupler" from one of those to replace the current plastic one completely.


I guess I'll try the wires first, since they're easy to do and reversible. I can always try and make a coupler later on.

Another option would possible be to solder the wires to the coupler near the loco body itself, and route the wires up towards the decoder from there. Need to check out if that's doable.

[Martijn Meerts]

Well, this train is proving to be a handful =)

I soldered wires to the brass pickups close to where the brass strips connect to the loco frame. I routed them upwards through the 2 frame halves up to the decoder. It actually works quite well.

The problem is, somewhere along the line it seems the wheels got messed up, meaning the drive rods aren't aligned anymore. I spent about 4 hours yesterday trying to get them back in place, and while I'm really close, they're still not 100% :)

Also, still no head light installed, since the smallest SMD LEDs I have are still too big. Need to get some of those new 1.0 x 0.5 mm ones.

[Webskipper]

I have the D51-125 SL Starter set.

Steamer looks great except that I did not know about the decorative headlamp until I got it. I mean the 3 cars have directional tail lamps. Kmon Kato.

Anyway looks like the new Kato 2016-1 D51-498 has working headlamp on the engine and even the tender. The SL will be fine subdued behind the D51-498.

Any luck on adding a decoder? The setup "should be" like the Mikado where you can add a decoder to the tender.

[Martijn Meerts]

The decoder install itself wasn't too bad actually. Just me being not careful enough and letting the wheels get misaligned. Haven't looked at it more since last time, but I expect I'll be doing a LOT more decoder installs and loco maintenance once the move to the new house (sometime mid to late october) is taken care of.

I did get some of the 1.0 x 0.5 mm SMD LEDs for the headlight. If you think you've seen small LEDs, you haven't seen these tiny things yet. I can't believe there's actually light coming from them ;)

Installing the LED should be fairly straightforward as well, just need to be careful when milling out the headlight and drill a tiny hole for the wires.


The new D51-498 seems to be new tooling, with the motor in the boiler. That means my D51-498 is completely different. I actually have a MicroAce D51-498 as well, but the Roundhouse one of course has the Orient Express lettering on the tender ;)

[westfalen]

I used these instructions for installing a sound decoder in my new D51-498.

http://www5a.biglobe.ne.jp/~toyoyasu/m101212.htm

[Webskipper]

http://www5a.biglobe.ne.jp/~toyoyasu/m101212.htm

Which decoder do you recommend?  No sound.

[westfalen]

http://www5a.biglobe.ne.jp/~toyoyasu/m101212.htm

Which decoder do you recommend?  No sound.

There's plenty of room in the tender so just about anything would fit, I'd probably use either a Digitrax DZ125 or TCS Z2, whichever I had on hand.

[Webskipper]

Would it be easier to install lighting just by getting the D51-498 headlamp unit?  Will that unit fit my SL or do I need the Body Shell and tender shell to do this correctly? 

The D51 doesn't look like it has too much candy so only the Steamer hobbyists will probably know the difference between the shells of the D51. Here in the Desert I have a bunch of folks from Asia that come to see my operating Japanese collection at the museum.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/ctOk57mDubY" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/ctOk57mDubY</a>

http://www.katomodels.com/product/assy/pdf/2016-1_[D51-498].pdf

[Webskipper]

Disassembled the Kato D51 SL today.

Very tight fitment.

Looks like the only clean install involves grinding a perch into the boiler weight just forward of the cab for a Z Scale decoder such as the TCS Z2 12.95X 6.65 X 2.79mm.

What type of ferrous metal is this?

[Martijn Meerts]

I tried milling the frame of a Tomix DD51 at some point, but game up because it took too long. I don't really have the equipment for it though, just tried using a dremel with a grinding disc.

I decided to put the decoder (a lenz silver+ mini, really small) on top of the motor. From the usual viewing angle you can't see it at all, only if you look up at the cabin it shows. Even if it did show though, it doesn't matter much considering the entire motor is visible as well ;)


As for using a headlamp of the new D51, I expect the headlamp is part of the shell, so you'd have to get the whole shell, and I doubt the new shell will fit on the old chassis.

[CaptOblivious]

Dremel plus high-speed cutting bits will make short work of the frame. Be careful with the Z2, as you might find that the stall current rating is overly optimistic: After sending 5 or 6 back to TCS in a row, the tech guy called me up to find out what was happening. He strongly recommend against their use in N scale models.

Is there room in the tender for something?

[Martijn Meerts]

Tons of space in the tender for a decoder, but you'd have to run 2 (or 4, if you want to install headlight) wires from tender to loco. Not that big a deal, but I always try not to have wires run between loco and tender, had too much problems with that. (although, mostly on small radius curves ;))

One thing to keep in mind with milling the frame, N scale loco's don't weigh much to start with, and milling bits of the frame can negatively affect running characteristics a LOT.

[Webskipper]

TCS has connectors for use between loco and tenders.

http://www.tcsdcc.com/public_html/Customer_Content/Products/Supplies/Connectors/QuickPlugConnectors.htm

I'm going to be using the grinder/mill here at work to fit a TCS M1 into the boiler weight.

Will show pics tonight or tomorrow.

[Webskipper]

I used a conical diamond bit to remove most of the mass, then a little hand jive with a file, and here are the pics. Sorry about the blurriness.

Make sure that the decoder is completely isolated from the chassis. Wrap with kapton tape if necessary.

Solder the motor wires to the pickup pins when out of the motor or you can easily melt the motor and have binding if you try to solder directly when they are installed.

Isolate the lower motor pickup with kapton tape and add some tape to the chassis under the motor to prevent anything touching the chassis.

Snip and isolate the light wires if they are not needed.

Orange wire to bottom motor pickup, grey to top.

Loco moves forward with forward command, so beginners luck.