Kato JR 500 10-510 DCC Digitrax DN163

[inobu]

This is my install for Kato 10-510 JF500

I choose the DN163 because of its size and wiring. The DZ125 is the cost effective route and the install is the same.  The motor install was not too bad and can be quite easy. The first step is to open the shell which is splitting the top shell from the body. The shell separates from the frame and door.

The next step is to prepare the motor shield. I used 1/16" heat shrink. I cut about 2 inches first and stretched the center.

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Next I cut it in two. The reason you stretch it is to create a smaller tubing to fit between the spacing of the motor clips and frame. This creates insulation from the brass pick ups.

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Now measure and cut the tubing so the tips of the motor clips are exposed. This lets you solder the wire from the decoder and insulate it from the pick up.

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Next you want to strap the patient down so it wont move during surgery.

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Tint the wires so you will be able to tack them down quickly. You want a low wattage iron with a pointed tip. They call them pencil irons. Use flux its quicker. Also clean your tips that's how you keep the solder from turning into balls and clumps.

Follow the wiring code per the instruction and use only what you need. I cut them short enough to stay out of the way but long enough to solder wire back on if I needed to.

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Now, I used very thin double sided tape to hold the decoder to the floor.

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After the test snap it back together if you followed these steps and insured that the heat shrink isolated the edges of the pick up you wont have any problems.

 
Here is the reason I chose this method. If I wanted to go back to DC all I have to do is cut the motor clip wire from the decoder and solder it to the pick up wire.

It will be a better connection anyway.  

The light turned out to be a little demanding but I think I got it.

Trying to keep to the original design makes for a easier installation or modification.  This is what I found thanks to Capt Ob.

The OEM lighting board can use a few simple mods to become workable. The first step is to isolate the LEDs from the power and reconfigure the circuit. Here is the suggestion from Kato Japan to isolate the leads. Scratch some of the etching like so.

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I'm starting to think it may be better to redo the board and design the two led circuits needed. I going to come back to this.

Here is the best location for the decoder.

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The wires will actually go through the original access ports but the decoder is over all hidden. It Power pick up of the decoder  will be wired to the bottom of the cars pick ups.  

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The TL-1 cannot be used because it only has 1 function. The unit has a 2 LED configuration so the best decoder would be the DZ125.

Got the light in but I not sure if it is worth $50. It takes two two full decoders to get the light working like the original setup. I used the mod sheet that Capt provided above. There are a few changes that I made but over all its really do-able. You should calculate the resistor value based on the voltage and current of the LED and DC input voltage.  

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This really poses a question. Have bi directional lights for one train or two more trains with DCC.

Hummmmmm

Inobu        

[KenS]

The first test is finding out how many amps the OEM LED's draw and how many volts and amps the decoder can put out.  

According to the DN163 manual, the function outputs are limited to a total of 500 milliAmps (half an Amp).  I think that's typical of Digitrax decoders. Presumably that's at track voltage, which should be 12 volts if you have a command station with an "N scale" setting, or probably 16 volts if you don't.  The Digitrax Zephyr puts out 14 volts (13.9 on mine, actually). Digitrax recommends using a "14-volt or less" DCC system for N scale.

There's a note in the manual that "Lamps that draw more than 80 mA when running require a 22 ohm 1/4 watt resistor in series with the directional light function lead to protect the decoder".

[inobu]

This is my conclusion. The OEM LED has to at least be rated 12V (on the 10-510 JR500) being that 12v is the max output on the DC track. The factor to take into consideration is its current draw.

That conclusion was wrong in that the OEM setup has a resistive circuitry that reduced the current/voltage level down to a level that the LED can operate safely. What one has to be cautious about is inducing change. All LED setups have a resistive network integrated into the circuitry that is based on the input power.  Changing the input power can effect the LED operation. Adding a decoder that puts out 125ma needs to have its output reduced if the LED's forward current level 65ma.

This means if you add a decoder into your LED configuration you need to calculate the resistive value needed to balance or reduce the current to a level that is acceptable to safely operate the LED.  

If we can match the LED specs with a decoder that can drive the led we maybe able to reuse the OEM LED's setup.  Here is the catch to that, the limited space in the cabin of the JR500 will not allow us to (neatly) get a decoder and the OEM setup in the same space. Extra weight is also a deterrent.

I need to get a hold of a FR12 to evaluate. I don't want to run wires through a the cars, to put a complete decoder in is too much. TL1 seems to require a large resistor to reduce the power input.

This one is going to take some doing I beleive.

Inobu
 

[inobu]

KenS,

Do you know if it is 500ma total load with 125ma per function lead or total load. Do you know what the dimension of the FR11.

Inobu

[KenS]

I don't know the per-lead limit, as I've never hooked up more than a few LEDs (two per function max) to a Digitrax decoder.  And that was many years ago on an HO model (but I think it also had six outputs and a 0.5 amp max).

By the way, the current output of the decoder isn't what matters, unless you try to draw more (use too low a resistor). What matters is the current drawn by the LED, which is a function of its "forward voltage", any resistance, and the supply voltage. If the current through the LED is too high, it will either blow immediately or have a shortened life.  The current that will immediately blow a LED is far lower than the current that would damage a decoder output, since those are designed to drive lights.  Unless you string several (more than two) LEDs on an output you aren't going to stress the decoder, since most LEDs blow around 20+ milliamps.

Most LEDs have a maximum operating current of around 20 milliamps, and driving them at around 10 milliamps is recommended for lifespan, although you do have to worry about dimness if you go too low.  A small surface-mount LED might be more delicate; I don't have any experience with those.

Based on photos I've seen, the FR11 is a drop-in replacement for the analog lightboard in Kato's "DCC ready" decoders.  Those are about 1cm square (9mm x 10mm) and 1mm thick.  The thickest part is the surface-mount LED.

On the one E231 I've converted to DCC so far, I only installed the motor and cab decoders (EM13, FL12), and left the car lights as analog.  While I haven't operated that extensively yet (my layout is still DC), my assumption is that this will be safe because the analog board is already wired to rectify the voltage to the correct polarity for the LED (or it wouldn't work in reverse on DC), and that Kato would have included enough safety margin to operate a 12v LED at 14v (my DCC command station's output).

There is, of course, some risk there, but if I'm wrong I'll only blow the analog lightboard, which I'd have to toss anyway if I converted to DCC.  I did use Kato's FL12 on the cabs, as it has the head/tail reversing function based on the DCC direction, and the LEDs are a part of the car, so I didn't want to risk damage there.


I have some notes on Kato's decoders on my site, which include pictures of the three decoders, and a walkthrough of my E231 install which shows the analog lightboard installation.

[CaptOblivious]

KenS: Kato has confirmed that the LED interior light units are fine to use on DCC as-is. They do not heat up, and as you note, include a rectifier to feed flat correctly polarized DC to the LEDs. The current-limiting resistor is set for (per my measurements) a mere 8mA@11V, and so should be perfectly within the LEDs current limits at 14VDC.

KenS is right to note that the 125mA number for the decoder is a maximum capacity: The current-limiting resistor attached to the LED is what determines how much current is actually drawn. In Kato, Tomix, and Micro Ace models fitted with LEDs, those resistors are almost always chosen such as to draw <20mA @ 12VDC. Thus, if you use the existing resistive circuitry, you need add nothing: Just wire the decoder directly to it. If the circuitry drives both headlamps and reverse lights, you will probably have to modify the circuit board. Here are Kato's recommendations for how to modify several common lighting boards. http://www.katomodels.com/hobby/dcc/dcc_tips/light_kato.shtml

Also, the note in the Digitrax manual about using a resistor for lamps that draw more than 80mA does not apply to LEDs. Bulbs have a transient inrush current of 10x the steady-state draw. So a bulb rated for 80mA will draw briefly 800mA(!!) when first switched on. LEDs have no inrush current. The FR11 is unsuitable for use with bulbs because it cannot handle any significant inrush current.

Most LEDs, regardless of whether they are through hole 5mm or 3mm, or SMD, share the very same little chip of silicon, and only differ in form factor. So their operating characteristics are (generally) identical.

Finally, why a 6-function decoder in a motor car? The Digitrax DZ125, for example, is smaller and cheaper.

[inobu]

Good info Capt

"If the circuitry drives both headlamps and reverse lights, you will probably have to modify the circuit board."

This is what I was getting at thanks for the link. 


"Finally, why a 6-function decoder in a motor car? The Digitrax DZ125, for example, is smaller and cheaper."

That's what I had picked up not knowing what I was going to do. Just needed to try something and bought the DN163 and the DZ143.   

I'm learning a lot.

Code for Digitrax

D - Digitrax
N = Scale size
1 = Current max
4 = Function
3 = FX level
X= Company type Kato or Athern
Y= other info connection version

The DZ125 is a better option being that the other feature are not needed. I kinda knew that that is why I did not cut the wires all the way out. 

I've learned to always leave yourself options.

Inobu
 

[CaptOblivious]

Options are good. A DN163 is handy to have…uh…handy, so if you do pick up a DZ125, you were perhaps right not to cut the wires. Of course, and I'm not advocating you actually do this, you could always have an…"accident"…with the DN163, and return it for warranty replacement…;)

You were right, BTW, that if you have to modify the light board, you will likely need an additional resistor, or you will need to ensure that both functions wired to the board never come on at once (which is actually pretty easy to ensure, and even if they do, if it's just for a brief moment, no real harm will come). For my KIHA110, I kept the extant resistor, and wired it to the blue common. But a safer bet is to use it with one of the function leads, and buy a second resistor for the other function lead.

[inobu]

Capt check out the update in the leading entry.


Inobu

[CaptOblivious]

That's a nice hiding place for the decoder in the cab car! Very handy.

I'm all for reusing the existing light boards, but if you are comfortable cutting out bits of perfboard or stripboard to fit the original space, that might be a good route. Having custom PCBs made up is a possibility, but unless a lot of people want them, it would be really really expensive.

[inobu]

That's a nice hiding place for the decoder in the cab car! Very handy.

I'm all for reusing the existing light boards, but if you are comfortable cutting out bits of perfboard or stripboard to fit the original space, that might be a good route. Having custom PCBs made up is a possibility, but unless a lot of people want them, it would be really really expensive.

How about the decoder.

I guess a TL1 it's cheaper. $32 for lights..........


Inobu 

[inobu]

How about the decoder.

I guess a TL1 it's cheaper. $32 for lights..........


Inobu 

Wrong!!!! It won't work need to have two functions.

[Webskipper]

When you run all 16 cars, how do you control multiple powered cars? Will they sync?

[KenS]

The Kato Series 500 only has one motor car, even with the expansion set to make a 16-car set.

I have run an E231 10+5 commuter train with two motor cars. Since they have identical motors and gear trains, they appear to synchronize to each other.  With DCC you could exactly match them using speed tables, although I haven't done that.

[inobu]

When you run all 16 cars, how do you control multiple powered cars? Will they sync?

There is only one motor car in the line up but I guess you can add another power car. If so you will need to create a consist. A consist is multiple decoders responding to the same address. The key to a successful operating consist is to speed match them. In essence one command is received by 2 or more decoders that must run at the same speed. In speed matching you need to tune/adjust each speed step to create the synchronization of the motor cars

If you do not speed match them correctly one motor car will be dragging or pushing the other around the track which is counter productive.

Inobu


Here is a good link to speed matching. http://www.ncmrc.org/howto/Speed_Matching_DCC.pdf

[The_Ghan]

KenS,

Do you know if it is 500ma total load with 125ma per function lead or total load. Do you know what the dimension of the FR11.

Inobu

Head / Tail light decoder = FL12 29-352
Interior lighting = FR11 29-353

Cheers

The_Ghan

[The_Ghan]

The Kato Series 500 only has one motor car, even with the expansion set to make a 16-car set.

I have run an E231 10+5 commuter train with two motor cars. Since they have identical motors and gear trains, they appear to synchronize to each other.  With DCC you could exactly match them using speed tables, although I haven't done that.

KenS,

On a consist that has two or more motor cars that are not adjacent, if you don't match the speed between motor cars then the trailer cars between the motor cars will be in tension and could derail on tight curves or points.

Cheers

The_Ghan

[KenS]

I agree, they could.  But with a 10+5 consist that had the motor cars separated by a half-dozen cars, it ran fine at a variety of speeds over my track, which includes a banked curve (414mm radius) on a 2% grade. Any tension or compression (either is bad) between them wasn't enough to cause a problem in that scenario.  Sharper curves, or something with very light cars, might behave differently.

That was on DC, where speed matching isn't an option.  I do plan to speed match those motor cars when I get that train converted to DCC.

[inobu]

On a multi car unit on a DC track you can make speed adjustments by motor car placement. Divide the train into 2 trains segments, adding cars to the faster segments will give you a means to adjust speed by the load you apply. It all depends on the speed disparity.

Inobu
 

[Spaceman Spiff]

Thanks for the write up Inobu.

I have bought the DZ125 decoders and have the Kato 800 and 100 series. The motor car looks identical to the 500. I assuming that this is the case and I should follow your write up. Is this correct?


Cheers

Spiff

Attached is a pic of my 800 series. The 100 looks identical.

[inobu]

Yes,

You will see that Katos reuses many of their chassis.

Take your time and you will be good to go.

Inobu

[Spaceman Spiff]

Thanks once again Inobu!!

[Spaceman Spiff]

Hi again, looking at doing the install today.

I am using the DZ125 decoder. Looking at the instructions it states "grey" for the negative side of the motor and "orange" for the positive side of the motor. I imagine the motor is not labeled + or -? It really doesn't matter which lead goes to which wire does it? If it is reversed the loco operates the same as per normal except forward and back are reversed right?


Spiff

[KenS]

Orange is (usually) supposed to connect to the motor contact that was originally connected to the "right" side of the frame.  This is also called the "positive" or "red" side as a positive voltage on that side should make a properly wired DC loco move forwards.  Note that the Red wire should connect to the positive pickup if you want the loco to operate properly (in terms of direction) on a DC layout.

If you get it wrong and don't want to rewire, CV29 can be used to change the "normal" direction of travel, but you'll also need to change the head/tail light orientation if you're using those.  On Digitrax that's reportedly (I haven't done this) done through CV33 & CV34 (turning both "on" by setting the appropriate bits as described in the Digitrax Mobile Decoder Manual).

But there's nothing special about orange and gray other than normal direction.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Thanks for the info KenS,  it's for motor car with no lighting so it should be straight forward now with your info.  Hopefully when I take it apart it will give some in indication on direction (fwd/aft) :)

Spiff

[KenS]

That's a good point, "front" is arbitrary on most Japanese EMUs, although some of the tourist ones had different cabs on one end or a side that's supposed to face the ocean or other scenic aspect of the trip, and you could use that to designate "front".  But mostly all that matters is that the motor decoder and the cab decoders for the head/tail lights all agree on which end is the "front", and that's up to you.

I haven't done any wire-in EMU decoders yet, just the Kato EM/FL ones. And with those the EM only fits one way, and if you get the FRs wrong, you just pull out the FRs and reverse their orientation.

[inobu]

Good to see you chugging along Spiff.

Inobu

[Spaceman Spiff]

Against incredible odds I managed to get the motor decoders done in the 100 and 800 Kato Shinkansen motor cars. They also work :) Good thing the soldering is not visible because it is crap not to mention the some of the melting plastic  lol.  I think for the Tomix 0 series I will ask one of the club guys to solder that one as it looks abit more complicated.

Now to get the nerve to do lighting of the front & end units.


Thanks so much to everyone for their help!


Spiff

[CaptOblivious]

Just make sure that the orange and red leads are soldered to the same side, and the grey and black to the other side. Even that rule doesn't matter quite so much. :D Otherwise, on an MU, it doesn't really matter a bit.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Just make sure that the orange and red leads are soldered to the same side, and the grey and black to the other side. Even that rule doesn't matter quite so much. :D Otherwise, on an MU, it doesn't really matter a bit.

The above mentioned quote is for cab lights?

Spiff

[KenS]

If Orange and Red are on the right side, the motor will operate correctly when the loco is on DC track.  For a cab-only decoder, you don't have a motor for the orange to connect to.

[Spaceman Spiff]

I haven't looked at TCS instructions or taken a cab unit apart yet. I am sure the questions will be flying then :)


Spiff

[Spaceman Spiff]

Well thanks to the great info I received from the board my 3 Japanese Shinkansen motor cars are now DCC equipped.

inobu, do you have a light board decoder install write up for dummies for the Kato board (like the one pictured)? Looks like it may be difficult for non soldering expert like myself.

Is there a way to install the decoder so that I can use one DCC address for the motor car and the two end units? I imagine I would have to "wire" one of the backwards so it displays the opposite lights to match the other two decoders?


Cheers

Spiff

[David]

It depends on the decoder.

The Kato FL12 decoder has 4 output pads that provide 2 independent power sources (though only one is on at a time, based on direction). Technically you would wire this decoder "in reverse".

Most other decoders you would just reverse them in software - either by setting that decoders normal direction of travel (the first bit of CV29), or by programming which functions are turned on in response to what events, depending on how the decoder works.

[inobu]

Unfortunately there's not an easy lighting solution.

The board you pictured is a modified board which divides the lighting board into two LED circuits. The reason you have to divide the board is the original board is designed where the LED shares a common path which allows one LED to operate when polarity is switched on the track. The board is configured where the LED operate based on the polarity on the track. It is like a flop flop circuit.

As David posted the decoder has independent outputs which means you need to have independent LED circuits which requires modification to the original board.   

There is a lot of un-soldering and soldering involved to get it going and the time and effort which led me to the cost point of spending $50 for lights or converting 2 more units to DCC. I choose to converts the units instead.

If I were to do it, I would used the FL12 like David suggested and wire it in.

Inobu

[David]

If I were to do it, I would used the FL12 like David suggested and wire it in.

Unless the board was designed for it, the FL12 doesn't really solve those problems. All of Kato's "DCC Ready" boards that support the FL12 already have the LED leads seperated - instead of 2 DC pads on the light board, which split into seperate paths for the LEDs (with the polarity reversed so only one lights at a time), there are 4 pads on the lightboard, one for each lead. They are arranged so that the positive pad from one LED and the negative pad from the other LED are on the same side of the board (left or right). When under DC power, the brass strip makes contact with both pads, so the LED with the matching polarity is lit. The FL12 decoder fits between the brass strip and the pads. The decoder has a single left and right pad for getting power from the strip, but the underside has 4 pads to match the lightboard - it's a regular Digitrax 2 function decoder with the common wire feeding 2 pads, so it can only turn a function on or off, not reverse polarity.

However I think there is a European decoder that supports "dual" polarity output on a pair of function wires.

[David]

There is a lot of un-soldering and soldering involved to get it going and the time and effort which led me to the cost point of spending $50 for lights or converting 2 more units to DCC. I choose to converts the units instead.

I'm heading there and my beginners plan has been to just dump any complicated lightboards when I encounter them and substitute my own LEDs (this is almost a must for the Tomix ED75, the 2 lightboards are practicially SMDs laying directly on the split frame for pickup). Thoughts?

[CaptOblivious]

If I were to do it, I would used the FL12 like David suggested and wire it in.

However I think there is a European decoder that supports "dual" polarity output on a pair of function wires.

Not any more. Lenz used to make one. They discontinued it. NGDCC of Japan makes one. You can also use a TCS motor decoder, and use the motor leads to control the headlights (TCS decoders let you control the motor leads with a function, unlike other brands).

[inobu]

I think doing your own boards is the way to go but the time and effort behind them is what gets me. Even after all the designing you still have to buy two decoder to operate the lights and I got lazy with it.

I'm kinda waiting/hoping for an easy solution from NGDCC when ever that happens.

INobu 

   

[Martijn Meerts]

I think doing your own boards is the way to go but the time and effort behind them is what gets me. Even after all the designing you still have to buy two decoder to operate the lights and I got lazy with it.

I'm kinda waiting/hoping for an easy solution from NGDCC when ever that happens.

INobu 

   

I've been considering trying to make interior light strips with decoder built right into the light strip, or optionally design some cheap single-function decoder that somehow connects to the official tomix/kato/microace light strips. It wouldn't be that much of a problem creating light board replacements with decoders built in from there either.

The problem is, I just don't have the knowledge to design the actual circuitry required, not to mention you'd have to get the correct PIC and be able to program that :)

I've tried looking at various open source hardware to see if I can get some basics from there, but with work, Locowerks and my OSX/iOS apps, I just don't have the time to seriously look into it.

[inobu]

Yep,

It is time consuming, It is a lot easier when you are in the field, then it is just a "by the way" development. You can squeeze it in between some other job.

When you are not in the field what would cost a few hundred dollars turns into a few thousand to get it going. Then you are going from a hobby to a business.

Inobu

[Darklighter]

There is a cheap (8-9 Euro) function decoder made by Tams with two outputs that can be programmed to depend on the direction of travel: http://www.tams-online.de/htmls/produkte/fd_r/produkte_fd_r.html (English manual, see p. 52). Unfortunately, it's pretty big (12,5 x 9,5 x 3,3 mm) and I guess, its installation won't be any easier than that of a FL12, but it might be a cheaper alternative...

[Martijn Meerts]

There is a cheap (8-9 Euro) function decoder made by Tams with two outputs that can be programmed to depend on the direction of travel: http://www.tams-online.de/htmls/produkte/fd_r/produkte_fd_r.html (English manual, see p. 52). Unfortunately, it's pretty big (12,5 x 9,5 x 3,3 mm) and I guess, its installation won't be any easier than that of a FL12, but it might be a cheaper alternative...

I was actually considering getting one of those to test with for use with internal lighting, but even at 8-9 euro it's expensive considering how many are needed for a 16-car shinkansen =)

[Darklighter]

There is a cheap (8-9 Euro) function decoder made by Tams with two outputs that can be programmed to depend on the direction of travel: http://www.tams-online.de/htmls/produkte/fd_r/produkte_fd_r.html (English manual, see p. 52). Unfortunately, it's pretty big (12,5 x 9,5 x 3,3 mm) and I guess, its installation won't be any easier than that of a FL12, but it might be a cheaper alternative...

I was actually considering getting one of those to test with for use with internal lighting, but even at 8-9 euro it's expensive considering how many are needed for a 16-car shinkansen =)

True that. ;)

I saw an interesting how-to on DIY interior lightning today:
http://bastler-hp.de/?option=com_content&view=article&id=373&Itemid=64
http://bastler-hp.de/images/stories/Downloads/anleitung_platine_innenbeleuchtung.pdf
(only in German, but lots of pictures)
Of course, the lights can't be turned off without a decoder, though.  

[Martijn Meerts]

Making an interior light strip isn't that difficult really, it's the decoder bit that's the problem. I've seen light strips with decoder built in, but they were for H0, and overly expensive :)

You could ask yourself if it's really necessary to be able to turn on and off interior light of course. The Kato, Tomix and Micro Ace strips generally only have 1 LED, so they don't use a lot of power, nor do they get hot. I guess what I really like is the ability to dim the lights. In most cases, interior light kits are just too bright.

[Webskipper]

On a multi car unit on a DC track you can make speed adjustments by motor car placement.

Suppose I do acquire a couple powered chassis for the Nozomi.

Where are the correct positions in a 16 car consist?

One would believe positions #2, #8 (center), and #15 will make for a fast, well balanced consist driving in either direction. I'd only do this with DCC.

[inobu]

Skipper,

With DC you cannot control the speed variance between two different unit. Let's say you applied 6 volts to the track, one motor may be faster than the other. The 6 volts may have unit A traveling 40 MPH and unit B may only travel 37 MPH at the same 6 volts. The only way to slow unit A down is to add more cars to its string. So it you had a set of 16 cars you would divide the set in two. Unit A with 7 and Unit B with 7. Unit A would still be faster. Take one car from Unit B's string and add it to Unit A and the extra load may slow it down to 37 MPH (for example). This is what I mean by car placement.

With DCC it is different because the speed can be adjusted based on the applied voltage by the decoder. You will program the decoder to apply 3.5 volts at 25% throttle on one decoder (unit A) and it make take 3.8 volts for unit B to travel at the same speed as unit A at 25% throttle. With DCC speed adjustments are programmable.

What you want to do with DCC is program both units to travel at the same speed and place them in the middle of the consist. That way they share the load.

This is one reason I bought a speedometer for my track, to insure all consist units travel at the same speed

Inobu     
 

[Webskipper]

This is one reason I bought a speedometer for my track, to insure all consist units travel at the same speed    
 

A slot car track Electric Speedometer, gun type, scout watch, or the Nike sensor (6.52g) for your iPod or iPhone? :)


It sure makes a big difference how you break in a motor, too.

[inobu]

http://www.ulrichmodels.biz/servlet/the-490/Speedometer-for-HO-and/Detail


Inobu

[KenS]

Inobu, does it do metric, or only mph?

I'd seen this before, and I'd been thinking about it. Right now I use a stopwatch. But there's very little about it online.