1 layout or 2? (The latest trivial dilemma....)

[scott]

Pardon the self-involved blather, but it might help me work this out if I write it up. Plus any thoughts would be welcome.

As a few of you may remember, I'm interested in both Japanese and (forgive me) European N scale. I've said before that we were planning to make our layout non-place-specific and run either kind of train, as the mood strikes.

Lately, for some reason, I've been struggling with this. Part of it may be that I'm interested in the specifics of places, so it seems odd to build a model of no-place. So it's become tempting to build a second layout for one or the other, so that both could be place-specific. (Although they'd probably both be fictional towns/routes, since I don't really have room for a to-scale model of a real station.)

The practical problems are that (1) we don't have room for another big layout, so the second layout would have to be small; (2) after a recent vacation and some unexpected major car repairs, we can't afford a lot more track, materials, etc., so again the second would have to be small and minimal; and (3), a second layout would be distraction that would keep me from finishing the first one.

OK, so those are some good reasons not to do another layout, I guess.

[EDIT]: I was thinking it would be a waste to do a "generic" layout and then do a second layout later, but I guess I could just refit the first one later.

I wonder what the serious Japan-only modelers think of a "mixed" layout like this--is it lame modeling, sort of a cop-out, or is it no big deal and I should get over it? :-)

[to2leo]

Hey Scott,
You should do what you do and not be influenced by outside factors.  It is your hobby.

Like many members here, I embraced both European, Japanese and American train sets.

You can combine all of them by making certain corners of your layout as country specific.
Heck even Miniatur Wunderland, the largest layout in the world, is doing that.

Just my 2 cents.

[KenS]

I wonder what the serious Japan-only modelers think of a "mixed" layout like this--is it lame modeling, sort of a cop-out, or is it no big deal and I should get over it? :-)

I'm not sure I'm a serious modeler, but I am (presently) a Japan-specific one, so I'll throw my two cents in.  Of course what really matters is what feels right to you, not anyone else.  You're going to put the work in, and you're going to have to look at it every day.

That said, I don't think there's anything wrong with a "generic" railroad.  Personally, I want a sense of place, so I'm planning to model details (Japanese signs, buildings that scream "this isn't Kansas!", road details like edge drains and pavement markings, etc) that provide that air of "this is Japan". But signs (except those applied to fixed objects like building windows) could be swappable or omitted, road markings that are general enough to be anywhere wouldn't look "wrong" for Japan, or many European cities (based on what I've seen in photos anyway; I've never been to either), and many Japanese buildings look like many American or European ones (global culture is becoming homogenized, at least at the mass-produced commercial end of the scale).

Rural buildings are a bit more problematic, as they tend to have more of a local character, but railroad stations are often generic, utilitarian structures, and as long as you don't model rice paddies, fields, streams and woodlands can be generic and still look correct.

On my old HO railroad I used more than a few European-prototype trucks, and never cared that they didn't look perfect for rural New England.

Another thing to think of, if your layout would be an oval, would be to make it European on one side, and Japanese on the other.  After all, you can only stand in one place at a time.

And even though my layout is going to be very Japanese, I'm still thinking of getting one of the Kato GG1s and running it on my Shinkansen loop occasionally. No idea what I'd pull with it, but I'll think of something.  Maybe some Japanese container flat cars. 

[Martijn Meerts]

The space problem can be solved by doing a double deck layout. It only really works well when building an along the wall layout though, and it can get costly as well if you want to do it right.

But really, run whatever you feel like. As you know I'm mainly working on a European layout at the moment with my father. My Japanese stuff is up on the attic where it can drive on a small loop. Some of the Japanese stuff might find it's way to the European layout though.

Also, if you make the scenery generic, and don't permanently add buildings and such to the layout, it's quite doable to later change it to be more specific to a country or region. The most important thing is running the trains, there's nothing quite as depressing as having lots of trains and not being able to run them because you've limited yourself to a certain area after having already bought a variety of trains.

[scott]

All good thoughts--thanks, guys. I appreciate the thoughtful answers.

[qwertyaardvark]

I wonder what the serious Japan-only modelers think of a "mixed" layout like this--is it lame modeling, sort of a cop-out, or is it no big deal and I should get over it? :-)

It is your layout, but if it is just the opinion of a mere forum member towards a generic layout stopping you, then personally, its no big deal and you should get over it :P

My first train wasn't japanese, it was Kato's Eurostar. My second one after that: Taiwan 700T. Only later did i amass my shinkansens.  Because of this order, I am more than happy to embrace trains from all regions. If it makes you feel better, eventually my plan for my Tokyo station is make a way for such trains to logically appear on a layout: a trans-Korea-Japan Sea bridge. My miniature world goes the route of where Japan completes their bridge they had planned during the "Pacific War" (minus the imperialism and bad stuff; As a Filipino, I'm not happy with Bataan and other events, but I've gotten over that) and HSR lines stretch across Russia. Even America and Canada joins in the fun with a Bering Straight bridge connecting Alaska and Russia. And so my Tokyo station will have an international platform and lines for which the trains can congregate.

This story which I have crafted in my mind helps me be at ease at the thought of running trains from different countries. B/c i know I'll never replicate a region perfectly enough to please any rivet counter or even myself, I choose to make a layout in a place no one can nitpick: my imagination. And that does it for me. 

[Mudkip Orange]

Build ONE layout with TWO sections.

Half your scenery is Europe and trackwork is based on EU or UK practice.

Half your scenery is Japan and lineside detailing is based on Japanese practice.

[Hobby Dreamer]

Hi Scott, once again this forum reveals itself to be a great bunch of guys willing to help out!

Could you be happy with the addition of trams? Or what about a viaduct to make a second level? What I especially like about the current trams is that you could buy non-motored Tomytecs and one Kato for running - not expensive and you could get away with spackled flex track. The Portrams have the appeal that they are Japanese-specific but they are also generic looking. A tram addition could start out inexpensive but can grow with track/tram availability. And it need never take up a lot of space.

Good luck
Rick

[disturbman]

I do agree with my fellow modelers here.

First, you have to do what you feel is right. This is the most important.
Second, if you can't invest too much in layout building material and so on, divide your layout in halves or thirds so you mix scenery locations on your one layout.
Third, if you decide to go with just one scenery locations nothing can force you not to run all the others train on it. You can allways find a good and plausible reason to run a geographically mistmatch rolling stock. Like, JR and DB decided to invest in the US and ship some of their trains other there or, a private japanese  company is offering tourist runs on "gaijin" trains.

But that said, and since I remember some of your others threads/questioning/remarks, I think it is time for you to start building some modules where you can model the precise area of Japan that you seem interested in. This will be your layout where as the other one, the big one, will be yours and your son's. Maybe you should ask him what he want to do about that this scenery problem.  

Also, working with module will allow you to focus money spending and your building energy by reducing the "investment" scale.

[marknewton]

Scott, I think Vincent's suggestion is a very good one. You could build very specific European and Japanese modules, and use them in conjunction with generic or even non-sceniced return loops/staging/what have you. As the other blokes have said, you're the person you have to satisfy, and I get the impression that you wouldn't be satisfied with a layout that was too generic.

All the best,

Mark.

[scott]

Lots of ideas here--thanks!

I like the module idea, as well as the tram layout--we do have one Portram, which I agree is generic-looking enough to work just about anywhere.

At the moment, I'm leaning toward not being *too* specific with the big layout, but starting a Japanese module of some sort with the extra pieces in our stash. That way I can decide to make the setting(s) of the big layout more specific once finances improve and I see how things go. And if it leans Japanese, I can always make a European station module, which I'd considered in the past.

This will be your layout where as the other one, the big one, will be yours and your son's. Maybe you should ask him what he want to do about that this scenery problem. 

That would be fun--I could probably get a different answer every day! :-)

[Krackel Hopper]

hey hey,

With the module idea - have you considered N-trak or T-trak?  This would make your modules interchangeable.  This way you could model very specific themes and swap them out as you see fit.  At first you would find yourself with a mixed layout.. but once you got a small stack of modules built, you could separate them and have a European T-trak layout and a Japanese T-trak layout - or stacked together for an around the room Euro-Japan T-trak..

Something I think gets overlooked for T-trak is the ability to make double/triple/quadruple sized modules.  A basic module of 308mm only allows for a straight double-track, but when you get into a double/triple/quad module you have the ability of adding turnouts.  There are also a number of special modules, ones that "flip" the track from front to back, "T" intersection modules, inside corner modules (to make an "L" shape layout) to name a few..

If you haven't, you should seriously consider the size/length of the trains you want to run on your layout.  The size of the trains will help you determine the size of the layout you'll need.. both so your train isn't chasing its tail and that the layout has big enough radius curves to handle the trains you'll be running.

Jon

[CaptOblivious]

Mixed layouts are an abomination; I'm inclined to kick your European-modeling butt off this forum!

;)

Seriously, though, I think you have been getting the best advice here possible: It's your layout, don't let anyone else tell you how it should be done. You should listen to helpful advice, but it's your decision what to actually do. "Ride your own ride", common advice to new motorcyclists (like me), is about the best life lesson I've ever learned.

Anyway, perhaps you should know, since I have a feeling at least some of your anxiety is caused by my posted opinions, that I don't think such mixed layouts are abominations at all, but that they can be pretty fun. The only reason I wouldn't build one is because I find it easier to model when I have a set of concrete photographs in front of me telling me how it should look! That said, my layout Shogatsu is not very region specific; I had intended it to be a village in northern Honshu, but really, it could be anywhere in Japan. I run whatever I feel like on it, and have fun with it. If I had non-Japanese stock, I'd be running it there too. After all, if the Orient Express can tour Japan, why not an Amtrak Superliner? Right?

That said, here is my advice. I like the idea of making up modules (that is, after all, what I am doing with Akihabara Station). And I like the half-and-half idea too, but I think that might be tough to pull off on your current layout, as it's up against a wall, yes? As I recall you have two main stations, right? Why not model one station as a Japanese station in a (real) Japanese city, and one as a European station in a (real) European city?

[scott]

Jon--maybe I should re-visit my idea of building a triple- or- quad-width T-Trak board with a Japanese station. I know the point of T-Trak was to build very detailed small scenes, but since I don't have a club, I could just use the standard for my own purposes. I could probably live with 6-car trains, since a lot of the limited expresses and locals that I'm interested in are that length or shorter.

Don--don't worry, this was triggered by my own various hangups, not by your posts. 

I've thought over the half-and-half idea that a few people have suggested, but for whatever reason I think that would bug me more than just being generic.

I originally wanted our basement layout to be European, before I found this place and got so interested in Japanese trains (although I've been interested in Japan for a long time). (Back then the question was how to incorporate Amtrak, but that's not a priority anymore.) One option would be to let it go that way over time as I gradually put together some Japanese modules that would eventually add up to a full layout. I hope that wouldn't make me a second-class citizen around here. ;-)

Mixed layouts are an abomination; I'm inclined to kick your European-modeling butt off this forum!

Em's fightin words! ;-)

[gr8tfuldead]

I am in the process of building two layouts at the moment. The are both L shaped so that they boyh fit around the perimeter of my 10 x 11 room. One is an urban layout, not necessarily Japan, but using Japanese trains as I am replicating commuter service and using Kato viaduct and stations. The other is a Western US transitional steam to deisel layout. Both use Kato Unitrack exclusively.
The advantages of two layouts at once are that you never get bored with one as you can switch to the other. If you reach an impass building one, work on the other to clear your head. On the other hand, two layouts mean that you have to split your time and monetary resouces between them and possibly taking twice as long to complete them both.
Considering the advantages and drawbacks, I'm glad I'm building both because it's really twice the fun!

[scott]

That sounds good, but in my case the bones of the 1st layout are already built, and there isn't really room for a  second of equal size.

You should post a thread in the "Personal Projects" section with pictures of your layouts! There are lots of people into urban Japanese layouts here.

[Mossberg]

I don't have any good advise to give you but I am having exactly the same problem my self. So I am greatful for your question and all the input it has recived.

My first layout was German and set around 1920. And I have started to expand it. But I then "discovered" Japanese model railroading, bought some Japanes trains and buildings and built a small Japanese test layout. And now I don't no where to go.

I like http://quinntopia.blogspot.com a lot, which is a living prof that you can mix with very good results. But for different resons I hesitate on going down that path my self. One reson is that my German layout is digital while all my Japanes locos (4 at the moment ;-) are analog (and I really don't like soldering). Another resons is that I like steam engines, and the countryside. Which, I think, makes it harder to mix with good results. Modern urban life is so chaotic so a mix feels more natural.

/Magnus M

[EWS60008]

I think the main thing that should matter most is the enjoyment of running any trains you like on the layout that are your favourites. Though I am in the progress of building a Japanese layout (known as "Sakai-shi" near Osaka) which is based on the Kansai theme, I have a fair amount of British, German, French and Spanish rolling stock that I will run on the layout as well as some Japanese trains. As my Japanese fleet is very small at present, I am using other rolling stock such as the AVE S-100 that is running alongside my Tomix JR 700 Hikari Shinkansen until I get round to buying a full 16-car JR 700 Nozomi Shinkansen set. So in my mind, as long as you are enjoying yourself running trains on the layout. It doesn't matter what stock you use. As for the purists and rivet counters, if they don't like it then thats their "hard cheese" because after all it is your model railway - not theirs mate! .

[westfalen]

I'm going the T-TRAK route after my club decided to use T-TRAK instead of N-TRAK for our show layouts. At home I plan on having a staging yard at the rear of the layout with the modules at the front changing depending on what I feel like running, with T-TRAK you can literally swap modules in seconds. The photo shows the staging yard and my first set of modules for the front of the layout based around the Walthers Santa Fe depot. Another set will be a Japanese station scene and I've got several other ideas in my head as well, it will take me longer to change the trains on the layout than to swap the modules.

[scott]

Westfalen--I really like this idea. It looks like you're using "alternate" spacing, which makes sense. How deep are those modules?

[bill937ca]

After three year of modeling I am being more and more inclined to a very generic Japanese layout with only the slightest hints of  particular places.  Why?  Because there is so much to model and most of us probably buy all kinds of trains: mainiline JR blue trains, Shinkansens, commuter trains like the E231 and E233, special trains like the Romancecar VSE 50000, the Nankai Rapi:d 50000, or the Series 285 Super Odoriko;  old Tomytec interurbans as single cars or in trains, Enoden trains, Portram LRVs and Modemo trams.  About the only distinction I will make is to keep high platform stock separate from curb level loading trams and trains (which are rare). I want to run all my trains, but most theme layouts don't really allow that.

The other issue is that there are so many types of track you build your layout with: stock rail, single elevated line, double elevated tracks, super elevated curves and tram tracks.  No everything is found in one place, but I want everything I can possibly add to the layout and I keep wanting to try something different.

I would set the scene with sometime like Mt Fuji, tradtional Japanese wooden buildings, Japanese tea gardens or temples and shrines and with Kanji signs on buildings. But nothing else really specific to a locale. There is so much that is uniquely Japanese that you don't really have to that specific to be authentic.

I use 2.5' x 5' tables on casters that are held together with C clamps so I can attach them anywhere, lengthwise or L shaped.

[Mudkip Orange]

That is a whole lot of Kato #4's!

[westfalen]

That is a whole lot of Kato #4's!

There has been two more added to the empty space at this end of the station modules since the photo was taken.

[westfalen]

Westfalen--I really like this idea. It looks like you're using "alternate" spacing, which makes sense. How deep are those modules?

It is the alternate spacing, 33mm, which is the standard in the Australian T-TRAK standards and is also the normal Kato double track spacing. The modules are the standard 300mm deep. The station is on two double modules with a single in between, each end of the yard is a double module with straight track modules between to increase the length as needed.

[scott]

After three year of modeling I am being more and more inclined to a very generic Japanese layout with only the slightest hints of  particular places.  Why?  Because there is so much to model and most of us probably buy all kinds of trains

It's true, that would make things easier and more relaxed. Trying to be accurate about any one location can be really limiting, which is ironic given the amazing variety of trains in Japan.

[Lawrence]

Hey Scott, hope you don't mind me chucking my ideas in too, so here we go....

My last layout was 1960's (ish) Baltimore & Ohio, now running a cream & red 2 car DMU past some of the Walthers kits I'd used would just not look right, so it has gone.  Someone said that it's your layout and you should run what you want, and to a certain extent I agree, but even I (freelance is the only way to go!) would try to give the layout a feel for the continent the trains came from e.g. you couldn't have the Flying Scotsman passing the Chrysler building.

One of the guys on YMR has a combined UK\US layout however, it is split along its length with a scenic divider and he has access to both sides and has 2 separate scenarios to model.

It will become apparent that when I start my Japanese layout (if ever!) that I know sod all about what should run what and where, all I will do is try and give it and authentic feel, and that is the best suggestion I can make to you.  So by all means run different era stuff on the same layout, but try and keep it continent specific.

[scott]

So by all means run different era stuff on the same layout, but try and keep it continent specific.

Ideally, that's exactly the way I'd like to do it--I'm more concerned with place than with era-correctness. But I beginning to realize that I'm going to have to transition to that approach gradually, and just deal with the weird feeling for a while. Between money, space, and family issues, another full-size layout isn't going to happen soon.

I am hoping, though, that I can build a small all-Japanese station module/diorama out of parts that I already have, just so I don't feel like I  have to drop Japanese modeling entirely for a long time.

[westfalen]

So by all means run different era stuff on the same layout, but try and keep it continent specific.

Ideally, that's exactly the way I'd like to do it--I'm more concerned with place than with era-correctness. But I beginning to realize that I'm going to have to transition to that approach gradually, and just deal with the weird feeling for a while. Between money, space, and family issues, another full-size layout isn't going to happen soon.

I am hoping, though, that I can build a small all-Japanese station module/diorama out of parts that I already have, just so I don't feel like I  have to drop Japanese modeling entirely for a long time.

I like to try and keep the era of what I have on the layout at a given time roughly consistent. Most people wouldn't know that the Super View Odoriko, Tsubami and a Kintetsu EMU wouldn't be seen together, but if a 9600 2-8-0 trundled into the station beside them with a string of four wheeled freight cars they'd probably realise something was out of place. I try to do the same when I running Santa Fe, the zebra stripe SD24's and 40ft boxcars don't mix with the Super Fleet SD70's and double stacks.

[cteno4]

scott.

one of the jrm members has a large basement unitrak layout in his basement. he collects the trains he has ridden on so he has a big load of japanese. european and i think a few us trains. his layout is in a big G shape. one end is Zurich and the other one Kyoto. there is sort of a generic looking us city (philly) in the center!

as i get older im finding myself trying to focus more on one thing at a time as i find myself too bifurcated!

cheers

jeff

[scott]

one of the jrm members has a large basement unitrak layout in his basement. he collects the trains he has ridden on so he has a big load of japanese. european and i think a few us trains. his layout is in a big G shape. one end is Zurich and the other one Kyoto. there is sort of a generic looking us city (philly) in the center!

I can see how that might be fun, but to be honest I think it would drive me sort of nuts. (Not that I'm not there already, as this thread shows... :rolleyes: )

as i get older im finding myself trying to focus more on one thing at a time as i find myself too bifurcated!

Yeah, I think I would be a lot happier if I could manage that. Right now, though, I'm having a hard giving up on either location.

10 obsess(trains)
20 goto 10

[Lawrence]

Most people wouldn't know that the Super View Odoriko, Tsubami and a Kintetsu EMU wouldn't be seen together, but if a 9600 2-8-0 trundled into the station beside them with a string of four wheeled freight cars they'd probably realise something was out of place. I try to do the same when I running Santa Fe, the zebra stripe SD24's and 40ft boxcars don't mix with the Super Fleet SD70's and double stacks.

Easy - it is called a heritage line 

[Mudkip Orange]

Most people wouldn't know that the Super View Odoriko, Tsubami and a Kintetsu EMU wouldn't be seen together, but if a 9600 2-8-0 trundled into the station beside them with a string of four wheeled freight cars they'd probably realise something was out of place. I try to do the same when I running Santa Fe, the zebra stripe SD24's and 40ft boxcars don't mix with the Super Fleet SD70's and double stacks.

Easy - it is called a heritage line 

Or any small private railway that buys secondhand stock... I mean is it really that much of a stretch to imagine Tokyu or KinkiSharyo shortening an ex-Odoriko consist to three cars for use on Choshi Dentetsu? Nagaden runs old Romancecars that have been clipped to four cars (including streamlined ends)...

[marknewton]

Someone said that it's your layout and you should run what you want, and to a certain extent I agree, but even I (freelance is the only way to go!) would try to give the layout a feel for the continent the trains came from e.g. you couldn't have the Flying Scotsman passing the Chrysler building.

Why not? The loco "Flying Scotsman" was in  the USA between 1969 and 1973. 

(You could have it running on an Australian layout, too!)

Cheers,

Mark.

[Mudkip Orange]

You couldn't run the Super Chief anywhere on the Japanese 1067mm network because of the smaller loading gauge.

But you could run the Super View Odoriko on the Northeast Corridor with nothing more than an FRA waiver.

Besides, I like this idea of a train line that connects Philadelphia to Kyoto and Zurich in under an hour. Life would be a lot more interesting were that the case...

[EWS60008]

Besides, I like this idea of a train line that connects Philadelphia to Kyoto and Zurich in under an hour. Life would be a lot more interesting were that the case...

It certainly would mate, just imagne the fun bashing a Class 20 from Llandudno Junction to Sapporo! Or a HST 125 from Birmingham to Osaka! .

[cteno4]

10 obsess(trains)
20 goto 10

cant get any more basic than that...

hear the one about the mystery death of the guy in the shower. found dead, apparently starved with many bottles of shampoo around him. finally the ace detective comes in and clears it all up saying "its elementary, they guy was a programmer and read the shampoo label -- Lather, rinse, repeat."

jeff

ok you can groan now... hey ive been programming off and on for 38 years...

[Martijn Meerts]

10 obsess(trains)
20 goto 10

cant get any more basic than that...

hear the one about the mystery death of the guy in the shower. found dead, apparently starved with many bottles of shampoo around him. finally the ace detective comes in and clears it all up saying "its elementary, they guy was a programmer and read the shampoo label -- Lather, rinse, repeat."

jeff

ok you can groan now... hey ive been programming off and on for 38 years...

Should sue the shampoo company for releasing something with an infinite loop =)

[to2leo]

that was actually pretty funny