KATO Decoders

[Bernard]

Has anyone used the new Kato decoders? It looks like they are easy to install and made for Japanese passenger trains. I use lenz & Digitrax decoders but still haven't tried doing the head & tail lights.

[kwt]

I've been trying to find these but seem to only be available in Japan.  They are made by Digitrax.

[Darren Jeffries]

I've been trying to find these but seem to only be available in Japan.  They are made by Digitrax.

Welcome KWT.... Do Hobbysearch Japan do these? It would make sense to find a good source of them as most people seem to have a predomonantly Kato orientated Bullet train fleet.

[Bernard]

Hi kwt,
And welcome to the forum. The KATO decoders are really hard to find and I'm curious get some feedback on them. They look like they are made especially for the KATO Japanese passenger trains because you can get 3 different types. One for the motor, one for the head & tail lights, and one for the interior passenger car lights. Take a look at Newhall Station and see if he carries them and is in the USA.
JNS told you about Hobby Search in Japan and another is Plaza Japan, they used to carry them. If you still can't find them, try the Katousa website or Kato Japan (which you will also find on the Katousa website.)
 
It also looks like from what I can tell, it's more like a slide in decoder without soddering. I've been using the Digitrax 123 decode & lenz mini decoder on my trains.

It seems to me that DCC isn't as popular in Japan because of space issues. it's hard for most modelers to have permanent layouts.
If you are able to purchase them please give some feedback.


Update: Here is the link for the decoders form KatoJapan
http://www.katomodels.com/product/nmi/dcc_decoder_e.shtml

[bill937ca]

It seems to me that DCC isn't as popular in Japan because of space issues. it's hard for most modelers to have permanent layouts.

Most layouts in Japan are temporary.  DCC is probably too much trouble.

[Bernard]

That's what I thought but is Kato still making these decoders? The one for the motor looks like it just slips in but little is known about this product.

[Bernard]

kwt,
I forgot to mention you can accomplish converting your Japanese Model RR trains by also using other type of decoders the the below link for the motor:
http://www.modeltrainstuff.com/product_p/245-dz123.htm

and this one for the head and tail car lights:
http://www.modeltrainstuff.com/product_p/245-dz123.htm

I've done it many times and the Kato trains for the motor are really easy. If you have any questions I how to do it I'm glad to help.

[CaptOblivious]

At least the EM13 motor decoder will be coming to the states in April or May. The new Southern Pacific GS4 is advertised as taking one of those, and many US websites are taking preorders. Looks like they'll be $22 MSRP.

The FR11 Headlight decoder may be making an appearance too. The Zephyr passenger car set released last year was advertised as working with it, and at least one site (Horizon Hobbies) is taking pre-orders for it, too.

[kwt]

The California Zephyr and the Santa Fe Super Chief takes the FL12 Tail light decoder.  Plaza Japan will have them for time to time on their Ebay store.

[CaptOblivious]

Sorry, I meant FL12, not FR13. The FR13 is the interior light decoder. As near as I can tell, there is no plan to release the FR13 in the US. There is another company...and darn it all, I can't find a link...that provides DC and DCC boards to work with Kato interior lighting units.

[CaptOblivious]

Still no date on the EM13, but here is mention of it on the Kato USA website! Very exciting. http://www.katousa.com/N/GS-4/index.html

[hbr245b]

I've no experience of converting non DCC friendly trains to DCC - do you have any suitable links with instructions as to which decoders are suitable for the head/tail lights (your links below are to the same page?) and how the installation/conversion is performed - my one Japanese train is a 12 car Kato Nozomi 500, although I might buy some more in the future.

Do you know if the Kato 11-210 LED kit fits my train?

kwt,
I forgot to mention you can accomplish converting your Japanese Model RR trains by also using other type of decoders the the below link for the motor:
http://www.modeltrainstuff.com/product_p/245-dz123.htm

and this one for the head and tail car lights:
http://www.modeltrainstuff.com/product_p/245-dz123.htm

I've done it many times and the Kato trains for the motor are really easy. If you have any questions I how to do it I'm glad to help.

[Bernard]

Hi hbr245b,

I just doubled checked with someone who installed decoders in a Kato 700 Shinkansen. He said you need 3 Digitrax's DZ123 decoders to do the job. 1 decoder for the motor, 1 decoder to the head car where you have to isolate the LED for the head light to the decoder, and 1 decoder for the tail light where you have to isolate the LED. You can then program the light on each car BUT they can't be reversed. The head car can only be the head (white light) and same with the tail, red. (not like when they were DC where you can interchange them) He had step by step photos of how to do it but has lost them. Digitrax just released a new decoder DZ125 I think to replace the DZ123, but I'm not sure.
If you don't put in the head & tail light decoders, both red & white lights will always be on, but won't cause any damage to the train. I estimate it will cost about $60.

[hbr245b]

OK - thanks for the info. I'll probably proceed with the project in a couple of weeks.

[Bernard]

hbr245b

Here is a link that shows a diagram of the Head/tail light installation.

http://www.katomodels.com/hobby/dcc/dcc_tips/light.shtml


you will need the google translation link (make use it's set to Japanese to English)

http://translate.google.com/translate_t

[CaptOblivious]

My recommendation would be to not use DZ123/5s for the headlights/taillights. These decoders are designed to drive a motor, and so expect a load between the orange and grey lines. You cannot just cut the motor leads off, but must insert a resistor between these leads to use these decoders as simple function-only decoders. This takes up valuable space in the passenger cars. Get a smaller and cheaper function-only decoder for the end cars. It must have at least two functions: One for the headlights and one for the taillights. Digitrax TL4 is a fine one, but there are others, too (Train Control Systems FL4; Lenz 101XF).

And, while you do end up fixing one car as the head, and the other as the tail, the lights will auto-reverse when the train runs backwards (if you set the addys of all three decoders the same), so this shouldn't be a problem. Moreover, if it is somehow an issue, you can always re-program the decoders (just swap the ordinary direction of travel bit in CV29).

[CaptOblivious]

(warning! blatant blog plug)

As for how to actually install the decoder. As soon as my (fried!!) DZ163 gets back from the shop (any day now), I'll be installing it (back) into my KIHA 110, including wiring it up to the head/taillights. If you want lots of pictures, you are welcome to follow along at my blog. I wired the decoder to the pickups and motor here: http://akihabara.artificial-science.org/?p=31 and I will be posting the head/taillight installation here: http://akihabara.artificial-science.org/?cat=19

There will be cutting of traces and soldering of wire. Also, wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Seriously, though, soldering is fun! Whee! If you don't have one, you'll need a soldering iron. RadioShack's 15 watt number is great, and will only set you back US$9, plus solder and accessories (I laid out about $40 for an iron, a stand, solder, solder wick, and helping hands). Plenty of soldering tutorials on the web to help you get started. I recommend finding an old circuit board you don't care about and playing around with it first.

[Bernard]

CaptO,
Thanks for the post. If you can post a step by step photo description of the head & tail light install I think everyone who plans to do this in the future would be most grateful.

[alpineaustralia]

I am completely new to the hobby and have been unashamedly emailing overseas stores asking about them.
I have found some of the decoders on the web as follows:

Kato 29-351 and 29-352

PlazaJapan are still awaiting a shipment and say that it will some time.

Eurolok ( a US store) is expecting a shipment of the within the next week. Try them at WWW.EUROLOKSHOP.COM

Kato 29-353

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=230196592740&ssPageName=ADME:B:DBS:AU:1123

I am awaiting receipt of some of the decoders and I will post an update about installation once I get them.

Good luck

[Bernard]

Alpineaustralia,
Welcome to the hobby, I'm sure you are going to have a lot of fun with it. The Kato decoders are hard to come by and we haven't found anybody who has used them yet. I've used Lenz and digitrax decoders with very good success. What DCC system are you using?

[CaptOblivious]

I've been hearing rumblings of the EM13 beginning to ship here in the states. Walthers site (http://www.walthers.com/exec/locate/381-29351) seems to think some dealers have them. I'm gonna make some phone calls on Monday :D

[alpineaustralia]

Hi Bernard - yes thank you. Seems like a great hobby but I must admit I am surprised by the relatively poor info flow from the N gauge manufacturers generally.  Most times websites and the instructions that come with the shinkansen trains and decoders are almost always in Japanese only. A process of trial and error.

I obtained a Kato 29-351 (EM13) decoder and 4 Kato 29-353 decoders which I have installed with the Kato 11-210 LED lights and they look great. The Kato 29-351 (EM13) decoder was dead easy to install. Idiot proof really. The LED lights and the Kato 29-353 decoders were a little trickier butonly because the parts involved are so small.

I have purchased from the UK (over the internet) the Bachmann Dynamis system. I have yet to set it up but based on the few little test that I have run with wires (rather than track) it seems to work a treat.

I had to buy the decoders and the Dynamis from the UK.  All I can say is thank god that the Aussie dollar is strong at the moment.

[Martijn Meerts]

Alpine, the Japanese manufacturers don't expect things to be sold outside of Japan much, so they can't be bothered to add translated documentation. I've noticed though that Tomix recently started adding an english instruction sheet to their track cleaning car.


As for Kato's decoders, they should be available from Japan, I'm guessing you can get them directly from the Kato Hobby store as well. But these decoders are VERY limited functionality wise. Of course, it really depends on what you want to achieve with your trains. Decoders by Lenz, Digitrax, etc. all have a lot more features and are more programmable than Kato's decoders.

Personally, I use Lenz Gold mini, which on paper is a very good decoder. I have built them into a variety of trains, but I haven't been able to really test them yet due to lack of space. I can't even really set up a simple oval to test at the moment. The problem with the Lenz decoder is that it has so many programmable options, it's hard to figure out what's what. For function decoders I use the smaller Uhlenbrock function decoder. These are nice and small, so they can be hidden out of sight, and without modifying the head/tail car. They also have direction dependent outputs, so you can have either white or red lights depending on what direction the train travels. For internal lighting, I don't use any decoders, so it's an always-on affair. I could add a function decoder per car, but that gets expensive if you have several 16-part shinkansen ;)

I have a Kato 800 series shinkansen which has interior lighting in all cars, Lenz Gold mini in the motorcar, and Uhlenbrock function mini in the end cars. Works great, although it was a bit of experimenting to get the head/tail lights to work.

[bill937ca]

Hi Bernard - yes thank you. Seems like a great hobby but I must admit I am surprised by the relatively poor info flow from the N gauge manufacturers generally.  Most times websites and the instructions that come with the shinkansen trains and decoders are almost always in Japanese only.

We are only a tiny fragment of the Japanese market. For the most part the train market is going to the Japanese vendors rather than Japanese train vendors coming to us. I also find that the line between toys and scale model trains is much more blurred in Japan than North America or Europe.  Plastic models are offered as premiums with products and in vending machines and some of these are sought after by modelers.

[Bernard]

Martijn,
Do you have any photos of how you connected the wires of the decoder to the Head & taillights on the 800? CaptO did a nice job of showing where to attach the wires but as you said it might take a bit of fiddling.

[Darren Jeffries]

If any of you need help with ordering from the UK I can help.... Usually saves on import duty.

[Martijn Meerts]

Bernard, I don't have any directly available, but I'll take a few shots and post them when I get some time, should be around this weekend.

It's probably not very optimal, it's the first train I converted, but it works =)


If you want a fiddly decoder install though, try Kato's M250 super rail cargo ;)

[Martijn Meerts]

With a bit of a delay, here are some (not so good) pictures of my Kato 800 shinkansen decoders.

Just a quick overview of the motorcar and one of the end cars (the end cars are pretty much the same)



Closeup of the motorcar. VERY easy to install here really. Red and black are power from the wheel pickups, grey and orange go to the motor. Kinda happy with the fairly clean install here. I might at some point paint the wires along with the interior (I have in mind painting the interior the actual colors of the prototype, but the question is, who's really gonna notice ;))



Overview of one of the end cars. No decoder visible here, which is a major advantage of the Uhlenbrock function decode I use here. It's so small it can be hidden underneith the interior, makes the installation very fiddly however.



This one show the "fiddlyness" of the install pretty well. Not a lot of space to manouver in. Red and black are once again power from the wheel pickups, blue is common ground, white and yellow are direction dependant lights. Where you connect them depends on the direction of the train. If you look closely you can see that this was a trial & error type of install, both LED's have been unsoldered, re-soldered, cut and soldered again. In the end I found out I really only needed to rotate 1 of the LED's to make it work really ;)



Closeup of where the various wires connect. Blue is common ground (which usually connects to the anode of a LED), yellow connects to the red LED, white connects to the white LED.




Not sure how useful those pictures are. I'm still very much experimenting with installation of lights. The motor is very straightforward and usually only takes me like 5 minutes to install, but with the LED's I always seem to be fiddling for several hours at times. In fact, I fried my first decoder like that ;)

Decoders use are Lenz Gold Mini for the motorcar and Uhlenbrock 73900 mini function decoder for the end cars.

[CaptOblivious]

Martijn,

To the contrary, those photos do a great job of illustrating how the lights get wired up. If only my wiring were as neat as yours...Do you tape down the Lenz decoder? With the wiring nice and flat, and the decoder also lying flat, is it horribly obvious through the windows with the shell assembled? The KIHA 110 I did looks pretty bad, even from a distance: A riot of colored wires visible through the windows, all just flying through the air, and I'm unsure how to tame that unruly mess.

[Martijn Meerts]

Both decoders are taped down with the pads that are included with the decoders. I usually tape them down after testing them with only the power pickup and motor connected, I'll then desolder the wires from the decoder, cut to length, and resolder to the decoder. I found out that (if you have a good soldering iron/pen/station) this way makes the wiring a lot easier.

The decoder is not very visible even close up.. You wouldn't notice it unless you knew it was there actually. The thing with the 800 series as well is that it has a fairly closed off part on 1 end of each car, so that's a good place to hide the decoder. I think that was initially what I intended to do, but somehow it seems the decoder ended up on the other side ;) I think the problem was the lighting kits that I built in afterwards. But even if the wires are visible, it's quite doable to paint them in the same color as the interior, you could even paint (parts of) the decoder. Another thing you can do is darken the windows around the area where the decoder is visible.

But personally I don't mind if it's visible, I started with model trains when you could still see the motor and everything through the windows of locomotives and trainsets etc. And besides, I'm planning on running a lot of steamers, and MicroAce steamers (which generally run the best) all have the motor very visible in the cabin ;) I like realism, but there's a limit to what you can do in N-scale. For realism and super detailing I'm planning on getting some of the Lenz 0 gauge stuff.

This was actually a fairly easy install. I'll see if I can post some pictures of the decoder install in Kato's M250 super rail cargo or one of my Kiha01 railbusses ;)

[Bernard]

I second it, those are great photos. Anything that shows you how to install decoders in any Japanese prototype is a find! I can't tell you how many times I've asked this question at other forums with little feedback. CaptO & Martijn both your posts will answer a lot of future questions about decoder installs. I have the 800 train (not with me sorry to say) and I feel confident doing a head & tail light install with these photos. Thanks!

[CaptOblivious]

Keeping watch on Kato USA's webpage: They finally have prices on some of the accessory decoders that Kato Japan makes:

http://www.katousa.com/N/accessories.html

I've contacted a few dealers about the EM13, and they said they expect Kato USA to resume shipments of those to dealers just as soon as they solve the GS-4 debacle (their new GS-4 steam loco takes the EM13 decoder...and fries it under certain common cirumstances. Oops!)

Looks like street price for the EM13 will be $18-$22.

[alpineaustralia]

Couldnt agree more. Many thank Bernard and Martijn. Great photos.
I have just acquired an E1 "Max" and an older TGV PSE. These do not seem to have the spots for me to plug in a Kato decoder and so I was wondering whether I could still use it albeit soldering it. I must admit Martijn's photos have given me the courage to think about actually buying some other decoders and giving them a go.
Does anyone have any suggestions for good decoders. I'll need headlights and motor decoders.

[CaptOblivious]

Martjin likes the Lenz stuff; I usually go with Digitrax. Lenz are smaller, generally, although the new Digitrax DZ125 is smaller yet. The feature sets are slightly different, but probably not enough of a difference for most people. I think the two most important factors are size and cost, and they're all pretty small and cheap these days...

[Martijn Meerts]

I initially wanted to go for Selectrix, as that is still one of the best systems you can have for N-scale (it was designed for it.) However, Trix switched from Selectrix to DCC mostly (their decoders do both), and with that change the quality seems to have gone down. Also, the old selectrix controllers are much nicer than the new mobile station stuff.

So, pure DCC was the best option in my case, and the reason I went for Lenz is quite frankly because I can easily order that stuff in Norway, so that I don't have to deal with rediculous Norwegian import taxes and the likes. I went for the Gold Mini's due to the functionality on them, and the optional Power1 modules you can connect to them (even though they don't actually fit in anything that would really have a benefit of them ;))

For headlights and such, I found the Lenz function decoder to be too big. In Kato's 800 series shinkansen for example, I wouldn't be able to hide it under the interior without cutting away pieces of plastic there. Considering there were smaller function decoders available (such as the Uhlenbrock I use), I decided to opt for those rather than modify the trains. I don't mind modifying trains, but only if there's no other option.

A disadvantage of the Gold mini's is actually that they have an AWFUL lot of CV's you can program, and most of them have descriptions that Bernd Lenz himself probably doesn't understand ;)


In the end, I would go for the decoder that has the features you feel you need/want, and which is easily accessible, quality wise they're all very similar.





P.S. I hope to have some images soon of a rather interesting decoder install that will likely include milling, drilling and tapping ...

[CaptOblivious]

I found some, and the price is really good! I ordered some EM13s and FL12s yesterday, should be in soon!

http://www.toytrainheaven.com/.sc/ms/cat/DCC%20All%20Scales--Kato

[alpineaustralia]

Well done.
As they say in Oz "cheap as chips".
Still tossing up between Dz125 and Lenz Standard decoder myself.

[CaptOblivious]

Well, I got my EM13s and FL12s in.

First complaint: Only 2-digit addressing. If you try to write a 4-digit address, you have to reset the decoder, because it makes it go all wonky.

Second complain: these are amazingly damned fiddly to install. I have four FL12s, and four end-cars to put them in. You have to fiddle with them a lot to get them to light both headlights and taillights (not simultanesouly, of course!). Even then, while spending something like an hour trying to convince one of my E4 end unit's taillights to come on, I fried one. It would work fine with the shell off, but the shell on was putting pressure on something that it shouldn't, causing only the taillight not to work...jeez, give me wires and solder any day over this.

Anyway, so now I have one FL12 in need of repair or replacement. Digitrax has already said "no", and I await word from Kato USA; in the meantime, anyone got any other ideas of who I might should contact? I'd rather not have to buy another one if I don't have to...

[Bernard]

CaptO,
Did you wind up buying the FL12 form Toy train Heaven? Why not also contact them as to where you can return it. (or who their distributer is) Digitrax from the experience I've had has great customer service, I'm not so sure about Kato. Hope this works out for you. Keep us posted.

[Bernard]

Is it true that Digitrax makes these decoders for Kato?

[CaptOblivious]

No; the Manufacturer ID is the same that Digitrax uses (decimal 129), and they do incorporate Digitrax's proprietary transponding feature, which leads me to believe that Digitrax designed them, but they are clearly labeled as "assembled in Japan"—Digitrax is located just outside Atlanta, for those who don't know. Nevertheless, they were unequivocal that they did not repair this line of decoders.

I have yet to hear back from Kato USA, still. I hadn't contacted Toy Train Heaven yet, mostly because their website said to contact the manufacturer, but I think I will anyway.

I'm still experimenting with the decoders, and hope to have a full report on them soon. I am generally pleased with them, limited as they are.

[Martijn Meerts]

Digitrax makes the drop-in boards for Kato's American trains, and it's been confirmed quite a while ago that Kato and Digitrax have made some sort of agreement about decoders. While Digitrax may not make them at their main location, I do believe everything about those Kato decoders is in fact Digitrax, except the decoders are finalized in Japan.

[Bernard]

CaptO,
I was surprised to see what Toy Train Heaven was charging for the Kato decoders, great price. I've been seeing them for twice that price elsewhere. I checked Toy Train Heaven's website today and the Kato decoders aren't listed anymore. (I don't know if they are sold out or what...) I'm really curious after you get it working, if you would recommend the Kato decoders over other decoders, like the DZ125. (since their prices are similar) You are one of the few people that I know that is using this decoder. Can't wait for your final analysis.

[CaptOblivious]

So, here's a feature list of the EM13, that I've arrived at via trial-and-error. I'll fill this in as I find out more...

O 14/28/128 speed step throttle control
O Ops mode programming and CV readback (via Transponding)
? Operation on DC
O 2-digit addressing
O 4-digit addressing
O Linear momentum
X Non-linear momentum (currently, no Digitrax decoder supports this)
X Constant braking distance (currently, no Digitrax decoder supports this)
O 3-step speed table
O Advanced Consist Addressing
? Advanced Consist Functions
O Static and dynamic scaleable speed stabilization (BEMF)
? Silent operation (via high- or low-frequency pulsed power)
O 128-step speed table
? Low-gear/shunting mode
O Transponding
X NMRA Bi-Directional Feedback (aka RailCom) (currently, no Digitrax decoder supports this)
? Asymmetrical DCC (stop on DC) (probably does, but I have no way to test)

[CaptOblivious]

Update: Kato USA doesn't repair them either. They "do not have a policy for the decoders at this time." Grumble.

So here's one really good reason to go with a DZ125 over the EM13: A solid warranty/repair service.

[bill937ca]

Info from another list.  Plaza Japan says Kato Japan is out of stock and the  EM13 29-351, FL12 29-352 and FR11 29-353 are not on the current production sheet.  Generally production sheets run 3 months.  I believe things are starting to slow down because of economic conditions too.

[CaptOblivious]

I emailed Kato USA, and they replied. Here is what they have to say about the availability of these decoders:

The decoders are only being sold through our Dealers shown on our list.
We have out list of Dealers. On the top of the web page, point on the
"Purchase" button, and then click on the bottom drop down button, "Find a
Hobby Store".

Click on your state (if you are in the corner, then also click on the
surrounding states), and this will list the Hobby Shops that are our
Dealers.  You may place your order with the shop, and let them know that you
have contacted us.  We have these in stock at this time.

[CaptOblivious]

Update: Kato USA doesn't repair them either. They "do not have a policy for the decoders at this time." Grumble.

So here's one really good reason to go with a DZ125 over the EM13: A solid warranty/repair service.

I just got an email from Kato USA, rather out of the blue, the contents of which are reproduced below, and speak for themselves.

We have the decoders in stock (29-352).

Return yours and then we can see what can be done.

:o w00t!

[alpineaustralia]

I just got 2 shipmments of 29-353s. One from the UK and one from Japan. Looks like they are producing them for the moment so I have grabbed as many as I can get my hands on while they have them.

[Bernard]

CaptO - I hope Kato replaces your decoder. Keep us informed on what they do, I'm curious of their customer support.