N Japanese Terminus Layout

[Claude_Dreyfus]

A while I go I hinted that I might be restarting a personal project once the bulk of the work on our club layout was complete. This time has come, and on Friday I took delivery of two 4' x 1' 6'' baseboards - with legs. When assembled they make a surface area of 8' x 1' 6''; plenty of space for a nice-sized layout.

Ideas are still very much being formulated, however a small terminus station with carriage sidings looks to be on the cards...certainly there is enough space to make something interesting.

Below are a few pictures of the boards erected, with a couple of trains set out to give an indication of the available space...

[Bernard]

Nice bench work Claude. Is this room where the layout will go? If I remember correctly in your new house you were thinking of using the garage for your layout?

[Claude_Dreyfus]

Nice bench work Claude. Is this room where the layout will go? If I remember correctly in your new house you were thinking of using the garage for your layout?

Sadly not  This has been temporarily set up in our dining room as Mrs Dreyfus is away on business. Normally it will live in the shed beside the house...

[Bernard]

Boy, is Mrs. Dreyfus in for a surprise when she returns. Do you think she'll notice the layout in the dining room?
 

[Claude_Dreyfus]

Boy, is Mrs. Dreyfus in for a surprise when she returns. Do you think she'll notice the layout in the dining room?
 

  Fortunatley, for my well-being anyhow, it will be safely packed away before she returns...

I'm currently thinking hard about plans, in view of the available space. Below is a rough sketch, although this is specifically for a diesel branch, and I'm wondering if further mods may be in order to enable short electric train to operate as well - my class 115 and 313 currently spring to mind...

[disturbman]

I'll be following this, there is not so much terminus layouts around here. I hope to see soon some pictures of your tryouts and temporary set ups... as well as and some videos documenting the operational side of things. 

[CaptOblivious]

This looks like a perfect candidate for constructing a Japanese version of Minories
http://www.carendt.com/scrapbook/page85b/index.html

[Claude_Dreyfus]

Ah yes, CJF.

As mentioned in that article, there probably is not a modeller in the UK whom Cyril Freezer has not had some influence upon. To be honest I cannot think of one individual who has had a bigger influence on the development of model railways. Aside from the innumerable track plans that can be seen time and time again in UK models, he was one of the main drivers for moving model railways away from the two extremes of either a simple train set, or serious model engineering, to the sort of modelling we take for granted now.

He espoused good reliable running, with a sense of reality within both operations and appearence.

I have lost count of the number of Minories derivations there have been, and yes all my small terminus plans can trace their ancestory back to his designs...albeit with an attempted Japanese twist.

To add a little more detail to my ideas; this model actually forms part of a small layout challenge on another model railway forum I, and a number of others on here, am a member of - RMWeb. This competition is known as the 2010 challenge, and essentially it covers any gauge or subject so long as the board area does not exceed 2010 square inches. The area I have to play with is 1728 square inches...

As this year is the forum's 5th Birthday, extra points are awarded if you keep to a maximum of five switches. Looks like I won't be keeping to that in total, however the intention is for a maximum of 5 for the whole visible section - there will be two others in the hidden sidings. That means that the plan posted earlier will need to be modified again...but that's fine. Some of my designs take years to tweak and formulate, although ironically Yamanouchi Oshika was devised in an evening with a pile of track and some empty baseboards...

I'll keep having a play with ideas, however the basic premise of a small terminus - now looking as if it will have three platforms - and small freight yard will remain. I like the idea of having the sidings in front of the hidden sidings...it's a better use of the space available.

The other common theme is the lack of run-round loop. Close examination of Yamanouchi Oshika shows that there is not a single run-round loop on the viewing side...indeed, only one of several layouts I have constructed have ever possessed one. There will be no loop on this layout, which will lead to some interesting challenges when shunting! But isn't that half the fun of operating...

Also the intention is to exhibit this layout once constructed. I will always argue that any layout constructed should be portable, even if it is the intention not to move it...house moves etc. can lead to years of work being lost of you cannot shift the thing. I've always been a bit of a sucker for exhibiting...a kind of 'Look what I've done Mum!' pride, that is if it looks good and operates well...it gives me a buzz; I like playing trains; I like talking about model railways.

[scott]

I'm wondering if further mods may be in order to enable short electric train to operate as well

Yes.   


I'm looking forward to seeing what you come up with, Claude. Might try something similar.

[scott]

Claude--I forgot to ask: on the plan you attached above, where are the hidden sidings? At the top right?

[bikkuri bahn]

Claude, it looks like you have a nice "acorn" there that has all the possibility to be a nice operation.  Personally I prefer the British approach to home model railways, which seems to favor compact and practical, yet realistic linear operation, over the North American and European (and Japanese, for that matter) tendency towards "tail chasers".  Though perhaps this is an outcome of cramped hobby spaces.  Anyway, I wish more modelers in Japan would look into building operational terminus layouts (or through stations w/fiddles/staging)- certainly there are many examples of static dioramas that are stunning in their execution here.

I'm wondering if further mods may be in order to enable short electric train to operate as well - my class 115 and 313 currently spring to mind...

Being emus, I don't think much modification would be required, other than making sure your platforms can accommodate typical consists and adding simulated catenary.  I don't know how much you like to model signaling, but with emus, which are fitted with ATS, simulated color light signals would be nice.  With a diesel only operation, tablet working would be adequate, and semaphore signaling used, or eliminated altogether.

[Claude_Dreyfus]

Claude--I forgot to ask: on the plan you attached above, where are the hidden sidings? At the top right?

Yes, in that plan the hidden sidings are on the top right.

[Claude_Dreyfus]

This time I have a question...

It is similar in parts to questions I have posed on here in the past and essentially deals with small electric locomotives.

The design of this layout is to have a small three road freight yard. Normally it will be diesel-operated, and that's easy...I already have a number of DE10s for this purpose. What I would like, however, is a small electric locomotive for some operational interest. I'm not looking at one of those tiny 4-wheelers that seem to be around, more something along the lines of an ED62. Research suggests that the Tomix ED62 is as rare as rocking-horse droppings, and pretty much impossible to get hold of. I don't understand a word of Japanese, and my computor set-up is somewhat arcaic so I cannot even upload Japanese characters...this essentially rules out about 90% of the results in Google - which also won't translate for me!

I may be able to get hold of an ED61, however it looks like this class was withdrawn back in the 1980s, which is a little early for me. The ED73 and 75 I suspect are a little too northern for me...I am looking for something more towards the JR central area.

Whilst I could run something like an EF64, and could possibly get away with it, it is a little too big in the context of the layout size. If there is nothing available at the moment (research suggests this may well be the case) then I'll have to wait...and keep my eyes open.

Anyone any thoughts?

[bill937ca]

Here's a few Japanese terminals, unfortunately all passenger.

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Rail_Tracks_map_Tobu_Kashiwa_Station.svg

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Rail_Tracks_map_Kintetsu_Nagoya_Station.svg

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Rail_Tracks_map_Meitetsu_Central_Japan_Int%27l_Airport_Stn.svg

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Rail_Tracks_map_Meitetsu_Shin_Kani_Station.svg

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Nankai_Hagoromo_station_track_map.svg

More plans here:

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Track_maps_of_stations_in_Japan

These would probably have to be condensed for your layout.

[disturbman]

You can try to find a Chichibu Deki 300 (http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10055614). If this train has something to do with the city of Chichibu it will then geographically fit with your JR Central area.

There is one loc on Yahoo Auctions right now.

Westfallen did show us this loc here: http://www.jnsforum.com/index.php/topic,2261.msg21503.html#msg21503

[westfalen]

You could model a station where the private railway exchanges freight with JR, a smaller version of Yorii on the Chichibu, although it's not a terminus for either line.

[Fenway Park]

Hi,

The ED61s were all rebuilt into the ED62s for the Iida Line.  The ED62s replaced the mixture of ED19s and ED18s on freight workings. The Micro Ace ED19 is too long. The ED18 is available from Wellington Models but is probably too early for your period.

ED73s were on Kyushu while the ED75s were AC only. 

The ED17 is also available but I cannot remember when these were withdrawn by JNR/JR. Of the brown electrics the EF15s were the last of the freight types to be withdrawn. There is a new Kato version for 2010.

Private electric locos have been offered by Micro Ace as has been pointed out earlier.

Hope this helps.

[Claude_Dreyfus]

Thanks for the comments...

Well, the boards have now been set up in their rightful home, and a short trip down to my local model shop resulted me returning with a few lengths of track, four points and some Kato platforms.

The decision has been taken to use code 80 track, as this looks a little more 'narrow' in comparison with code 55 - ideal as I am trying to depict 3'6'' gauge track. The station will now be a three platform affair, with two roads electrified...you can see that the idea is slowly evolving away from my original premise, which is fine...we are still in the planning phase... There will be a three siding yard to provide a little more operational interest. To start with this will be diesel; however when a suitable electric loco becomes available the catenery may go up here. I'm waiting to see if Tomix will re-release the ED62, which is essentially what I have in mind.

Currently the track has just been placed upon the boards, as I refine the plan.

The first picture is an overall view of the boards. The two-car KiHa 110 is occupying one of the two roads that will have catenery...

Looking the other way, the point in the foreground will be in the fiddleyard, whilst the track running beside, to the right, will feed the freight yard.

[Fenway Park]

Tomix have removed the ED62 and others with the older type chassis from their catalogue. You may have to be patient or seek a secondhand version.

[Bernard]

I have a feeling Mrs. Dreyfus came home and wanted the diner room back. 
I guess it wasn't had to move and the shed looks pretty roomy!

[KenS]

Looks like a good base for a layout. If, as seems likely, the shed is subject to humidity changes over the course of the year, you may want to seal the wood of the table top and frame, to limit the amount it can expand/contract. Otherwise you could have future problems with track alignment. A couple of coats of a good housepaint primer (exterior or interior) should do it.

[Claude_Dreyfus]

It's been a while since I last updated on this.

I am in a bit of a chicken and egg situation here in terms of track clearances, switches etc. What I have needed to do is construct the station and platforms, however not fix them down, before the track gets put down. I have sufficient points and trackwork for the station area.

I have used the standard Kato rural station with platforms, and over the course of construction I have found that, not suprisingly, it is designed for Unitrack and therefore the platforms are too high for the PECO code 80 I am using...so to remedy this I am having to use a cork underlay to raise the trackbed.

The Kato station is a very impressive model, although I am wondering if the plaforms are just a little too narrow. Hopefully the accompanying pictures will give a good impression of what I am aiming to acheive.

Now I am happy with platforms etc. (I should add that they still need a lot of work paininting/detailing and so on) I'm gearing up for tracklaying. Firstly, however, I'm following Ken's suggestion and will be giving the boards a good coat of something to seal the wood...

[CaptOblivious]

Just a quick nitpick: If this is a terminus, isn't the overhead walkway overkill?

Otherwise, I think this is going to be a very nice-looking layout!

[Toni Babelony]

Looks like it can be converted later to a through station, 'mirite? Looks very nice. Japanese platforms can be really narrow though. Especially if there aren't any kiosks or waiting rooms on it.

[Claude_Dreyfus]

You're right, the footbridge may be a little overkill for the type of station. It was added primarily for visual purposes...there will be an end board along the side here and it will go some way to hiding the backscene here. The idea is that this used to be a through station, cut short to a terminus following one of JR's many closures; the footbridge just remained...

I have intended it for possible extension to a through station at some point in the future, or at least given myself the option if I want.

[KenS]

I'd seen that Kato station in a box in the store, but it looks even better than I thought it would. I don't think the platforms look too narrow.

Have you thought about what kind of scenery is going to go around it? Village/town center, rural/agricultural fields, or something else?

[Lawrence]

Just a quick nitpick: If this is a terminus, isn't the overhead walkway overkill?

Well I guess the pax will have to cross the line somehow and it certainly adds to the scene. 

Will look even better once painted and detailed as you said, very nice little part of the layout

[Claude_Dreyfus]

I'd seen that Kato station in a box in the store, but it looks even better than I thought it would. I don't think the platforms look too narrow.

Have you thought about what kind of scenery is going to go around it? Village/town center, rural/agricultural fields, or something else?

These pictures have been taken from the operators side of the layout, obviously meaning that the viewing side will be the side currently facing the wall. The station will be situated in a small town, which will be situated in the area behind the station building. This will be on a slightly higher level and there will be a retaining wall running along the back of the plaform with the fencing, although only to the right of the building as seen in the pictures.

The landscape will be 'undulating', with the town being situated within the Japanese Alps.

[Krackel Hopper]

hey hey,

I like the design so far!

It will cost you a small fortune, but WorldCraft is releasing a number of small electric locos.  ED501/2, Deki 108s and EF10's.. in blue and brown liveries.

Are the Kato rural platforms from the basic (23-130) kit or do you also have the extension set (23-131) added on?  I've been looking at this set for possible T-trak applications but with no itemized description of 23-130 I'm still trying to get an idea of how many platforms sections come with that basic package.

Jon

[Claude_Dreyfus]

A successful weekend has just been had. Mrs Dreyfus' brother has come down from the wilds of the North to rebuild our computor, doubling the memory and adding all sorts of flash new technical bits as well as setting up Mrs Dreyfus' new iPhone...

Whilst this has been going on, I have been in the shed working on the layout . Firstly the boards were given a good coating of satin black paint..this was left overnight to dry (picture 1)...

Today, I set about laying the track, making sure (a) the correct types of fishplates were fitted, and (b) locations were marked out for ther fitting of point motors and wiring. To start with, the cork underlay was layed down. Once I was happy with the location of the station in relation to the front and back of the boards, the underlay was glued into position. Following on from this, the track laying started; making sure we had a correct distance from the platform edges.

So far I have completed the station area, as well as the JRE line approach from the fiddleyard. The third sector line platform and approach has also been completed, however the approach is only down as far as the junction for the shed and stabling yard.

To complete the yard, I'll probably need another two points, although I should be okay for track. Hopefully this should be complete within the next couple of weeks and then attention will turn to wiring the thing up!

In answer to an earlier question about the station, this is made up of three kits; Station Building 23-220; rural station 23-130 and extension 23-131. In addition, the footbridge is 23-224. A number of the sub structures have yet to be built, and there will be a couple of lengths of platform left over. All will need the attention of a paint brush before they are fully completed...

[Claude_Dreyfus]

At last! After a number of weeks, tracklaying is finally complete...I purchased the final point and couple of lengths of track this morning; not to mention the obligatory fishplates, pins etc. that I always seem to run low on.

Drilling has started on the electrical feeds, and the intention is to split the boards over the next week or so to enable wiring to start....the bit I'm dreading!

A couple of pictures now:

The first shows the newly completed fiddleyard - the four tracks on the right - as well as the stabling sidings for the third-sector line; this also includes stabling for the JRF loco that brings the transfer freight in.

The second is another general view, showing the completed trackwork.

[KenS]

I'm puzzled by the switch layout in the middle. it would appear that the front two fiddle-yard tracks can access any platform, but the back two fiddle tracks as well as the stabling sidings can only access the rear platform track. That makes sense if you want to treat the two halves of the fiddle yard as representations of two separate lines.

But since they are "off stage" in a sense, that seems like an unnecessary limitation.  Wouldn't it be better to also have a link from the lead to the rear fiddle tracks to the lead to the front two?  You would seem to have room if you moved the stabling connection a bit more towards the center of the boards.  That would leave the stabling tracks dedicated to the rear platform, but would allow any platform to be reached from any fiddle track, giving you more flexibility.

Is there not enough space, or is there a reason you want to have this limitation in place?

[Claude_Dreyfus]

Interesting observations regarding the track layout.

You are correct in your first comment. Essentially the two fiddle yard tracks to the right serve all platforms; these are the JRE lines. Passenger trains will run directly to the two main platforms, the link to the third is for the freight trains, which changes locos in the branch platform before reversing up the branch line.

The remaining two fiddle yard roads are for the third-sector branch, which uses the third platform and is also serviced by the stabling yard - this yard will also be used to stable the JRF loco whilst the freight train is working up the branch.

I wanted to keep the two elements distinct and separate, especially in the fiddle yard. This layout is designed for exhibition use, so the restriction is aimed to keep the two sections running independently. I have used a 'shared yard' approach on a previous club layout, where it was serving a main line and branch and it can lead to confusion when operating...perversley I like to throw in limitations when it helps to make operation more interesting.

There is also the element of space, or more importantly baseboard design. The layout is constructed on two 4' x 1' 6'' boards, and the joint between the two sections is between the three station throat points and the access to the stabling point. The point locations are governed not only by the joins, but also the baseboard reinforcement braces that run width-ways along the underside of the boards; these obviously preclude the siting of point motors here.

There is also the visual element here. I wanted to have some, albeit very small, open track. The two tracks to the fiddle yard will vanish into tunnels just before the fiddle yard points, so there is limited space...I wanted especially to have a section of thrid-sector track; another reason why the entrance to the stabling sidings is a little way off from the station.

Hopefully when the scenery starts taking shape it will make a little more sense... 

[harukablue]

I

I wanted to keep the two elements distinct and separate, especially in the fiddle yard. This layout is designed for exhibition use, so the restriction is aimed to keep the two sections running independently. I have used a 'shared yard' approach on a previous club layout, where it was serving a main line and branch and it can lead to confusion when operating...perversley I like to throw in limitations when it helps to make operation more interesting.

Great another Japanese layout on the exhibition circuit, I hope to get my small HO depot completed for 2011 

Lew

[Claude_Dreyfus]

I wanted to keep the two elements distinct and separate, especially in the fiddle yard. This layout is designed for exhibition use, so the restriction is aimed to keep the two sections running independently. I have used a 'shared yard' approach on a previous club layout, where it was serving a main line and branch and it can lead to confusion when operating...perversley I like to throw in limitations when it helps to make operation more interesting.

Great another Japanese layout on the exhibition circuit, I hope to get my small HO depot completed for 2011 

Lew

Perhaps the opportunity to post another layout thread on here...

Hint hint 

[Claude_Dreyfus]

Today has been spent starting the much dreaded wiring. Essentially all this has involved is drilling lots of holes in the baseboard, feeding wires through and soldiering them to the track. There's not a great deal to do, but some how it took me four hours! I also secured the tracks across the baseboard join and cut the track.

Net result of todays activities is a layout that looks no different on the face of it now than it did this morning! However all the droppers are in place, and some sort of wiring diagram will be devised so I can make sense of it all.

Picture below is an overall view of the whole layout. Hopefully by adding the stock, you can seen in context the sort of space I have to play with...

[Bernard]

Claude - It looks great and I love wiring! It's the "dreaded" scenery I'm not wild about.

[KenS]

Net result of todays activities is a layout that looks no different on the face of it now than it did this morning!

That seems to be true of half the things that need to be done on a model railroad.

I probably dislike scenery work more than electrical work, but it's a close race. Both do have their fun, or at least interesting, aspects. But both seem to consist largely of doing the same thing over and over again, with little to show for it until it all comes together in the end.

But that's the payoff: in the end all that work does come together and produce a working railroad.  Either that, or a short circuit sets the scenery on fire and the house burns down. 

[scott]

...and either way you get an impressive result! 

[Claude_Dreyfus]

Interestingly, it is the scenery I am most looking forward to. I particularly enjoy the more 'artistic' side of modelling...

Track-laying is not so bad, but the electrics is a necessary evil that, for me, is to be endured rather than enjoyed... Fortunately the layout is not complicated, deliberately so; I have worked on layouts with more advanced electrics and get thoroughly confused 

[Claude_Dreyfus]

It has been a little while since I last posted on this thread; for a simple reason. Nothing has happened!

Until now that is...

I have mentioned many times before that I am no fan of wiring. I can do it, but not to a great standard, and as the intention is for this layout to not only be for the long-term, but also for exhibition purposes, I want it to be both durable and reliable. To acheive this, I'm being lazy aned passing it over to a club colleague.

By my reckoning, life is too short and a hobby is meant to be enjoyable (I'm rubbish at woodwork, so another couple of club colleagues built the boards), so why spend ages doing soemthing I don't like? ...I spend most of my time doing that at work!    Furthermore, better to pass this to someone who loves that sort of thing (their hobby after all), and when we get to the scenic work on his Z Gauge Swiss layout, I'll repay the favour (he likes scenery as much as I like wiring!).

So hopefully I'll have a really well wired layout, with a smart control panel, within the next few weeks. Getting excited, as once this is done we can press on with the scenery...

[Claude_Dreyfus]

It's been quite a while since anything was updated on here...I have even had the 120 days posting notification!

Anyway, last Wednesday I took delivery of the layout from its winter break in the neighbouring county, where it has been wired up, as well as having a nice new control box fitted. The layout was set up, plugged in and away we went with playing trains having an operating session.

The control box is a flash bit of kit with LEDs indicating the point direction as well as some element of cab control for extra flexibility.


Here, the track plan can be seen clearly, along with the two Gaugemaster 'walk-about' controllers. Very simply, the blue switches are for the points, the grey are isolators, the green are touch-release isolators (you have to hold them across to de-isolate these sections), and the yellow are cab control switches, enabling trains to operate from either controller along these sections for extra flexibility.

The wiring itself looks pretty neat.




I have a few more weeks of playing trains (getting familiar with the controls) before ballasting starts. Still, I was able to run a few things of interest.

[KenS]

Nicely done.

I built a very simlar set of control boxes for my old HO layout (one box per section, four in all).  They worked very well, and were easy to explain to visitors. I'd say you've got a very good foundation to build your railroad now.

And playing with trains, I mean testing  , before you get to ballasting is a good idea.  That way you can be sure the trackwork is solid, and trains run well on it, while it's still easy to rip something out and repair/replace it.  Fixing track after ballast and scenery is down is much more work.

You could also try making some temporary stand-in buildings out of cardboard and tape, to make sure they don't get in the way (in terms of line of sight or being too close to the track) and that the trains look "right" running through the planned arrangement.  I'm a big fan of trying things out before committing to a plan.

[Bernard]

Claude - When I saw the 1st photo I thought it was Ken's layout because the wiring is so precise and neat.
Very nicely done.

I'm also one for testing out track before doing the final touches...the only problem is, one I have trains running it's hard getting back to working on the layout. 

[KenS]

His wiring is neater than mine.

[Bernard]

His wiring is neater than mine.

You haven't see mine....and I have diagrams so I don't get lost. 

[Claude_Dreyfus]

My wiring is truely shocking...and borders on the dangerous; hence getting John to do the wiring for me! 

On a more serious note, many exhibitions now require layouts and their associated equipment to be PAT certified. Althoguh the controllers and extension leads have yet to be tested, the connections and other electrical bits will standup to any scrutiny of this nature.

From a scenic point of view, I have roughly cut a piece of high density foam to fit in the area behind the platforms. There is still some grading to be carried out, and the foam has not been fixed down, however this is the sort of height I am looking at. There will be a concrete wall behind the platforms, with the town at a higher level.

Any thoughts on height and appearence, bearing in mind that although it is currently uniform, it won't stay that way!

[angusmclean]

Claude and others, my following comments are intended not as criticism, but to create an awareness in regards to the use of foam to form hills, buildings or whatever on your layouts. I have been a fire-fighter all my working life, and I have seen just five litres of this stuff smouldering, wreck the complete interior of a multi-storey house, and it didn't do the occupiers lungs much good either, as when we arrived they were coughing up black goo. All walls, ceilings and carpets were coated in thick black soot, when we walked on the blackened carpets, we left clean footprints. A simple guide for safety is not to have any electrical joints or components near the foam, never leave the power on if not in attendance, use plenty of smoke alarms, and shut doors at night. I don't think the hazards associated with using foam are overly risky on a model railway layout, you just need to be aware of the consequences of a malfunction, and take steps to minimise the damage.

Angus

[Claude_Dreyfus]

Thanks for your note of caution Angus.

For many, this foam is a fairly new modelling material, and does have exciting potential. I have heard of its successful use as baseboard material. I would, however, assume that it has the same fire resistant properties as polystyrene and your warning that it gives off lots of nasty gasses when burning does not suprise at all.

In this case, the layout is stored in a shed beside the house, which has not electrical connections...resulting in a very long extension lead running from the house. Net result here is that when ever the layout is left for any length of time this lead is unplugged. Also, the control panel and many of the 'gubbings' (tranformers, controlers etc.) are separate from the main body of the layout.

Although I have not experinced this myself, I have heard tales of layouts overheating and the scenery melting/bursting into flames and it is probably an opportune to time agree that many layouts with their electronics mixed with scenery with flamable paints and other materials are a potential dangerous combination if left unattended whilst plugged in.

[Mudkip Orange]

You know awhile back there was an NMDOT Rail Runner that drove right thru a wildfire.

With a foam layout and some Athearn stock you can replicate this incident IN SCALE!