Pushing TCS

[velotrain]

This is intended for tram layouts, but also has potential application to subway and commuter train operations. 

 

I have seen the video of Rich K "tricking" TCS to run around three urban blocks.

 

I was interested in trying to modify Mode 5, which successively runs three trams/trains from their own tracks in a "storage" area, to a single track, before reversing and returning.  I wondered if it would be possible to run them to three separate tracks, to allow simulation of three different routes radiating out from a central hub, or yard.

 

I knew that two sensors could be jumped, and saw no reason I couldn't have the 5563 fire two turnouts instead of one.  I have some power cable splitters on order, and had planned to shave the small "rib" off them, so I could insert them in the TCS turnout sockets.  I do know not to insert turnout plugs into power sockets ;-)

 

However, I had planned a trip to Artisan's Asylum for their Wednesday evening electronics drop-in session, and decided to bring along four turnouts.  I haven't done any electronics work in well over a decade - including basic soldering, so wanted to have some guidance available if necessary.

 

At first I thought I'd need some similar connectors, but then realized I could just cut the wires maybe 8" from the connector, and solder the wires from two turnouts to the connector wire - making sure I had the same wire in all cases; the white line on one helps.

 

I had seen sensor cables used to jump two sensor units, which each have two sockets, but wasn't sure that it would work with three - in a daisy-chain manner.  I was pleasantly surprised when everything worked as I had hoped.

 

Driving home I started wondering if something similar couldn't be done with the other modes - the switchback run of mode 3 doubled in length by using power cable splitters and cloning everything in the diagram.  I think this could also work with modes 7 & 8, but would need to test to verify; the other modes don't interest me.

 

I did have sporadic problems with a turnout physically throwing, but the power not being routed to the selected track.  I immediately associated this with kvp's suggestion of the turnout overheating.  I added about 15 seconds pause time and that seemed to take care of it.  However, I'm now wondering if perhaps not all Tomix turnouts are created  equal, as some appear to have consistent problems in this area, while others don't seem to be impacted.

 

https://youtu.be/oOZHuzbW-N4

 

 

[mrp]

Nicely done.

 

 

I did have sporadic problems with a turnout physically throwing, but the power not being routed to the selected track. 

 

 

I also see this with some specific Tomix turnouts using my own driver circuitry.  I changed my logic to only throw turnouts sequentially with a small delay between each switch (so that storage capacitors had a chance to recharge and to reduce the voltage drop across the driver IC) - and I increased the pulse width out to 200ms - and that seemed to help.  Unfortunately you can’t make those types of adjustments with the 5563, so I’m not sure what would be the most reliable way to switch more than one turnout at the same time.  At some point I’ll probably have to bite the bullet and disassemble one of my troublesome turnouts to see if the internal contacts need cleaning or re-aligning.

[velotrain]

Thanks!  I've made a lot of progress since when I thought I had a bad unit ;-)

 

What is hard to know is if some turnouts - for whatever reason - are more prone to this sort of failure.  It could well be that others would soon exhibit the same symptoms if these hadn't failed first.

 

kvp told me that I should just let the 5563 do its thing, and not to consider inserting my own capacitor discharge unit (or anything !) between the 5563 and any other Tomix product.

 

I don't know if you encounter this, but both Rich and I will have times when the tram needs a little nudge when it's their time to run - sort of like they go to sleep.

I find this irritating, as I had hoped to be able to use TCS for unattended operation at shows.  Do you know what will happen if it expects a tram / train to be running, but it isn't?  I would hope for a "soft" shutdown at some point.  Or - does it keep waiting for the next sensor to be triggered?

 

I've come to realize that TCS expects certain inputs and outputs to be connected (correctly), based on the mode selected, when you turn the power on.  If it doesn't find what it expected, either nothing - or the wrong thing, will happen.

 

However, it doesn't know / care if you have something additional connected, so long as you obey the rules of the selected program.  

 

This knowledge can be dangerous ;-)

[mrp]

I don't know if you encounter this, but both Rich and I will have times when the tram needs a little nudge when it's their time to run - sort of like they go to sleep.

 

When they’re waiting for the nudge, are the lights on?  If not then I guess power isn’t making it’s way up from the tracks, which usually points to some dirt or dust on the tracks, wheels or contact springs.  I’m always surprised how often I need to clean the wheels and rails to prevent this type of problem - even when they look spotless.

 

To double-check that it isn’t some type of logic issue you could run a multimeter across the rails while the tram is "sleeping" and confirm that power is there.

[velotrain]

I can't recall if I've looked for lights or not, but I usually notice it when the directional arrow is lit, but there's nothing moving.

 

I'll try to monitor this.

 

It may be the same issue of the points being set, but no electrical power contact - although, in that case the nudge wouldn't help.

[kvp]

This nudge means a pickup problem. Cleaner tracks and wheels usually solve it. Dust in the turnouts can be a problem too.

 

The TCS unit is dumb, it just checks sensors when it has to and emits turnout pulses with the polarity it is programmed to when is prgrammed to do it. Very much like a punch card system. TCS input waits are indefinite to account for larger layouts.

[velotrain]

Well - my excitement is at least momentarily curtailed.  I don't know if it is possible to clone mode 3 for a longer switchback run.

 

I just tried using mode 6 with two or three stops.  With three stops, the tram would consistently stop at every second set of sensors - this might be interesting on a system with "request stops".  With two stops, it was much more erratic - sometimes coasting, sometimes stopping abruptly at the second sensor, and other times ignoring both sensors at one stop or the other.  I couldn't detect any pattern to it.  I think it's safe to say that TCS was confused by the arrangement.  More likely, it was doing exactly what it's programmed to do, but appearing unscrutable to me.

 

I had cooked up an ambitious idea for a Tanden Kitano layout, but based on my results with mode 6, now doubt that it would work with TCS as I envisioned it.  My thought had been a small layout with both a two-track station and a single track station, and a siding behind the skyboard - allowing the operating sequence to work.

 

My absolute favorite station on the Kitano branch is Utano, partly due to the two types of station shelters there, and the stepped walkway, but also the way a road crosses at track level to the west, but then another road crosses over the track a long block away on the east side - not to mention how the old westbound platform, from double-track days, is now overgrown.

 

 

 

I really like the neighborhood around Omuroninnaji station, and it appeals to me more than the other two-track stations on the line.  Both stations have a bit of a suburban air to them, while all the others are decidedly urban.

 

 

 

I tried AnyRail, and it is a great program, although I would have used flex outside of the turnouts, and I might substitute R280 turnouts - but trimming the ends of them for closer track spacing.  I removed the non-siding turnouts from the staging area, deciding that it would just be simpler to replace the trams on the "active" track by hand - while in station delay mode.  I split it into two "layouts", as I didn't think the trial use would allow all the track segments that I needed.

 

 

 

The operational cycle would start with two trams at Omuroninnaji station.  TCS mode 8 would theoretically follow this sequence:

 

1. Tram on inside track runs to Utano.  Since there are two pairs of turnouts to throw, I don't think TCS would be aware that there aren't any here.  I did toy with the idea of "dummy turnouts", hidden below the layout, but three turnouts might be really pushing the 5563's capacitor capabilities.  You would need to use two sets of sensors, but these could be spotted for the offset platforms.  My research indicates that TCS only "activates" a sensor that it expects, and ignores any others that a tram may pass over.

 

2.  Tram on outside track runs to staging.

 

3.  Tram at Utano runs to staging.

 

4.  First tram in staging runs to Utano.

 

5.  Second tram in staging runs to Omuroninnaji.

 

6.  Tram at Utano runs to Omuroninnaji, and the cycle starts again.

 

As mentioned above, I'm now skeptical that this would work, based on my experience with mode 6.  However, I've since wondered to what extent the location of the power feed plays a role, and whether additional power feeds would help (or just confuse TCS further).  I'll try this when I get my power splitter cables. 

 

I just realized something - the sensors can be jumped in parallel, but not serially!  In one situation, TCS isn't aware of the extra sensors, while in the other it is.  However, I'm still curious if cloning the power supply has any impact.

 

Of course, this layout could be used with manual control, but I suspect that would quickly become tedious.  Or, it could be automated for Omuroninnaji station, with no siding behind the skyboard, and Utano becomes a flag stop ;-)

 

kvp and mrp are welcome to comment.

 

Actually - all are welcome to comment, but they seem to be the ones with TCS knowledge.

[katoftw]

I think you are at a point you need to move away from the TCS as it is a too simple program device for what you are trying to archive.

[velotrain]

I didn't really have any particular expectations of it, but after being able to tweak mode 5, I was curious what else I could get away with.

 

At this point, I'm not interested in working with Arduino or other more sophisticated devices.

 

I did allow myself to get infatuated with the Tanden Kitano idea, but have plenty of other WIP to complete before seriously considering yet another layout.

 

Like others here, I have a long history of starting many projects and finishing few, so am trying not to start anything new unless I am committed to completion - sooner or later;-)

[kvp]

Actually all TCS sensors are active, but the controller only watches the one that is expected to be triggered. This avoids false signals during the time a train is starting above a previously activated one. (which actually retriggers it as the train speeds away) The TCS always ignores the sensors that were triggered in the previous step to avoid spurious retriggers, but signals from other sensors could (depending on the program) cause a fast forward in the sequencer. (a sudden stop and jump to another step of the program)

 

The actual problem with the setup above is the power routing used to select which train is running. If you just power the layout at the single feed point as the instructions show, then the single track stop will remain powered when the other train is running. One possible way to handle this is to have only two double track stations with the sensors daisy chained in pairs. This will mean:

-tram 1 runs from A to B

-tram 2 runs from A to B

-tram 1 runs from B to A

-tram 2 runs from B to A

So in short, making the single track station a (non automated) flag stop will work indeed and it's easy to assemble.

 

An alternative way would be to copy the traction voltage to the single track C station from one of the double track stations, with two diodes added per direction. This means track 1 at station A could could power the track at station C only in one direction, while track 2 at station A could power the track at station C only in the other direction. The single track station C has to be isolated from the mainline and power fed to it by gathering the two polarities from the two station tracks at station A. Power to the layout should be fed only at a single point on the mainline and the turnouts take care of the direction selection. The power feeds at station A or B will serve as pickups for station C (through the diodes), the 6 sensors can be daisy chained in pairs. Just watch the sensor polarities at station C. The diodes can be soldered to a small raster board and the pickups just plugged into the pins added to this board. The solution needs 4 feeder connectors. (1 to power the main, 2 to get direction dependent power and the 4th to feed this to the single track station)

 

 

I think you are at a point you need to move away from the TCS as it is a too simple program device for what you are trying to archive.

Yes, it seems that instead of hacking the simple programs in the TCS, using a more advanced system would be much easier and faster. Both MRP-s and in fact any simple arduino based system would work. (you can actually connect a TCS sensor to an 5V arduino as two simple pushbuttons running on the arduino's internal pullups and there are lots of DC motor driver shields for it) But to use these alternaties, you either need a computer or in case of the arduino, you have to know how to program.

 

By the way, i'm preparing a turorial on the latter (easy TCS with the Arduino), but didn't really have the time to assemble the demonstration circuits. I plan to do it as a kind of building blocks, so there will be a TCS sensor block, a turnout control block and a PWM motor driver block and all control should be doable with three commands only: digitalRead() for the sensors, digitalWrite() for the turnout drivers and analogWrite() for the PWM drivers.

[Kabutoni]

To bring in something interesting, here is a video of a channel I'm following on YouTube:

 

 

Simultaneously running trams on partial single track with the need of some timing.

Edited April 10, 2015 by Toni Babelony

[velotrain]

I find it frustrating Toni, as I see the TCS unit, but have no sense of what it is doing and what he is controlling manually.  I didn't have the sound on, but perhaps he explains this in Japanese.  I'm guessing the timing has to do with the crossings, as TCS has no knowledge of them.

 

Perhaps TCS is running one train, and the other is entirely manually, as I don't believe that power pack he's using is TCS compatible.

 

At this point I'm just investigating what can be done with the unit in a hands-off manner.  I'm fine with manual operation, but curious just how far the stock 5563 can be pushed.

[velotrain]

Well - I see the power light on the 5563 come on when he turns the pack on, and the direction arrow when he applies power.

 

I can't recall the source, but was told or read that the N-400 was not a TCS pack, while the N-600 was.

[mrp]

I'm guessing the timing has to do with the crossings, as TCS has no knowledge of them.

 

I’m think maybe he’s set it up so that the tram that stops first each time is running over an isolator to an unpowered section of track (unpowered because the following power-routing turnout is switched the other way).  Then the second train stops at its sensor - controlled by TCS.  If you look closely, those first stops don’t seem to have any sensors at all.

 

Edit: Actually it’s probably an Insulating Joiner on one of the rails.  I think you can just make it out in the video.

 

 

Edited April 11, 2015 by mrp

[Kabutoni]

Yes, it's isolated tracks that can be powered by throwing the points in the correct direction.

 

With this in mind, you have a mountain of new opportunities for automated operations for 2+ trains. The TCS automated unit has no intelligence, as it's more a big calculator with a few different sequenced outputs that are regulated by the input of TCS sensors, program of choice, and timers.

 

Also, the Tomix N-400 is not a TCS unit with output for points, but it DOES have a TCS output for the TCS automated unit.

 

Here is another fun setup: http://rtmrw.parallel.jp/laboratory/lab-report-04/lab-04.html

 

I've also been thinking of obtaining a TCS automated unit, as there are legions of options with isolated track and the Tomix 1423 buffer. This buffer stops the power once a train has pushed against the block (only when directly connected to a DC feeder). It returns power when the DC flow is reversed, much like a track that is isolated with a diode, but this option allows any train independent of where the powered car is.

[mrp]

I've also been thinking of obtaining a TCS automated unit, as there are legions of options with isolated track and the Tomix 1423 buffer. This buffer stops the power once a train has pushed against the block (only when directly connected to a DC feeder). It returns power when the DC flow is reversed, much like a track that is isolated with a diode, but this option allows any train independent of where the powered car is.

 

Are you sure it does that?  I can’t see it anywhere in the description.  It’s a great idea if it does.  Guess I’ll have to get one to try.

[Kabutoni]

Are you sure it does that?  I can’t see it anywhere in the description.  It’s a great idea if it does.  Guess I’ll have to get one to try.

 

One page beyond an extensive report on how to make use of this feature, plus video: http://www.tomytec.co.jp/tomix/report/n/nj_039.htm It's a bit in the 'forgotten' realm of the Tomix website, so it's pretty outdated material, plus pages on that part of the website don't function properly.

[mrp]

One page beyond an extensive report on how to make use of this feature, plus video: http://www.tomytec.co.jp/tomix/report/n/nj_039.htm It's a bit in the 'forgotten' realm of the Tomix website, so it's pretty outdated material, plus pages on that part of the website don't function properly.

 

Wow, good find!  You’d think a buffer that automatically disconnects power like that would be more popular - specially one that automatically “recovers” when power is reversed - but I can’t find any examples of it being used on YouTube or in any blogs.  I’ll definitely be getting one or two to try.

[velotrain]

 This buffer stops the power once a train has pushed against the block (only when directly connected to a DC feeder). It returns power when the DC flow is reversed, much like a track that is isolated with a diode, but this option allows any train independent of where the powered car is.

 

I'm not understanding the benefit of this - unless it's the last phrase.  

 

Unless the DC flow is reversed automatically somehow, what's the difference between just doing this manually?

[velotrain]

This has nothing to do with TCS, but I have some questions about Utano station, although I'm not sure anyone would have answers.

 

I've noticed what looked like an old westbound platform opposite the current eastbound platform, but it's clearly been overgrown for decades.  It's at a lower level, so wondered if anyone knows if this line might have formerly been run with low-entry cars?

 

 

 

 

I've noticed that the power poles in the area of the station suggest that it was previously double-tracked here.  I just came across this B&W photo, which I'm guessing is from the 60's - 70's. 

 

 

 

 

 

It shows the original wooden poles, and they also are spaced for double track, although it was clearly single-tracked sometime before this picture was taken.  One thing I notice is that the station platform slab could have been laid directly over a lower one.

 

Why wouldn't they have spaced the new metal poles and overhead system for single track?  Did they keep the spacing just in case they again wanted to double-track the station at some point in the future?  The narrowness of the concrete tunnel under the current road bridge makes me think that this would be very difficult to do - approaching impossible.  Would it have been easier to replace the wooden poles by keeping the same spacing?

 

I also ran across a note, associated with the B&W photo, suggesting that the station name was somewhat recently changed to Utano.  Is there any way to discover what the original name was, so I could possibly look for photos of when it was double-tracked?

 

[kvp]

Many older streetcar stations had lower level platforms that were raised when high platform stock was purchased. In case of this station, the line was single tracked but the station had a bypass track as others do. When the tram frequency is decreased or stations are moved some of the bypass points can be removed, but it doesn't mean anyone is willing to redesign the overhead suspension to follow the change.

 

The directional stop buffers work with a diode and a mechanical end switch and come pretty handy with hidden or hard to see yards where the trains don't have too much room. A train can be sent in the yard, stops without the driver checking and can be later pulled out by selecting the track and reversing the power. It also prevents wrong direction accidents during departure. Traction power must be taken after the track's power routing turnout but before the isolated section.

 

Btw the trick with the isolated sections on the two tram video is that the route is shorter for the trams stopping on the isolated sections, so the TCS sensors are always triggered later.

 

What do you think of my suggestion of using diodes to make a virtual double tracked station for your 3 stop idea? By adding the diodes powered from the two bypass tracks, the layout virtually becomes a 3 bypass tracks one.

[velotrain]

Many older streetcar stations had lower level platforms that were raised when high platform stock was purchased. In case of this station, the line was single tracked but the station had a bypass track as others do. When the tram frequency is decreased or stations are moved some of the bypass points can be removed, but it doesn't mean anyone is willing to redesign the overhead suspension to follow the change.

 

 

Thanks for the explanation.  It just seemed like they could have saved some money by only spanning one track at the station when they went to metal poles.  I've seen several statements that lines were removed in 1944 when Japan needed war materials, so I now wonder if the bypass track could have been removed that long ago.  The other thing that seemed odd about the B&W photo was that it looks like there is litter in / around the station.  That seems very un-Japanese, so wonder if there was a period when this aspect of the national consciousness slackened for a while?

 

 

>  What do you think of my suggestion of using diodes to make a virtual double tracked station for your 3 stop idea? By adding the diodes powered from the two bypass tracks, the layout virtually becomes a 3 bypass tracks one.

 

I did some considering and wondered how I could have ever thought it would have worked without this, or a third set of hidden turnouts to route the power.  I do kind of like the idea of decommissioned turnouts still in place, drawing directional power from the rail ends.  Hmmm . . . guessing that Tomix routes the power electronically, I could even remove the points and some other rails to make it look more convincing.  Of course, the capacitor would still discharge, so the three turnouts might be too much for the unit.  The 5563 would still click, but the casual viewer wouldn't see anything move - that might be fun.  Say - there's no reason I couldn't do this with the turnouts as just static models . . .   I could even have rail pieces lying around as if the bypass track was only recently removed!  OTOH, it might be more fun to have the old switches overgrown.

 

Of course, with my lack of electronic knowledge, I would need to know what kind of diodes and how to orient them.  BTW, this is mode 8 again, and TCS expects 2 sensors on each station siding track.

 

As mentioned, I have no plans to try to build this in the foreseeable future, but I did like these two stations and the idea of having one of them single track.  It would only work in the sequence I describe, which fortunately is how mode 8 normally works.  BTW - going back a ways, when I posted my mode 8 video, I was using a power cable for tram street track, so didn't know what the orientation was.  It turned out that I had it backwards to what TCS was expecting, so I had right-hand running instead of left, which no doubt confused you.

[velotrain]

Mode 7 - cloned for two sidings

 

https://youtu.be/2U2WyNqtTIY

 

Text on youtube

[cteno4]

Very nice

 

Jeff