Lubricants

[Bernard]

Alpineaustralia brought up a good point in another post about lubricants. I purchased an E1 off ebay and gee did it ever squeal! My LHS sold me some "sewing machine oil" that is light weight and another LHS sold me "gear oil" that they use in RC cars. This lubricant is very sticky to the touch so I'm a little leary to use it on my trians. What do other members use?

Here is a link to some other lubricants:
http://www.modeltrainstuff.com/SearchResults.asp?Search=lubricants&Search.x=20&Search.y=15

[CaptOblivious]

It depends on what you're going to be lubricating. The brushes, for example, want something lightweight and conductive. The gears in the trucks (bogies), on the other hand want something rather heavy and goopy—so it doesn't come flying off of rapidly rotating gears from lack of centripetal force! Since I need some, I've been trying to dig up what Kato uses in its trucks—It's clearish brown and quite heavy, and they use only a smidgeon. I guess I'll just have to ask. I'm not sure that sewing machine oil is the best choice—it's not heavy enough for trucks, and its not conductive for the brushes—but I'm also not the best informed on this sort of thing, so I'm willing to take that back if I'm wrong.

[alpineaustralia]

I found this site which gives a whole range of options

http://www.xs4all.nl/~raicho/model/maintain/lubeoverview.html

http://www.xs4all.nl/~raicho/model/maintain/lubeoverview.html

[alpineaustralia]

The kato products seem to be:

24-020  -  Uni-Cleaner (Cleaning type only)
Japanese price ¥ 420 tax
The translation of the description I found was:

Energized in a slump and bad driving that causes the surface of the wheel and rail garbage and dirt washing off the floor cleaner is a private agent. Uni-cloth or toothbrush with a little cleaner on the wheel and rail to scrape the surface clean. Parts such as gear for cleaning as well. And 50ml.

24-021 YUNIKURINOIRU (Rust dedicated lubrication type)
Japanese price ¥ 263 tax

The translation of the description I found was:

And other travel gear lubricant and rust-proof system in this YUNIKURINOIRU please. Energy is an abnormal sound of a car's gear just a drop of lube OK. Lubrication with nozzles. And 9ml.

[alpineaustralia]

I finally bit the bullet and bought an Aero Locomotive Lubricant Pak (thats the way they spelt it)

See:  www.aerocarlubricants.com

You get 3 liquids:
1. a bottle of ACT 3753 Conducta which is to be used on the motor brushes;
2. a bottle of ACT 2112 Motor Bearing Lubricant which is to be used on the motor bearings; and
3. a jar of ACT 1111 NG Jel (Gear jel) which is to be used on gears.


Can I ask some really basic questions?
When the instructions talk about the motor brushes, what part are they actually refering to? This is really imporatnt because they recommend not to use more than a drop on the brushes
When the instructions talk about the motor bearings, what part are they actually refering to?

I  am pretty sure I know what to do with the jel (he says fully expecting a whole bunch of double entendres).

[CaptOblivious]

Can I ask some really basic questions?
When the instructions talk about the motor brushes, what part are they actually refering to? This is really imporatnt because they recommend not to use more than a drop on the brushes
When the instructions talk about the motor bearings, what part are they actually refering to?

The bearings are ball or roller bearings that support the axle. Take the motor out of the car, and where the axle meets the motor, that's where the bearings are. Oil right in that joint, being careful not to get any on the plastic bits.

The brushes are hard to see (I'm at work so I can't provide a photograph), but they're a fixed (as opposed to rotating) part of the motor that contacts the wire wrapped rotating core. They, despite the name, are made of carbon. Look through openings in the motor (Kato motors are pretty open, and so this shouldn't be a problem) for black chunks attached to the motor frame that rub against the wire wrappings. Since these wear over time, use a little compressed air to blow out any dust, then put just a small drop where the brush meets the wire. If you can't see the brush, you can probably make do with putting a drop on the wires. Anyway, rotate it several times at the axle with your fingers to distribute.

Also, I'd take apart and clean the gears in the bogies before lubing them, but that's just me. Mine pick up a lot of hair (both mine and my dogs) over a short time, and I like to remove all that occasionally. Anyway, you don't want to trap anything like that in a layer of grease.

Hope that helps! I'll see if I can get a pic or two up tonight if you need it.

[alpineaustralia]

In (say) the 500 series motor car that I have apart and which is in front of me now, the shafts on either end of the motor fit through a brass ring and are then connected to a black plastic cones which cup the drive shafts to each of the trucks at either end of the train.

I am not sure I follow you when you say "The bearings are ball or roller bearings that support the axle. Take the motor out of the car, and where the axle meets the motor, that's where the bearings are. Oil right in that joint, being careful not to get any on the plastic bits."

By Axle are you referring to the centre shaft of the motor, or the plastic drive shafts that connect on either side to the trucks? Are the bearings the brass ring? It doesnt look like roller bearings but rather a solid peice of brass.

As for the 2 black chunks attached to the motor walls, I see 2 large black chunks that do not actually touch the motor core but I figured these were the magnets and where not meant to have contact with the rotating motor core. I assume this is not what I am to lubricate. So are you instead referring to something at the base of the centre shaft (on the inside of the motor adjacent to where the electric pick ups meet the motor)?

I agree with your suggestion re pulling the gears apart. A bath of Iso-propyl alcohol followed by fresh gear jel. What truck gears wouldnt like that?

[CaptOblivious]

In (say) the 500 series motor car that I have apart and which is in front of me now, the shafts on either end of the motor fit through a brass ring and are then connected to a black plastic cones which cup the drive shafts to each of the trucks at either end of the train.

I am not sure I follow you when you say "The bearings are ball or roller bearings that support the axle. Take the motor out of the car, and where the axle meets the motor, that's where the bearings are. Oil right in that joint, being careful not to get any on the plastic bits."

By Axle are you referring to the centre shaft of the motor, or the plastic drive shafts that connect on either side to the trucks? Are the bearings the brass ring? It doesnt look like roller bearings but rather a solid peice of brass.

Sorry if I wasn't clear. I don't really know the proper terms for these things...anyway, your description is good. The bearings are part of the motor, behind the brass ring. You won't actually see them, but it's where the drive shaft comes out of the motor. It probably wouldn't hurt to lube the brass ring, too.

As for the 2 black chunks attached to the motor walls, I see 2 large black chunks that do not actually touch the motor core but I figured these were the magnets and where not meant to have contact with the rotating motor core. I assume this is not what I am to lubricate. So are you instead referring to something at the base of the centre shaft (on the inside of the motor adjacent to where the electric pick ups meet the motor)?

Hrm, I haven't had an opportunity to crack one of my shinkansen open to see. I have never actually lubed, let alone looked for this part before, so I can't comment. I'll see if I can do that tonight so I can advise you better?

I agree with your suggestion re pulling the gears apart. A bath of Iso-propyl alcohol followed by fresh gear jel. What truck gears wouldnt like that?

Sounds good!

[CaptOblivious]

So, here's a photo of the motor from my Kato E4?. The brushes are accessible through the hole indicated, and the bearings are the bit of the drive shaft that is circled. And your identification of the permanent magnets and how to treat them is spot-on. Anyway, sorry I wasn't terribly clear earlier! I hope this is helpful for you. Actually cracking the thing open and having a look-see for myself was really instructive for me, though.

[alpineaustralia]

you're a bloody champ!

[CaptOblivious]

you're a bloody champ!

That's good, right? You're welcome?  :P

[alpineaustralia]

This is how I recently lubricated a "squeely" motor carriage that I had on my Kato E1 Shinkansen. I used Aero Locomotive Lubricant Pak (thats the way they spelt it). See:  www.aerocarlubricants.com

You get 3 liquids:
1. a bottle of ACT 3753 Conducta which is to be used on the motor brushes;
2. a bottle of ACT 2112 Motor Bearing Lubricant which is to be used on the motor bearings; and
3. a jar of ACT 1111 NG Jel (Gear jel) which is to be used on gears.

What I did:

1.  Pull body away from underbody (fig. #1).

2. Pull plastic drive shaft guards off bottom of underbody to expose driveshafts and trucks (fig #2.)

3. Remove trucks from underbody (fig #3)

4. Remove the gear assembly of each truck by pressig down with your thumb on each of the clips holding the gear assembly on to each truck (fig #4)

[CaptOblivious]

Very nice! Perhaps we should have disassembly guides for all our trains? Its interested to note just how radically different my Kato E4 is from your Kato E1...

[alpineaustralia]

5. You can see the worm drive and the old oil and dust clogged onto it. You can also see to the left the gears that have been removed (fig 5).

6. Remove the drive shaft and worm drive by gently pulling it out of its recess. Take care not to lose the little brass bearing ring at the end that is not affixed.  (fig6).

7. Dismantle drive shaft, worm drive and the little brass bearing ring  (fig 7).

8. Place all parts into a bath of isopropyl alcohol to remove all old oil, grease, dust and fibres. (fig 8).

[alpineaustralia]

9. While the truck parts are enjoying their isopropyl alcohol bath, remove the motor and turn to its underside. The brushes are the small brass half rings at the base of the motor shaft.  You can just faintly see the reflection of the brass in the last small opening just opposite the brass electrical pick ups.  (fig 9.)

10. Conducta lube (fig 10.)

11. Apply ONLY ONE DROP of Conduct lube to each of the half rings at the base of the motor shaft. (fig 11.)

12. Take out the truck parts from their isopropyl alcohol bath and with a toothbrush brush clean all the old grime, oil etc off the truck parts. (fig 12.)

[alpineaustralia]

13 Motor bearing lubricant (fig 13).

14  Reinstall worm drive, brass ends and drive shaft.  Apply motor bearing lubricant to the brass ends on either side of the worm drive. (fig 14).

15 NG Gear lubricant Jel (love the colour!)  (fig 15).

16  Apply a small amount of  NG Gear lubricant Jel to the worm drive and the gears on the gear housing. Maually turn the gears to spread the jel between the gears and wipe off excess. (fig 16).

Reinstall parts in reverse order.

[CaptOblivious]

Wow :o Very nice pictorial, Alpine, and so helpful!

[Bernard]

Excellent step by step pictorial!! When I first had to take apart one of my Kato trains it was all guess work, I would have loved to had a tutorial like this when I first had to take it apart!

[alpineaustralia]

Many thanks guys. I found your pictorials in installing a decoder equally instructive and started me off.
Now i wish someone could help me with the directional head/tail lights which I just cant seem to get right.

[alpineaustralia]

This is how I recently lubricated a noisey motor carriage that I had on my Kato TGV PSE (10-198). This is quite an old set which I bought on Ebay and have reconditioned it. Again, I used the 3 lubricants that came with the Aero Locomotive Lubricant Pak (www.aerocarlubricants.com) consisting of:

1. a bottle of ACT 3753 Conducta which is to be used on the motor brushes (fig #1);
2. a bottle of ACT 2112 Motor Bearing Lubricant which is to be used on the motor bearings (fig #2); and
3. a jar of ACT 1111 NG Jel (Gear jel) which is to be used on gears (fig#3).

[alpineaustralia]

What I did:

1.  Pull body away from underbody and pull plastic drive shaft guards off bottom of underbody to expose driveshafts and trucks. I then removed the trucks from underbody(fig. #4)

2. Remove the gear assembly of each truck by pressing down with your fingernail on each of the clips holding the gear assembly on to each truck (fig #5)

3. This picture shows the bottom of the gear assembly of the truck coming away from the truck as I press down with my fingernail the clips holding the gear assembly to the truck (fig #6).

4.   Once the gear assembly has been removed from the truck, you can see the drive shaft held in place by two brass bearings, At the end of each shaft is a worm drive which drives a cog on each of the wheels held in place by the gear assembly that I removed (fig#7).

[alpineaustralia]

8. This figure shows the truck after removal of the gear assembly and one of the wheels (fig # 8).

9. Remove all items from the truck and place in a bath of  isopropyl alcohol (fig #9).

10.  While the truck parts are enjoying their isopropyl alcohol bath, remove the motor and turn to its underside. The brushes are the small brass half rings at the base of the motor shaft.  You can just faintly see the reflection of the brass in the last small opening just opposite the brass electrical pick ups.  (fig #10.)

11.  Apply ONLY ONE DROP of Conduct lube to each of the half rings at the base of the motor shaft. (fig #11.)

[alpineaustralia]

12.  Remove the items from the isopropyl alcohol bath and, with a toothbrush, clean the parts to remove any old oil, grease, grime etc. (fig #12).

13. Replace the drive shaft and worm drive into the truck making sure that each of the bearings sits in the little well that has been cast in the plastic for it.  Apply a drop or two of the green ACT 2112 Motor Bearing Lubricant to each of the bearings.You can be liberal with the lubricant here as the well will accept a small reserve of oil. (figs #13 and 14).

14. Using the applicator provided with the ACT 1111 NG Jel (Gear jel), apply a small amount of  NG Gear lubricant Jel to the worm drive and the gears on the gear housing. Maually turn the gears to spread the jel between the gears and wipe off excess. (fig 15).

[alpineaustralia]

15. The wheels are kept in place by copper "T" shaped brackets that pass current from the wheels to the body of the train. Place a few drops of ConductaLube in the wells into which the wheels sit to not only lubricate but also allow current to pass (figs #16 and 17).

16 Replace wheels and other parts in reverse order.
 

[Webskipper]

So a combination of Electrical Cleaners and Lubricants, and maybe some gun oil to keep the tracks clean are in order to keep on hand?

I like automatic transmission fluid to break up the gum and gunk and soak the rust off old parts. It's all detergent and 10W oil. Not a daily lubricant.

[alpineaustralia]

Gun oil and auto transmission fluid?

[Bernard]

Great post Maged! I have 2 noisy trains that I've lubricated and are still not any better. I have to try your method.

[Webskipper]

Gun oil and auto transmission fluid?

Gun oil is a metal cleaner designed to breakdown carbon deposits. We're not trying to blue the rails. :)

Use it liberally to test. Automatic Trans fluid is great for drowning rusty parts and its cheap. To each his own.

[FFISKIV]

I worked for a microscope dealer in sunnyvale, they were cheap and wouldn't purchase the recommended HIGH DOLLAR Olympus lubricants from japan so we used NYE gel instrument lubricant which looks suspiciously like the Aero Locomotive Lubricant stuff. 
Nye didn't work near as good as the real Olympus factory lubricants (which I use religiously now) so I use the NYE on all my RC planes, cars boats.
I never thought of it for trains as Rheolube from NYE has served me well. I also use Labelle 102 plastic compatible gear lubricant.

Here is the main NYE web site.
 http://www.nyelubricants.com/nye_news.shtml

Micromark sells some too.
http://www.micromark.com/Synthetic-Lubricant-Kit,8430.html

[mojo]

I have a couple of questions about cleaning and lubricating motors if you don't mind me asking :)

Can an ultrasonic cleaner be used on the bogies or the motor itself? Obviously it is going to need re-lubricating afterwards but ultrasonic cleaning is hard to beat for removing old and difficult to get at crud. Will lubricating just the bearings and brushes afterwards be enough for the motor, and the worm drive and gears for the rest?

My other question isn't really about lubrication, but is related. There is some grey stuff on the motor coil, solid and difficult to remove. Having said that it looks like some has come off at some point. I don't know what it is, some kind of grease that has set perhaps. It sits directly on the wire between the metal bits. Should I just ignore it or..?

[cteno4]

mojo

yes you can use an ultra sonic cleaner on trucks, truck parts and even motors. i use mine by putting the parts into those little plastic condiment holders with isopropanol and then floating that in my small ultrasonic cleaner.

motors i would only do as a last resort when they appear to have some real nasty stuff in them and are grinding. ive talked to folks that have actually gotten really old and grungy non running n scale motors and by soaking in some brake fluid and isopropanol getting them running well again.

cheers

jeff

[KenS]

Brake fluid will eat plastic very effectively (been there, done that), and most modern motors have plastic parts in them, so I wouldn't advise that particular solvent.  I bet it works really well on 60's era motors of steel and bakelite though.

[cteno4]

Yep thats why I mentioned it only for old an very grungy motors. Also a quick ultrasound in break fluid peobablt won't soften plastics much. That's the Bennie of the ultrasonic cleaner, much shorter times in the stuff.

Isopropanol is my solvent of choice for mechanism cleaning.

Jeff

[keitaro]

i got the aerocar lubricants last week not bad put on my gm models they are noticeably quieter still noist though 

but it is definately less.

[cteno4]

keitaro,

thanks for reminding me to get that set! i had found it at a dealer site and forgot to place the order. unfortunately aerocar's site wants to do cc w.o a secure server! i have a dozen trains that need overhaul here and want to do it before cherry blossom festival if possible.

jeff

[keitaro]

no worries it didn't help my MA locos. i guess they are just not good runners

[cteno4]

if you have run them for a while they may need to be cleaned out well. new ma if the growl i lube and they go quiet. i have had a couple of second hand ones that lubing alone did not solve the problem and i had to pull the trucks apart and clean them which is not fun as some ma trucks are a devil to pull apart, they seem to have used many different truck designs over the years! good cleaning and relubing has them running just like any kato or ma power unit.

jeff

[CaptOblivious]

I love my Aero lubricants; best of all, one set will last a lifetime!

[mojo]

Thanks, I will try ultrasonic cleaning on just the gearing but not the main motor, maybe in a iso bath. Reassuring to know I won't kill it. The Portram is more of a worry...

How about the grey stuff? I took a couple of pictures:

   

It is solid and hard to remove. I am concerned that the side where there isn't much of it might be unbalancing the whole thing.

[cteno4]

hmm that is snotty stuff! not sure exactly what that is. i have seen some motor windings painted with some paint, but this looks more like putty.

the new kato portrams are a whole nother story with the micro miniaturization they have and the integrated tiny can motor its going to be a challenge to work on them! im not sure how easily the motor comes out of the truck mechanism, i have yet to pull one apart and only looked at photos of the disassembly of one.

they were selling the powered trucks as spare parts for 1800Yen, but unfortunately they are completely sold out of them. they would be great to have for spares if they get killed in overhaul attempts or for kitbashing other interesting things with.

cheers

jeff

[KenS]

It may have been put there intentionally to balance the weight of the rotor.

I've never seen it on any of the Kato motors I've had apart, but that could be because they do a better job of balancing them, or conversely because they don't care about a small imbalance.

Motors spin at around 10,000 rpm at full speed, so an unbalaned rotor can cause a lot of vibration, leading to both noise and wear.

[Lawrence]

Must admit to being quite surprised at the mention of lubricating brushes, I was always under the impression you should never lubricate carbon brushes as it softens them and they deteriorate more quickly and that the carbon acts as a natural lubricant anyway.  I would be interested to see how this works in the longer term.

On ultrasonic cleaners, has anybody tried this one from Maplin  http://www.maplin.co.uk/ultra-7000-ultrasonic-cleaner-223108?c=froogle&u=223108&t=module any feedback on this or a better option would be welcome

[KenS]

Must admit to being quite surprised at the mention of lubricating brushes, I was always under the impression you should never lubricate carbon brushes as it softens them and they deteriorate more quickly and that the carbon acts as a natural lubricant anyway.  I would be interested to see how this works in the longer term.

I'm inclined to agree. Brushes are mostly carbon, and as they wear down they're essentially producing graphite, and self-lubricating.  Also, any lubricant used on the face has to be conductive to be effective, and if there's too much it could cause a short, so it's definitely something to be careful with.  On the other hand, brushes have to move freely in their mounting to follow any irregularity and to stay in contact as the face wears down.  It does make a bit of sense that that portion, particularly after cleaning, might have a need to be lubricated.

Caboose Hobbies has a tech tip that suggests that the real issue is cleaning the commutator of "gunk" that builds up to maintain good conductivity, and that Atlas "Conducta-lube" is both a cleaner and a lubricant:

http://www.caboosehobbies.com/catalog/techtips.php?techtip_id=3

It also suggests that other substances (like track cleaner) can work, and that burnishing the commutator with a stick of balsa after applying the cleaner is a good idea.  This is probably more useful advice for large-scale motors, which are easier to disassemble. But I believe at least some Kato motors have replaceable brushes, although I've never tried to take one apart.

[Lawrence]

I certainly remember cleaning the commutator from my motor & generator training days but not the brushes, we always just wiped them with a paper towel (ok they were a bit bigger than N scale  ) certainly were always warned about keeping the brushes away from any contaminants.

[CaptOblivious]

Having seen Caboose Hobbies's repair department in person, I'm inclined to accept their advice…It's quite a large operation.

[Lawrence]

Having seen Caboose Hobbies's repair department in person, I'm inclined to accept their advice…It's quite a large operation.

So was the Royal Air Force  , but I'm sure they wouldn't recommend it if there wasn't some merit in it

[keitaro]

so you don't need to lube the flywheel? or if you can what one to use? not that mine do but surely they must get dirty or dry in there ?