Kato 10-354 Motor not even responding

[NB1231]

Hello,

 

I stumbled across a 22 car Kato 10-354+5+6 set (Series 100 Grand Hikari) and the owner did state the motor car did not run and I tested it and it's not even budging. Looks like the trains were left in a moisture laden environment for a while and I'm thinking this could be part of the problem. Also one of the cars is missing a wheelset. Does anyone have any ideas what I could do with the motor car? How about an idea to find a wheelset for the cars? Thanks!

[railsquid]

22 cars!? No wonder the motor doesn't work ;)

 

Kato should have parts; the ASSY PDFs are listed on the product page: http://www.katomodels.com/n/100kei/

 

Presumably you'd need a new power unit (125-3709) and a bogie (121-3000 or 179-3000).

[NB1231]

22 cars!? No wonder the motor doesn't work ;)

 

Kato should have parts; the ASSY PDFs are listed on the product page: http://www.katomodels.com/n/100kei/

 

Presumably you'd need a new power unit (125-3709) and a bogie (121-3000 or 179-3000).

HA! I know right?? And thank you :) can I just order them directly?

[katoftw]

why is there so many cars?

[railsquid]

HA! I know right?? And thank you :) can I just order them directly?

I don't think Kato do direct orders; one of the usual overseas suppliers on this forum should be able to help.

 

("Unfortunately" the Kato store in Tokyo is a short-ish train ride away for me so I've no idea about buying from overseas ;) )

[NB1231]

why is there so many cars?

The guy bought too many sets. Lol.

[NB1231]

I don't think Kato do direct orders; one of the usual overseas suppliers on this forum should be able to help.

 

("Unfortunately" the Kato store in Tokyo is a short-ish train ride away for me so I've no idea about buying from overseas ;) )

Ha isn't that convenient

[kvp]

The correct set size for the classic grand hikari is 16 cars. From 22 cars, you can probably make a decent 16 car set. I don't know which set makes up the surplus cars, but you might be able to make another (shorter) set with an additional base set. (like a 16+12 or 14+14 car sets or just sell the surplus cars)

[NB1231]

The correct set size for the classic grand hikari is 16 cars. From 22 cars, you can probably make a decent 16 car set. I don't know which set makes up the surplus cars, but you might be able to make another (shorter) set with an additional base set. (like a 16+12 or 14+14 car sets or just sell the surplus cars)

I was thinking about that. I thought it was 16. Looks like he ordered an extra 10-355 and 10-356

[cteno4]

Nb,

 

Have you tried disassembling the whole motor mechanism,mcleaning throughly (little ultrasonic jewelry cleaner units and isopropanol work wonderfully on this) and reassembling?

 

Www.modeltrainplus.net and www.loco1hobby.net are good places to ask about these sorts of part and great dealers when you get mor into these trains as well! If you are in the US katousa will order spare parts from kato japan for you. Call them to get the current procedure. It's usually fax them the instruction sheet with the part circled. It usually takes 1-3 months for the parts to make their way back to the U.S. and then they mail them to you (last time it was $8 for a small part for shipping). Not fast, but it can work.

 

Cheers

 

Jeff

[railsquid]

Have you tried disassembling the whole motor mechanism,mcleaning throughly (little ultrasonic jewelry cleaner units and isopropanol work wonderfully on this) and reassembling?

 

This can definitely help if the motor and mechanism isn't damaged, and is less scary than you might think. I had a MicroAce EMU which was "new" but dead on arrival (it was a "what you see is what you buy, no returns" kind of deal and the set must have been on a shelf for a decade); stripping it down revealed an easily fixable issue with the contacts and after a bit of jiggery it ran fine. I also acquired a Tomix EMU on a similar basis which ran fine in one direction but was noisy in another; simply taking it apart and putting it together again made the noise go away.

 

One very useful tool is a 9v battery with contact wires which you can press against wheels, contact strips, terminals on the motor itself to track down where contact issues are and check whether the motor itself is actually working.

 

Another very useful tool is a digital camera of some sort to document each step of disassembly; very useful when working out how it all fits together.

[cteno4]

Railsquid nailed it! Sometimes works miracles! Also getting some fine train pol forthe motor bearings and heavy oil/light grease for the gears after a through cleaning really helps as well. Just need to make sure it's plastic compatible oil. Labelle is an old name in these fine model oils.

 

http://www.modeltrainstuff.com/Labelle-108-1-2-fl-oz-Multi-Purpose-Oil-Light-plas-p/lab-108.htm

 

http://www.modeltrainstuff.com/Labelle-102-1-2-fl-oz-Gear-Lubricant-plastic-compa-p/lab-102.htm

 

On the motor bearings (where the shaft meets the motor housing) you only need a tiny anount of the fine oil applied. Is use a toothpick to do this. Like squid said using a 9v battery or wires from your train power pack to run the motor a bit then just dab a tiny bit more and run. On the gears again just do a bit at a time with a toothpick and run them even if it's jsut turning the gears with your finger to spread it around. Apply some more if you see dry areas. But again do very small bits at a time. Too much and you can pick up more grit into the gears and extra will also end up on your track eventually! If you do overdo it you can always wash out the truck with isopropanol and start over.

 

Since you only need 16 cars for a complete train (they never ran more than 16 and you may kill the single motor car trying to do that anyway!) you could just borrow a bogie from another car. But the part may still be around, guessing $4-5.

 

Jeff

[NB1231]

Railsquid nailed it! Sometimes works miracles! Also getting some fine train pol forthe motor bearings and heavy oil/light grease for the gears after a through cleaning really helps as well. Just need to make sure it's plastic compatible oil. Labelle is an old name in these fine model oils.

 

http://www.modeltrainstuff.com/Labelle-108-1-2-fl-oz-Multi-Purpose-Oil-Light-plas-p/lab-108.htm

 

http://www.modeltrainstuff.com/Labelle-102-1-2-fl-oz-Gear-Lubricant-plastic-compa-p/lab-102.htm

 

On the motor bearings (where the shaft meets the motor housing) you only need a tiny anount of the fine oil applied. Is use a toothpick to do this. Like squid said using a 9v battery or wires from your train power pack to run the motor a bit then just dab a tiny bit more and run. On the gears again just do a bit at a time with a toothpick and run them even if it's jsut turning the gears with your finger to spread it around. Apply some more if you see dry areas. But again do very small bits at a time. Too much and you can pick up more grit into the gears and extra will also end up on your track eventually! If you do overdo it you can always wash out the truck with isopropanol and start over.

 

Since you only need 16 cars for a complete train (they never ran more than 16 and you may kill the single motor car trying to do that anyway!) you could just borrow a bogie from another car. But the part may still be around, guessing $4-5.

 

Jeff

I tried taking the car apart and the plastic thing containing the seats would not come off. It had plastic tabs that I unclicked an most of the seats would come off but there was one section that was just not budging and I've learned the hard way if you have to force something to come off you're probably going to break it. I appreciate the help, I'll try looking at it tonight or tomorrow night and see if the motor is salvageable.

 

Nate

[cteno4]

Nate,

 

they do take some wiggling and 3 hands to get them off! as soon as you get some tabs up another one snaps back in. 

 

one trick is to use flat tooth picks and pry up a tab and slide a flat tooth pick end under it (break it off short to be out of the way) to keep it from going back on as you pry then next one. you can then get them all like this and work on prying them all off slowly while also prying under the seat/floor plate with a small screw driver. a cheap set of jewelers screwdrivers is great for working on this stuff, you can pick them up at the dollar store. 

 

this just takes some practice and patience. good light and a magnifying glass of some sort that you can look thru while working (or clip on glass magnifiers etc) can also be a big help and an essential tool for all sorts of stuff in the long run. heres  some super cheap ones

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-6x-2-0x-2-5x-3-5x-Head-Replaceable-Lens-Loupe-Magnifier-Magnify-Glass-Stable-/291348850583?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43d5bea797

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/10X-Lighted-Magnifying-Glass-LED-Head-Headband-Magnifier-Loupe-W-Sunshield-RTCA-/181178907330?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_2&hash=item2a2f1abac2

 

these also are a big help in prying open cars:

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/10Pcs-Plastic-Tool-Cell-Phone-Pry-Case-Cover-Opening-Removal-Tool-Accessory-Blue-/361156934800?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_2&hash=item5416a17c90

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Pry-Bar-Metal-Open-Repair-Tool-For-Apple-iPod-iPhone-iPad-Tablet-Cell-Phone-M41-/221558587086?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_2&hash=item3395ebbece

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/5-x-Safety-Cellphone-Phone-LCD-Screen-Opening-Pry-Tool-Opener-Repair-Portable-fo-/291333989385?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_2&hash=item43d4dbe409

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/8in1-Triangle-Disassembly-Plastic-Pry-Repair-Opening-Tool-Kit-Set-For-Cell-Phone-/400852624308?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5d54ada3b4

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/8-In1-Kit-For-Iphone-Precision-Open-Pry-Tool-Screwdriver-Cell-Phone-Repair-/271701993019?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f42b3663b

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Opening-Metal-Pry-Tools-Fr-Cell-Phone-iPhone-iPod-iPad-MacBook-Open-Repair-Tools-/400745421352?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5d4e49da28

 

cheers

 

jeff

[NB1231]

Here are attached pictures of the problem. As you can see I have released all of the tabs off for the seats except the middle portion which refuses to release. Any ideas?

 

Nate

[NB1231]

 

Seats are off...now I'm not sure what to look for in the motor...

 

Nate

[cteno4]

nate,

 

cool good work!

 

can you turn the motor rotor with your finger tip? if it turns can you turn it a few times and see if the gear on the bottom of the truck (you can see it thru the little slot there) turns some as you turn the motor rotor. if this happens its a good sign its not all corroded up.

 

can you hook up some wire to your power pack and try applying it directly to the motor contacts there to see if that will spin the motor?

 

if it spins then its a case of dirty contacts somewhere in the wheels to truck or truck to chassis. that will require pulling off the trucks. and pulling them apart and cleaning all the parts well.

 

if it does not spin next would be pull off the trucks anyway to see if it would spin then with the trucks not on and power applied directly to the motor contacts. 

 

if it spins with the trucks off then its the trucks that are gummed up and need to be pulled apart and cleaned.

 

if it doesnt spin with the trucks off and power connected to motor leads its most likely the motor contacts are corroded or bad.

 

jeff

Edited April 5, 2015 by cteno4

[NB1231]

nate,

 

cool good work!

 

can you turn the motor rotor with your finger tip? if it turns can you turn it a few times and see if the gear on the bottom of the truck (you can see it thru the little slot there) turns some as you turn the motor rotor. if this happens its a good sign its not all corroded up.

 

can you hook up some wire to your power pack and try applying it directly to the motor contacts there to see if that will spin the motor?

 

if it spins then its a case of dirty contacts somewhere in the wheels to truck or truck to chassis. that will require pulling off the trucks. and pulling them apart and cleaning all the parts well.

 

if it does not spin next would be pull off the trucks anyway to see if it would spin then with the trucks not on and power applied directly to the motor contacts.

 

if it spins with the trucks off then its the trucks that are gummed up and need to be pulled apart and cleaned.

 

if it doesnt spin with the trucks off and power connected to motor leads its most likely the motor contacts are corroded or bad.

 

jeff

Looks like manually when I spin it everything is spinning freely. Still dead on the tracks but I don't have wire to hook up and test. Hmm....

[cteno4]

What are you using for your powerpack?

 

Jeff

[NB1231]

What are you using for your powerpack?

 

Jeff

A kato transformer

[cteno4]

Hmm are you able to do any soldering? If so you could snip a power feed and then strip the wires to test. The solder the wire back up later!

 

If you want I can send you a kato plug with a wire attached to use on testing stuff like this.

 

Jeff

[NB1231]

Hmm are you able to do any soldering? If so you could snip a power feed and then strip the wires to test. The solder the wire back up later!

 

If you want I can send you a kato plug with a wire attached to use on testing stuff like this.

 

Jeff

No soldering as of this moment I could use something like that....

[katoftw]

Use a 9V battery straight onto the tabs.

 

Also those copper tabs look mighty tarnished.  they need a good clean with brasso or similar.

[kvp]

Taking a piece of track that has power connected to it, and touching the tabs with the top of the rails could work.

[railsquid]

This is what I use for ad-hoc motor and connection testing: