Guys, need help with layout measurements, and track radius..

[Samurai_Chris]

I have supplied a pic below of the track that I want to start with.. The main focus is the strait Shinkansen run that will be either 6 or 8 Tomix (1067) ＤＳ280-ＳＬ depending on how I can fit it...

The problem I am having is working out what radius I will need in order to get it to the shape I want, and what the distance on all sides would be... So I thought I would ask you guys what you think.. The bright red is the strait track that will be visible. And the darker red will be the curved sections hidden in the tunnels. I will probably just go with Fine Tracks single rail sets to cut down on price...

The image provided is to be at 90* and fit into the corner of a room...

[Martijn Meerts]

For the curved sections, you'll need at least a 317mm radius (Tomix C317 curves) considering that's the recommended minimum radius for Tomix shinkansen. Kato and MicroAce will also run fine on 317mm radius.

Most of the trains CAN run on smaller radius curves, but I wouldn't recommend it. Especially the newer Tomix with the power conducting couplers aren't really consistent with their couplers.

[Samurai_Chris]

Thanks Martijn.

At the moment, I am only focused on the Shinkansen track to get me started. The local rail seen in blue will be built around it, and is only a guide for now..

Its the radius for the design I have that is the problem I am facing.. (Remember the Shinkansen will be double track....

[Samurai_Chris]

Just worked out that on the 90 degree angle, I need 280 for the inside rail x 2. and 317 x 2 on the outside....

Chris

[Martijn Meerts]

Remember that 280 is below Tomix's recommended minimum. I know for a fact that the Tomix Dr. Yellow and 700 series Hikari Rail Star will go through 280 without problems. Kato's 800 series also has no problems with 280. However, the newer Tomix 0 series with the power conducting couplers will not go through 280.

[Samurai_Chris]

Remember that 280 is below Tomix's recommended minimum. I know for a fact that the Tomix Dr. Yellow and 700 series Hikari Rail Star will go through 280 without problems. Kato's 800 series also has no problems with 280. However, the newer Tomix 0 series with the power conducting couplers will not go through 280.

Mate, I only plan on running the 800 Series Tsubame, and the 500 Series on on this set up.. Maybe at some stage the N700.. (But I doubt it any time soon....)

Chris

[David]

From my own experience the Kato 800 Tsubame doesn't like 280 curves (Kato states 315 as the minimum). While it can technically make it through the curve, the coupler can't expand enough so the cars are pulled into the curve, just short of the wheels leaving the outside rail. I'll echo what others have said in that you really want 12" curves as a minimum for running Shinkansen. Even then they look a bit silly - if at all possible you want to add easements to your curves. With an easement you start the curve with a 15 degree section of a large radius (like 541, or even the 10 degree 610) and transition into your tighter curve. While the cars are still at extreme angles to each other once inside the curves, it removes the far more noticible jerking motion where each car entering the curve looks like it's being thrown to one side.

Edit: Looking closely, I notice that all of your 90/135/180 curves are hidden inside tunnels (intentional?). If that's the case then ignore my comments about easements and use whatever minimum radius you choose (though I would still recommend the 317).

[bill937ca]

The curves in you're drawing look really tight to me.  Curves on train lines are usually long gentle curves not abrupt 90 degree curves or U turns.

I would suggest 317-45 with a couple of 354-45 curves for Shinkansen trains.  Tighter curves are really more typical of conventional lines operating at slower speeds.  As to how to do the measurements, you can use AnyRail software. The free download allows you to create a plan of up to 50 pieces of track and there is a Tomix track library, and a ruler function which will allow to measure spaces.

http://www.anyrail.com/index_en.html

[CaptOblivious]

With 280/317 radius curves all around, you will need a rectangular space approximately 68" x 96" (see attachment).
The long right (as in angle) leg comprises 6X280mm and 1x18mm sections; the short right leg 3x280mm and 1x140mm sections; the hypotenuse 7x280mm sections. The right angle comprises 2x 280-45 and 317-45 curves (the -45 indicates 45º); the obtuse angle 2x 280-45, 2x 317-45, 2x 280-15, and 2x 317-15; the acute angle is 3x 280-45, 3x 317-280 and 1x 280-15 an 1x 317-15.

[CaptOblivious]

Here's one that's a little truer to your drawing. Total dimensions are about 105" x 50"

Long right leg = 7 x 280mm straights
Short right leg = 2 x 280mm straights
hypotenuse = 7 x 280mm + 1 x 70mm straights

right angle = 2x 280/317-45
obtuse angle = 2 x 280/317-45 + 1 x 280/317-15
acute angle = 3 x 280/317-45 + 2 x 280/317-15 + one 33mm straight set such that it is parallel to the short right leg.

[KenS]

It's very tempting in a first layout to try to push the boundaries and use sharp curves, steep grades and other compromises to fit the track you want in the space you have.  I'll say, from experience, don't do it.

While it may work when you do that, it might not work smoothly. And somewhere down the road you'll find some train you want to run that won't work. And the result will be frustration with the trains, the layout and yourself.

I built my first railroad, an HO freight shortline, with 18" curves and one really steep grade/curve combo to get a branch to a higher elevation, despite advice that 18" was really to tight for a "real" model railroad.  That seemed arbitrary to me, and I read a few things that suggested it was fine with the shorter cars I planned to run. Mostly it worked, but that grade/curve derailed a number of my lighter/longer cars (particularly some tank cars I wanted to use for an industry on it, and which were hard to add weight to).  There was also one loco with a plow that couldn't go up it because the plow was too low.  And I had problems when I wanted to use some long flat cars that didn't operate reliably on 18" curves. And eventually I wanted to add a commuter rail operation, and the coaches wouldn't go around an 18" curve at all (I think they would have had problems with 24").

The "conventional wisdom" about track design can seem arbitrary and unnecessary, and it's certainly worth viewing with a bit of skepticism. But it largely represents years of experience by thousands of modelers who all made similar mistakes.

I don't have experience with either Tomix trains or finetrack, but Shinkansen cars are fairly long by Japanese N-scale standards. When I built my second Unitrack layout (following an initial tabletop one) I used the largest curves I could for the Shinkansen line (381/414 in my case).  That was partly to allow me to fit a tighter radius local line (315/348) inside the curve, partly to give me a visually broad curve for the trains to sweep around, and partially to ensure I'd never have a train I couldn't run on it.

Doing that put some limits on what I could do, and a few times I was tempted to compromise.  But in the end I didn't, and I'm glad of that. I'm expecting to get years of fun out of this, and trouble-free operation is going to be important for that.

[Kumo]

Trains are so nice in a curve (especially Shinaknsen and especially on wide tracks), why not show at least one of your three curves?! :-)

Another thing: I own the latest Tomix 0 series that I got on the starter set and it runs perfectly fine on the 280/45 curves given with! :-)

[cteno4]

chris,

one thing to think about if you do a corner layout like this is how you will reach back into the corner to work on things or rescue trains, etc. most folks can lean out 3' and do some work, but past that it gets really tough and you need to resort to either a trapeze to hang from (seriously i have done this on large architectural models) or one of those carts you can wheel over the layout that you lay on (expensive and bulky), or have a hatch in the back some where but those can be tough around your scenery to hide.

of course this is all moot if you are not up against walls in the corner (ie free standing in the center of the room) or can pull the whole thing out from the corner to work on things.

cheers

jeff

[Samurai_Chris]

Thanks guys, all of you..

When I designed this plan. It was to be a guide only, and so I am willing to work on, and compromise with the corners..

The only stipulation will be that the main strait be either 6-8 S280 long. The rest of it can be worked on, as long as I have the 90 degree set up at the top, and the main strait sits in somewhat as designed.. I can go a little bigger if needed..

Also. I plan to only run an 6 car 800, and an 8 car 500... Not into the older style Shinkansens or the long 16 car trains, as it is overkill for a small area...

What I don't get is why the starter sets only give you C280 pieces if Shinkansens don't really like them? But thats just me..

As for the corners I am thinking of just using single track to save on cost, so only the straits will be Shinkansen track.. I also want to have this on one level that will be raised over the board. So there will be no change in grade....

Captain, I enjoyed looking at the work you put into those images. It sheds a whole new light on what I will need to use....

Chris

[Samurai_Chris]

Here's one that's a little truer to your drawing. Total dimensions are about 105" x 50"

Long right leg = 7 x 280mm straights
Short right leg = 2 x 280mm straights
hypotenuse = 7 x 280mm + 1 x 70mm straights

right angle = 2x 280/317-45
obtuse angle = 2 x 280/317-45 + 1 x 280/317-15
acute angle = 3 x 280/317-45 + 2 x 280/317-15 + one 33mm straight set such that it is parallel to the short right leg.

Capt.. What would we be looking at if I made the front strait and rear strait just 6 x S280?

I like your plan above, but wondering if it would be easier to go with 6 piece straits?

Cheers, Chris

[Samurai_Chris]

chris,

one thing to think about if you do a corner layout like this is how you will reach back into the corner to work on things or rescue trains, etc. most folks can lean out 3' and do some work, but past that it gets really tough and you need to resort to either a trapeze to hang from (seriously i have done this on large architectural models) or one of those carts you can wheel over the layout that you lay on (expensive and bulky), or have a hatch in the back some where but those can be tough around your scenery to hide.

of course this is all moot if you are not up against walls in the corner (ie free standing in the center of the room) or can pull the whole thing out from the corner to work on things.

cheers

jeff

Mate, I am thinking of a removable top. Or some sort of access that can be removed also...

[cteno4]

Mate, I am thinking of a removable top. Or some sort of access that can be removed also...

chirs,

might be a lot easier if you think about just having the whole layout on wheels. either just build your legs with some wheels on them or use a few roll around carts to set the layout on top (and get some storage to boot) of so you can pull it away from the wall easily to work on. hatches or removable tops can be hard to build into your scenery well and you end up being a contortionist to get into them and work from them. then you realize you forgot something and no one else is around and you have to shimmy out to get it! also if there is space in the room you may want to have it out in the center of the room to see it from all sides now and then. can give you some other interesting angles to see the layout from and do more scenes than just the diagonal edge view.

sorry speaking from experience working on the really large 3/4" scale exhibit models where i had to lean over, hang above or crawl inside them to work on them, was a pain in the big patute! gave everyone in the office a lot of laughs seeing this 6' 4" guy flying, contorted or balled up in the big models! i use to use 4'x8' tables bolted together to build them on and i finally just put wheels on the 4x4 legs and then if i had to really tear into them i would unbolt the tables and separate the sections. still had to go back in when reassembled and patch up the joints but was a lot easier to do that if i had major work to do inside.

might also think about making your big top piece in a couple of pieces that bolt together into movable sized pieces. just try to break the tracks near the joints. you can do your scenery over them, but if you ever have to move the layout you can always just crack the scenery along the joint. wiring the same way, just use some screw terminals so you can break wiring easily into sections w/o having to start clipping wires. bit more work, but makes trouble shooting and later modifying easier by just changing the terminal things are screwed into.

im a huge fan of modular and mobile these days. i figure if i ever were to start the hard built in layout we would end up moving! had a few friends have this happen to them, very sad to see a layout ripped up like that as the new owners rarely want it!

have fun!

cheers

jeff

[Samurai_Chris]

Thanks, you have been very helpful!

I have been thinking about the assembly also, and decided that it would have to be built with dis-mountable sections.. You are correct. I can't see myself wanting to get stuck with a large platform bolted into the corner of the room. I was also thinking about retractable legs for storage and moving later. But the wheels idea is a great one, and will definitely add that to the "to-do" list....

Chris

[cteno4]

yeah bolting things down to me means murphy will say time to move!

retractable legs are nice, but can be a bit of work and expense to get sturdy and also to attach wheels to. for moving/storage all you really need is to have them easily removable. if you go with using some sort of carts for your support then you dont have to really attach them at all to the layout, just set it on top and maybe put a few little stop blocks around them to just keep them from sliding. all depends on how much construction you want to do.

folding sawhorses also work really well as a cheap and fast and mobile alternative, but cant move them easily. you have to lift up and move saw horses a lot and takes 2 or 3 people and fiddling. another option is to set the layout on a couple of folding tables, but then it can be hard to get at the underside of the layout in places to snake wiring out and such and also hard to put wheels on.

the first jrm layout was 2'x4' modules with 1x3 framing around 1" pink styrene insulation foam and just bolted together (later we used plates to lock the layout together with screws as it was easier when we cut the framing down to 1x2). then set the big layout (4'x14') on top of folding sawhorses. also built one of the club members layouts like this (4'x10')and set it on top of his dining room table. later he moved it to the living room and we knocked it down to 4'x6' with three modules bolted together and bolted simple metal legs to a couple of cross pieces. he just had his against the wall so he could just lift and swing out one end at a time. finding inexpensive metal legs was a little challenge, firs were going to be wheeled ones but those all proved too expensive. some metal legs have adjustment bolt feet that can be removed and wheels screwed in.

cheers

jeff

cheers

jeff

[Samurai_Chris]

To be honest, if I didn't have the problem of (maybe) moving back to Australia at some time. I would go whole hog on the lay-out..

It's alot to think about, and takes away from the enjoyment of building something, when in the back of your head you know that it will have to be moved at some stage..

[cteno4]

chris,

well if you make it in sections that can then stack up in those oveseas moving crates (like 1m x 1m x 2m size) then you could take it home. design the layout with extension points so if you do go home with it you can then use it as a starting point and grow out from there.

another option is to just make a simple table top then just lay unitrak or fine track on the table and dont nail it down. then just use colored construction paper under the track to do some perceived scenery. you can even do small scenery chunks that lift off. this is the method we used for the first jrm layout

http://japanrailmodelers.org/pages/layout/layout.1.0.html
http://japanrailmodelers.org/pages/photos.html#layout1.0

this is the kind of perceived scenery that a lot of japanese layouts use that cant stay set up all the time. one of the jrm club members has a very large basement layout like this thats all unitrak not nailed down and just this kind of perceived scenery. works great and is a very impressive layout. might be a way to get going w/o worry of loosing a lot if you have moving plans in the near future! its a really fast and easy way to get started and also fiddle with layout ideas w/o committing to a plan right away. lets you play with ideas to see what kind of running and scenes you might want to do on a permanent layout later.

ive finally decided my basement layout will be in modules like this. not standardized ones, but ones that can break apart and easily move out of the house and crate up. only semi permanent thing may be the support framework, but ill screw that together so it could even come apart easily.

cheers

jeff

[Samurai_Chris]

Thanks Jeff.. I have been taking on board everything you have said..

As for where I am at the moment. I have the track together as CaptOblivious designed and it is up and running. It doesn't look like much at the moment. But there are no mountains and tunnels installed yet. And I have to get a wide S280 piece for the end of the back strait. The parts with single track will be eventually covered..

I ended up having to use a few 18.5mm and 33mm sections to get the C317-15 and C280-15 pieces to join up, but it all worked out well..

I just wanted to ask a few things.. I am finding that the Shinkansen 500 seems to be a little sensitive to the power on the track. I find that my Shinkansen 800 Tsubame seems to run a lot smoother at slow speeds, where by the 500 Nozomi splutters and farts particularly on the right angle corner, and the acute angle bend.. The 800 Tsubame take the track like a champ! It is not because of the bend, as it has plenty of clearance and actually both trains take them well. But it just seems like that part of track just isn't getting the power it needs?

I am however running the 500 Nozomi on the outside track, and the 800 Tsubame on the inside track if that makes any difference. Or if those sections are simply a little dusty and dirty? I really don't know.. The lights on the 500 Nozomi also flicker a little at lower speeds which has me wondering if the motor is any good, or is this just a design thing with that set. Or if the outside track will always tend to be a little longer to get current around?

Lastly I also notice that the 500 Nozomi is quite noisy, as in a buzzing noise when at higher speeds compared to the 800 Tsubame.. Is this again just me, or is this just a noisy train? I am running the set at the moment on a hard wooden floor, so I can understand that the on track noise is going to be louder than if run on carpet or a soft underlay. But I am learning the art of running at replicated speeds to the scale, so its all a bit of a learning curve at the moment also..

Anyway, here is a pic of where my track is at the moment.. I am using an upstairs room that store stuff in for the time being so forgive the mess...

[Bernard]

Chris - it sounds like the 500 needs a good oil and cleaning. Check and see if there is dirt, grit, etc. on the trucks.
I would also open it up and oil (small amount) all moving parts in the motor car.

The coupling system is very different on the Tomix 800 and the Kato 500. The 800 is more forgiving on the curves and is more flexible between cars. You have the right idea in running the 500 on the outer loop.

[CaptOblivious]

Also, check the wheels for crud! Some cotton swabs and rubbing alcohol will do the trick. The track might also be pretty cruddy too, I'd clean the tops of the rails with the same (and then invest in a Tomix cleaning car, and a loco to haul it, perhaps a Micro Ace 912-series diesel (used for maintenence on shinkansen lines)?

[KenS]

If the curves didn't quite meet up, and the track is under a bit of stress because it's angled at the rail joiner, you could be having some electrical contact problems, and I'd expect those to be worse on the outer rails (where there's likely a larger gap).  Try running a redundant feeder into the curve where you're having problems.

[Samurai_Chris]

Bernard thanks.. The 500 is actually from the 4 piece Tomix starter set... I plan on getting the extra four car set at some stage...

Capt: I will do that. I will check everything when I get home from work this afternoon.. I have been looking at a cleaning car, but with the price, I wanted to hold off until I actually started to get somewhere with the layout first. But definitely have looked into it.. I have a Micro-Ace 817 on order so that will be my next month set of goodies to pay for...

Ken: Again, good advice.. It's all a learning curve at the moment!

Chris

[Samurai_Chris]

Ok, been playing around with some more ideas with layouts, and so decided to share something I have come up with..

The grey area is the Shinkansen track That will be raised. And the red will be the local network at ground level..

I will be starting out on the tunnel setup at some stage over the weekend..

[Mudkip Orange]

Layouts are frigging impossible to move.

You might try figuring that the board is a write-off, and building small scenery modules that sit on top of it in between that would be easy to box up and move. You already know the track is portable - just unsnap and go. JRM does this to an extent with their club layout.

[Samurai_Chris]

Yeah, I have already decided to build it in section that will be removable.. The only structures built will be the tunnel mountain sections that will also be removable.. The rest of the track for now will just be snapped together...

If and when the time comes that we decide to stay in Japan for good, or head back to Australia. Then I will build my layout to the way I truely want it...

[CaptOblivious]

I can't make out how the shinkansen tracks are supposed to mate up: THey are at rather different angles to each other...

[Samurai_Chris]

Yes, that is just a guide.. I plan on re doing it with the correct angles before I start building for sure!...

[spacecadet]

I can't make out how the shinkansen tracks are supposed to mate up: THey are at rather different angles to each other...

It's a ramp - they're gonna jump to their deaths :)

[Samurai_Chris]

Yeah, with Keanu Reeves driving!

[Samurai_Chris]

Ok gents.. Still in the design phase, and the more I look at, the more I want to change it..

I have looked at some others projects and although I wanted to keep mine relatively simple, but I have realized that if I want to run more than 2 or 3 Shinkansens on the Shinkansen line. And some extra sets on the local line, I may need a station section to sit the idle trains...

I have scanned a picture. Cant see the whole thing. But everything mates up, but I have added the station section on the left hand side. This section will be fully opne due to ease of access, but will be behind a hill/yama...

Please look at the red circle on the blue Shinkansen line.. I need to get two sets of lines to cross over and put them into the station area.. I also need help with the local line also...

[disturbman]

Well, to sit trains you can either have a station or an (hidden) yard. For the Shinkansen station I'll recommend the classic two way through + two siddings design which is so classical on Shinkansen line.

[Samurai_Chris]

Well, to sit trains you can either have a station or an (hidden) yard. For the Shinkansen station I'll recommend the classic two way through + two siddings design which is so classical on Shinkansen line.

Cheers.. I want to keep to Tomix, so do you have any part numbers that I could look at?

Chris

[CaptOblivious]

You want a pair of left-hand 541mm radius turnouts (the standard Tomix turnout), a left-handed 30-degree cross over, a 99m straight and two 18mm straights to make the attached configuration. Someone else might be able to suggest something more clever, though.

[David]

You want a pair of left-hand 541mm radius turnouts (the standard Tomix turnout), a left-handed 30-degree cross over, a 99m straight and two 18mm straights to make the attached configuration. Someone else might be able to suggest something more clever, though.

I really wish Kato made a "small" 15 degree crossing so you could do this with Unitrack with 33mm spacing and #4 switches (right now it can only be done with #6 switches and 49.5mm spacing).

[Samurai_Chris]

You want a pair of left-hand 541mm radius turnouts (the standard Tomix turnout), a left-handed 30-degree cross over, a 99m straight and two 18mm straights to make the attached configuration. Someone else might be able to suggest something more clever, though.

Captain. Thank you for your help...

That might just do the trick! I am actually considering having the outside line break off, and leave the inside rail to continue on, with a cross over on the track at some point to put the inside train on to the outside track.. I only decided to build a section to host idle sitting trains when I am not running them on the track. So the layout doesn't need to be too fancy!

Cheers, Chris

[Samurai_Chris]

Ok, I just cleared out the room that I will build my layout in, and I have taken advice from many people regarding how to do it..

Although it wont be full authentic, I have decided to build it in section with removable mountains/tunnels ect.. I will find a way to hide seams, but I want it movable.. I am also building it on the floor, and so will be easier to put on legs at a later date.. I will start with a wooden base with cork on top...

Now, I have posted many drawings, and after moving the layout to the part of the room I want to put it. My Shinksen line fits easily, but my Local layout will need to be redesigned, as will my break off point to host my idle trains.. Not a problem, but will need some more thinking...

Captain, I will go with your idea for both my Shinkansen and Local lines for the break off, but it will now have to come down another 90* instead of at the end of the back strait.. I am happy to have that corner changed in order to accept the change and fix the tighter radius to help the Shinken take that corner.. I just worry how it will effect the other end of that main strait?

Chris

[Mudkip Orange]

You want a pair of left-hand 541mm radius turnouts (the standard Tomix turnout), a left-handed 30-degree cross over, a 99m straight and two 18mm straights to make the attached configuration. Someone else might be able to suggest something more clever, though.

FIFTEEN!

I know that's what you meant, since it's in the track plan - but yeah, in case anyone's actually building a parts list off this thread, you want the LH 15-degree crossover.

The 30 only comes in one-size-fits-all anyway (72.5mm on all legs)

[Samurai_Chris]

You want a pair of left-hand 541mm radius turnouts (the standard Tomix turnout), a left-handed 30-degree cross over, a 99m straight and two 18mm straights to make the attached configuration. Someone else might be able to suggest something more clever, though.

FIFTEEN!

I know that's what you meant, since it's in the track plan - but yeah, in case anyone's actually building a parts list off this thread, you want the LH 15-degree crossover.

The 30 only comes in one-size-fits-all anyway (72.5mm on all legs)

Noted.....

[Samurai_Chris]

Ok, now with the move to Australia a go.. I just went and picked up some Tomix Fine Track Viaduct cornered sections 317 354? 45 (sorry, left the box in the car) And heeded your warnings starting with Martin about the curve radius..

Now that I will have more room to play with, I would like to go with something similar, but feel that I may just end up with an oval track if the idea becomes too big for comfort..... Any suggestions?