Tomix: The Great Debate

I've decided to move and change the topic to "Tomix: The Great debate" and not limit to DCC. I hope we can have a lively and friendly discussion.

 

 

Why is it that you always have to make disparaging remarks against Tomix ?

 

From my experience and that of many other modelling friends, their releases are usually as good or sometimes better than those from the other major brands.

Hi Hezekiah - I don't want to hijack the "Tomix 209 Growling thread" so I'm starting a new one, even though members here have debated this issue in previous threads but I feel I need to answer your question about "disparaging remarks against Tomix."

I'm one of the modelers who has been outspoken about the problems I've had with Tomix. True Tomix makes some great models and offers some Prototypes that other manufactures don't make. Their new Tomix N700 by most modelers accounts is superior to the Kato version. Here is Doug Costner's detailed review on the train:

http://jmtn.wordpress.com/2009/01/14/tomix-n700-shinkansen-model-review/

http://jmtn.wordpress.com/2007/12/22/kato-n700-shinkansen-model-review/

From what I've read from other modelers, you can even include the Tomix C-57.

It's converting to DCC that is the main issue and that's where Tomix is behind Kato and even MicroAce.

Kato took in account DCC for the international market when it designed their trains. They offer plug & play or slide in decoders for their models. And the majority of their models are easy to convert to DCC.

CaptO even has a few threads here about which trains are DCC friendly. Here is just one:

http://www.jnsforum.com/index.php/topic,854.0.html

Kato even offers diagrams on their website on how to convert their trains.

As I see it, Tomix caters to the needs of the Japanese market where DCC is not as popular. It's the modelers who have a DCC layout that have the problems. Yes, you can convert a Tomix train to DCC but it takes a lot of work (which might include milling out parts of the chassis to fit in a decoder)

On a personal note I have been able to convert all except one of my Kato trains to DCC. (the Kato C57 but I'm working on it)

My success ratio with Tomix isn't as great.

 

As I see it, Tomix caters to the needs of the Japanese market where DCC is not as popular. It's the modelers who have a DCC layout that have the problems. Yes, you can convert a Tomix train to DCC but it takes a lot of work (which might include milling out parts of the chassis to fit in a decoder)

On a personal note I have been able to convert all except one of my Kato trains to DCC. (the Kato C57 but I'm working on it)

My success ratio with Tomix isn't as great.

DCC is not relevant to the way Japanese modelers run their trains.  Usually this is on large loops with many trains running all at once--very much like what you see at major train stations in Tokyo.  Takara-Tomy shows little interest in export markets for its Tomix brand.

I can blame all of my Tomix experiences with an alloy chassis. With all my other installs, there has been solder-able metal surfaces to ensure a connection to... with my Tomix installs I've either had to jam wires in or tape wires to the chassis.

Due to these dodgy connections, I can assure you that there would not be a constant connection.

And that's my 2c as to why your Tomix engines wont perform as well on DCC.

 

 

DCC is not relevant to the way Japanese modelers run their trains.  Usually this is on large loops with many trains running all at once--very much like what you see at major train stations in Tokyo.  Takara-Tomy shows little interest in export markets for its Tomix brand.

I agree with you Bill, as I see it Tomix is really looking primarily at the Japanese market more than the international one.

I'm basically answering Hezekiah's question about the negativity towards Tomix, and if I were running DC I probably wouldn't have any problems with running them and would purchase more from them. But since I am running DCC, Tomix just isn't as DCC friendly as other brands.

Some people have just had bad luck with Tomix, and because of that they're reluctant buying Tomix again. I've had trains from the 3 main brands that had issues, and I've had trains from Fleischmann, Minitrix and even Marklin perform terribly. If I'd decide to not buy a brand anymore because of a couple of bad items, I guess I wouldn't be buying any trains anymore, or possibly Lenz 0 gauge ;)

As for DCC, I sorta enjoy fiddling around with decoder installs, so I don't mind it that much when it's difficult. What I've been pretty vocal about though, is that there's no reason why Tomix locomotives should fail to run when converted to DCC.

I can blame all of my Tomix experiences with an alloy chassis. With all my other installs, there has been solder-able metal surfaces to ensure a connection to... with my Tomix installs I've either had to jam wires in or tape wires to the chassis.

It's not just Tomix that has that kind of chassis. Kato's C57 for example has the same construction, and I believe MicroAce's DD16 is a split frame as well. The thing is, it's not impossible to solder directly on those frames, but the metal they're made of is very good at dissipating heat, which generally means your soldering iron will be heating the entire frame rather than just the little spot near the tip of the soldering iron. A very strong soldering iron or high power soldering gun should work. In my case, I drill some holes in the chassis halves, tap those holes, and put in some small screws with wires soldered to them. It's a bit of work, but it's a reliable connection. Only problem is that the tap can break easily, and taps that small are expensive.

But Marti, aren't "All your trains gone" and you have to start your collection all over again?

(You knew that thread of yours was going to haunt you! :laughing6:)

But Marti, aren't "All your trains gone" and you have to start your collection all over again?

(You knew that thread of yours was going to haunt you! :laughing6:)

Hehe.. Well, I already have a MicroAce 100-9000 X1 and a Tomix C57 which were delivered to The Netherlands, so it's a start =)

I gotta admit, I do like how TOMIX has made recent shinkansens with all-wheel pickup and I like the Romance50k set, still don't want to risk it. But to be honest, from my observations of personal, and club trains, I just don't think the TOMIX runs as smoothly as the KATO, but that's just me. 

My opinion is positive about Tomix with the exception of the frequent 'coughing' that occurs with certain sets. Plus the only running in one direction which is a real pain in the a$$....

but their shinkansen sets run quite well alongside Kato.

DCC is not relevant to the way Japanese modelers run their trains.  Usually this is on large loops with many trains running all at once--very much like what you see at major train stations in Tokyo.  Takara-Tomy shows little interest in export markets for its Tomix brand.

To me that sounds like a perfect situation for a computer controlled setup, thus requiring DCC or any other Digital system :-).

/Magnus M

DCC is not relevant to the way Japanese modelers run their trains.  Usually this is on large loops with many trains running all at once--very much like what you see at major train stations in Tokyo.  Takara-Tomy shows little interest in export markets for its Tomix brand.

 

To me that sounds like a perfect situation for a computer controlled setup, thus requiring DCC or any other Digital system :-).

Not exactly, as most Japanese set up a temporary layout, rather then build a permanent one. They also tend to switch trains more often, thus one has a quite thriving business in 2nd hand trains.

Personally I'm more of a TOMIX guy. They have more interesting models and the only KATO I own are some freight wagons, a Hankyu 6300-series 8-car set and a JNR 117-series 4-car set. Both run as well as my TOMIX stuff, though seem to be a bir quieter. The sound doesn't really bother me as I only run switching operations. Still, nothing I've met from Japan exceeds the quality of MICROACE

To me that sounds like a perfect situation for a computer controlled setup, thus requiring DCC or any other Digital system :-).

 

Not exactly, as most Japanese set up a temporary layout, rather then build a permanent one.

Well people keep telling me that. But I am sorry :-) I dont get it. To me it still sounds like temporay layouts should be easier and more fun to setup and operate using a digital system. And building a switch board in TrainController is fast and easy so adding computer controll isn't hard.

But I guess I have to admit that it is above me, and that I will never understand it (and stop pestering you about it :-)

Regards

Magnus M

Hmm... Maybe see it as a cultural difference. Model trains are quite traditional in Japan, so I don't think they'll switch to digital very soon. Most of the railways are based on passenger transport and thus modelling doesn't involve much switching action. Most Japanese, as I see it, like to run their trains and watch them run, relax, drink a beer, rather then switch intensively as we in the 'west' like to do. What we see on the internet isn't what the gross of the model training population does, in contrary to the west. Here model training is seen as a serious hobby and not a collection-based one. In relative comparison, probably, buying trains in Japan is like buying comics in the west. Prices are lower in Japan and income is higher, thus a relatively easy to access hobby. Here, in Europe especially, it's quite the other way around. Lower incomes and higher prices, even not relative to one another.

Also, I don't think everybody is wanting to give up his/her large collection for a switch to DCC. It's up to the manufacturers if they want to introduce DCC as an option, not the modellers, as they keep buying and buying into infinity; the first releases are mostly instant sold-outs like tickets for a football match or a limited collection at H&M's. In Japan: new = good! When it's good = buy! This how an extreme consumerist nation state like Japan works. And it works all too well there. :)

A different consumer mentality requires a different approach in how manufacturers will handle this.

Another example is the car market in Japan. The largest part of what is released in Japan isn't exported or marketed overseas. Some of the models just wouldn't appeal overseas. Just look at the lineup of Toyota in Japan: http://toyota.jp/carlineup/index.html not much of that is released abroad. As is the same with actually other parts of the world. US cars just don't sell well in Europe, no matter how they try: they are made by US standards, as is the same with EU cars in the US.

Ah well, I'm wandering off...

Ah well, I'm wandering off...

Perhaps, but it is certainly helping me understanding :-).

/Magnus M

All I want to say here is that most people's negative experiences seem to be 'Tomix' versus 'DCC'. As has already be said, Tomix do not seem interested in catering for DCC, so if you try to convert one of their trains to DCC, then that is doing something with their product that they never intended.

So it seems that Tomix products are not condusive to conversion to DCC - in that case, don't buy them and try to do it. If it all works out, well and good, however if you stuff it up, then that is not Tomix's fault, and you have no grounds at all to say anything negative about Tomix because of your own lack of skill, knowledge, whatever. Just stick with Kato's limited "DCC Friendly" releases, then you won't have anything to complain about 

Of course the same logic applies to any other brand, whether it is Atlas, Life-Like, Fleishmann, Dapol etc etc etc as well that has to be converted by yourself doing cutting, soldering etc etc etc, so lets not single out Tomy as the 'only' brand that is no good.

Ah well, I'm wandering off...

 

Perhaps, but it is certainly helping me understanding :-).

That's nice to hear. Then my rambling did help a bit :)

Yes but technology is advancing and isn't it up to the manufacturers to keep up with that technology? There are many analogies I could use but for this sake lets take the cellphone. When they first came out they where as big and heavy as a women's pocketbook, (I once had to find something in my wife's and its like taking a trek through a tropical rain forest ) with limited range, today they're small enough to fit in your pocket and you can call anywhere around the world.

Believe me after reading Doug Costner's review and speaking with Jeff & Marti here about the Tomix N700 with it's new pick-up system, which I look at as an advancement in technology and design, couldn't Tomix have taken it one step further and added a "Plug & Play" device for a decoder on that train? This way they could have made both the DC & DCC modelers happy.

All I want to say here is that most people's negative experiences seem to be 'Tomix' versus 'DCC'. As has already be said, Tomix do not seem interested in catering for DCC, so if you try to convert one of their trains to DCC, then that is doing something with their product that they never intended.

 

So it seems that Tomix products are not condusive to conversion to DCC - in that case, don't buy them and try to do it. If it all works out, well and good, however if you stuff it up, then that is not Tomix's fault, and you have no grounds at all to say anything negative about Tomix because of your own lack of skill, knowledge, whatever. Just stick with Kato's limited "DCC Friendly" releases, then you won't have anything to complain about  

 

Of course the same logic applies to any other brand, whether it is Atlas, Life-Like, Fleishmann, Dapol etc etc etc as well that has to be converted by yourself doing cutting, soldering etc etc etc, so lets not single out Tomy as the 'only' brand that is no good.

Believe me after reading Doug Costner's review and speaking with Jeff & Marti here about the Tomix N700 with it's new pick-up system, which I look at as an advancement in technology and design, couldn't Tomix have taken it one step further and added a "Plug & Play" device for a decoder on that train? This way they could have made both the DC & DCC modelers happy.

Hmmm... Maybe they're secretly developing a DCC system of their own. That would be awesome and probably cheaper then any other system if they use the same philosophy as with the Diorama Collection items. Too bad it will require large investments from the modellers to change to DCC as one cannot step into DCC gradually.

Hmmm... Maybe they're secretly developing a DCC system of their own. That would be awesome and probably cheaper then any other system if they use the same philosophy as with the Diorama Collection items. Too bad it will require large investments from the modellers to change to DCC as one cannot step into DCC gradually.

Well lets say they are going to develop their own digital control system. DCC has a quite long history and technically it is very outdated and a flawed design by todays standards. If you start from scratch with 2009 technology a much better system could be realized. It would even be possible to have a better compatiblity to DC. Just think that Tomix constant lighting also doesn't affect their Motors negatively. So using the CL frequency for Control could enable coexistence of dc and digital control.

Believe me after reading Doug Costner's review and speaking with Jeff & Marti here about the Tomix N700 with it's new pick-up system, which I look at as an advancement in technology and design, couldn't Tomix have taken it one step further and added a "Plug & Play" device for a decoder on that train? This way they could have made both the DC & DCC modelers happy.

 

Hmmm... Maybe they're secretly developing a DCC system of their own. That would be awesome and probably cheaper then any other system if they use the same philosophy as with the Diorama Collection items. Too bad it will require large investments from the modellers to change to DCC as one cannot step into DCC gradually.

I've been converting to DCC since 1997, if that's not gradual I don't know what is. The only major immediate investment needed when converting to DCC is the command station and most DCC manufacturers have full featured starter sets from $150 or less, when I started you were looking at about $600. There is no need to convert every loco you own right from the start, start with a few that you run most often and then do one or two at a time as you can afford the finance and the time. I have my layout and the club's set up to run either or both as required.

Do we really want Tomix to develop their own DCC system that may be incompatible with the existing standards and put them even further out on their own?

hey hey,

I feel like many of you are missing the point..

Tomix has no interest or stock in investing in the international market (at least at this time).. We all know that.  This is why we have to buy our trains from places like Ebay and HWJapan..

Until Japan starts demanding DCC, Tomix has no interest.  If Japan starts running DCC, you bet your butt Tomix will comply.. Adding DCC will add to manufacturing costs, which will lead to increased price of the product.. and if 90% of Tomix consumer base doesn't run DCC.. they don't want to pay for it..

Tomix isn't running behind with technology, they are just on a different path, a path based on their consumers.  Those swanky TCS controllers look really fun.  To me that looks like more fun and more interactive than pushing buttons on a little DCC unit.

Right or wrong, the end point is that Tomix is giving the Japanese consumers what they want.. and the Japanese model railroaders are dictating that market.

Jon

(who currently only runs DC but is looking into DCC or Computer Controls)

Okay, I'm going to digress from the DCC issue with Tomix and go to another area that I have to feel even the Japanese market might have some displeasure about.

On my roster there are 3 Tomix trains that have the same mechanics inside, a "spring worm" that drives the gears in the trucks of the trains. Here are Photos of the 3 trains, the ED76, the Nagoya 7000 and this one (forgot name)

My first Tomix was the ED76 and when I first ran it on my DC test track, it was loud. I opened it up to lubricate the parts only to find this spring worm. To my surprise all it was, was a spring that Tomix expanded at the points where the spring meets the top gear in the truck to make it turn, in reality it was a true worm at all. No wonder the train was loud, there was a lot of grinding going on and eventually will wear the gear down.

One major difference is that Kato uses a drive shaft that connects from the motor to the gears in the trucks that spin them. (Photos of the spring worm & motor, Tomix truck, and chassis without trucks on.)

Because I like the next 2 Tomix sets I purchased I thought they must have re-tooled & re-designed the inner workings of their models but on these 2 sets it was exactly the same. By accident I ordered an 800 Shinkansen and realized too late that I placed the order for the Tomix version and not the Kato. To my great surprise, Tomix changed the drive system on this train and I was happy BUT can you see that to me it's like a "crap-shoot" when ordering a Tomix train, I never know what I'm going to get as a driving mechanism.

Right now I really like the Tomix Odakyu 50000 Romance train BUT which drive system will come with it if I decide to get it??

Hezehiak - In anther post you stated that Tomix is the #1 as a seller with the people in Japan, but resting on your past reputation doesn't always mean you're going to stay the best if you don't make advances or modifications with your product.

Spring drive is evil.

Ok, getting back on topic and away from DCC. Though I'll buy from any Japanese manufacturer, (most US N scale manufacturers could take lessons from any of them), if Kato makes the model I want as well as someone else I'll go with Kato every time. I've always felt Tomix mechanisms weren't made with the same degree of precision as Kato's and the detail was not quite as fine. Kato's slogan "Precision Railroad Models" IMHO is not just idle boasting, Tomix being the No.1 seller in Japan may be more a case of mass production in China and getting more product to market. I look at Tomix as being the Atlas of Japan, and Kato, well they're Kato.

Ok, getting back on topic and away from DCC. Though I'll buy from any Japanese manufacturer, (most US N scale manufacturers could take lessons from any of them), if Kato makes the model I want as well as someone else I'll go with Kato every time. I've always felt Tomix mechanisms weren't made with the same degree of precision as Kato's and the detail was not quite as fine. Kato's slogan "Precision Railroad Models" IMHO is not just idle boasting, Tomix being the No.1 seller in Japan may be more a case of mass production in China and getting more product to market. I look at Tomix as being the Atlas of Japan, and Kato, well they're Kato.

I would say TOMIX is more like the Athern of Japanese trains than Atlas.