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velotrain

I got a question..

 

How to make the trains run quieter on a styrofoam base? Mine is very noisy..

 

I used a plywood some years ago and somehow it's noisier.

 

You say styrofoam, but it can't be the white "cellular" foam, that easily breaks into small "pebbles".  In the U.S. we have blue or pink insulation foam, in 1" or 2" thicknesses.

 

I did some research on foam layout bases recently, and found a number of comments that foam "booms" when it is used by itself.

 

It needs to be attached to a more solid bottom layer, such as plywood or even Masonite - at least 3/16" inch was recommended.

 

==>>  Here's the important thing:  it cannot be "glued" down using wood or similar glue.  You must use a caulking agent, which will create a more elastic bond, so the sound is not transmitted to the wood base.

 

There is a lot of information on the web regarding layout bases and roadbeds.

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cteno4

I've read a lot on this as well. The first jrm display layout used 2'x4' base modules (bolted together) made of 1" thick extruded polystyrene foam that was just framed with 1x3 lumber and a couple of 1x1 cross pieces. Never had any issue of booming with these, so don't know what to think. track was not affixed to the foam. But no booming!

 

Jeff

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mrp

The quick reading I just did on that 555 astable circuit says that the duty cycle goes from 50% to 100%.

 
In my experimenting with PWM controllers, I found that most of the speed control is the range from 10% to 50%.  By the time you’re at 50%, it’s pretty much full speed.  The duty cycle for CL lighting is about 8%.
 
I think you may need to change your circuit so that most of the adjustable range is at the low end (maybe by inverting the output, or adding the diode suggested in the above link - although it doesn’t say whether the diode method will get you right down to zero).
 
I always find it very difficult to work on these types of circuits without plugging in a ‘scope and seeing what’s actually going on.

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mrp

I was doing a bit more reading and stumbled across this 555 circuit for a PWM fan controller.

 
pwmgen.gif
 
It claims to produce duty cycles from 2% to 98% at 20.5kHz - which pretty much exactly matches the frequency of Tomix CL controllers.  May be worth a try.
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velotrain

Never had any issue of booming with these, so don't know what to think. track was not affixed to the foam. But no booming!

 

Jeff - do you mean you just used the modules as a base, and set the track (and everything else) up temporarily each time?

 

The track not being permanently mounted to the foam could be why you had no booming, as it wasn't an integral part of the foam.

 

I found quite a few references to foam booming unless it was attached to a wooden support underneath (and not with glue), but am quite sure these were all permanent layouts, vs. the foam substituting as a Japanese floor.

 

 

 

 

 

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HantuBlauLOL

Ahh.. So not that foam? I'll search for the foam you've mentioned above. Thanks for the information!

 

I'm also going to split my layout into some modules, because I don't have the space to store it permanently.

 

 

 

That fan control PWM circuit looks like a good idea! However, are those zener diodes, or just 1N4148?

 

It says its maximum voltage is only 5, so I think using 7805 is necessary. The power supply would be 12V, as its needed to power a 12V motor.

 

I'm thinking about amplifying the pulsed 5V PWM with 12VDC with a Darlington transistor, so I redraw the circuit.

 

post-2495-0-73127300-1431847455_thumb.png

 

It says it wont work because of a closed cap loop, what does it mean? Any other errors?

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mrp

Probably not related to the error, but the 555 seems to be missing a GND connection.

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mrp

Oh, and the link I gave says they're just standard 1N4148's.

 

Edit: Plus the 555 datasheet I just looked at says supply voltage is 5V to 15V so you might not need a regulator.  Though you probably should add a schottky diode across the motor to protect the darlington from reverse-EMF.

Edited by mrp

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kvp

I think those might be schottky high speed diodes. The trick is that the one of the diodes discharges the trigger, while the other charges it. Since the potmeter divides the resistence, the charge direction gets N% and the discharge direction gets 100%-N%, giving a 100% duty cycle. But you have to use a linear potmeter for it to work. (i also think that the problem is the missing ground, both the connection for the 555 and the small ground mark for the whole circuit)

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HantuBlauLOL

The 555 on that app doesn't have a ground pin.. I guess its automatically connected to ground in its programming code.

 

Schottky? I thing I must learn more about diodes.. Hmm..

 

Small ground mark.. Where it should be?

Edited by HantuBlauLOL

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cteno4

Charles,

 

Yes, it was not affixed, so may not boom, but I think also our frames are solid and foam well glued into them with liquid nails. They are so strudy I still use 4 of them for use as 8' tall vertical wood racks!

 

I have also use unitrak in 4x8 of 1.5" extruded polystyrene base that was just sitting in 4 2x4 cross pieces on a smaller table (so every 18" or so down the 6' table under it). I had the unitrak pinned to the foam with 1" pins to keep it in place. While not glued it was pretty firmly attached and I never found it to be noisier than track on a solid table top. This has surprised me as I would expect it to be louder, but in both these experiences for me not true and I've read others having the same experience with affixed unitrak on open polystyrene bases as well as the opposite experience. So it's one of those things I chalk up to not being a clear cut one way or another and requires your own experimentation to see what results you get in your situation and construction.

 

Cheers

 

Jeff

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cteno4

Looks interesting. Coupe of the leads are not quite clear, but laying it out should get that figured out,

 

Jeff

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HantuBlauLOL

Hi guys, long time no post here.

 

So my CL controller has finished. But I can't find the MOSFET anywhere, so I replaced it with a Darlington. Guess what? VVVF IGBT sound effect! :grin

 

Here is the first test video, enjoy!

 

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HantuBlauLOL

Hi guys, currently in going to make a mini diorama (module, perhaps?) of hokuhoku line in Niigata for my PC desk decoration. This is my secondary project (the main one never progressed actually, sigh).

 

The length is about for 3 20m cars (1x S280 + 1x S140), and just one line. Not sure about the width of the dio, any suggestion?

 

Also which section of the real line is "cool" to model?

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HantuBlauLOL

My eyes can't be wrong, that section is really beautiful.

 

IMG__3015.jpg?d=a0

 

But which way should I go:

1. Compressing the whole from tunnel to tunnel scene to 560mm length or

2. Build it in full length, aka making the diorama much longer?

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velotrain

My own feeling is that the prototype scene is already so compressed, that any further compression will cause it to look like a caricature.

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HantuBlauLOL

Hmm..

How long it should be? I'm thinking about 1200mm..

 

Btw air surveillance is very easy nowadays, very useful for making real place dioramas.

It gave me this:

 

post-2495-0-83001800-1446920236_thumb.png

Edited by HantuBlauLOL

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Densha

Google Maps even has a feature to precisely measure distances:
 


 
I measured 140m for the distance between both tunnel entrances at Hokuhoku-Ōshima. 140m / 150 (Japanese N scale) = 0,93m = 930mm (= exactly the length of a triple T-Trak module ;) ) Edited by Densha
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HantuBlauLOL

WHOA..

Thanks, Densha san!

 

But its for entrance to entrance, right? I think it would be weird without a bit of 'inside' tunnel track a bit..

 

I think I'll make it 1240mm, aka 4 T-trak modules.

..but T-trak is double track with unitrack, right?

 

Well, there is no standard for that in my country yet anyway.

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katoftw

By the photo you can tell tunnel portal to tunnel portal is just over 6 cars. 6x 145mm = 870mm.  Add a bit more length for hillsides.  Done.  1000mm maybe?

Edited by katoftw
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kvp

 

..but T-trak is double track with unitrack, right?

As far as i know it has two double track and one single track standards. (at least: back to back and 33mm spacing and front track only) The only rule about track types is that it must have unitrack pieces at the ends of the modules and i've seen some great modules on the net with finetrack turnouts and flex track in the middle. If you make it a triple or quad module and use finetrack with two unitrack pieces at the ends (in the back of the tunnels), then it will be a comforming module.

 

With a Tomix finetrack system, the station is 3 cars long and placed on a double track viaduct, with a double track tunnel enterance. (visible on many videos) The platform is occupying the place of one track. The trackless viaduct piece meant for turnouts can be populated with the platform and a single track. The river bridge and the next section is also 3 cars long, so it's possible to use a double car length bridge and a single viaduct piece ending in a single tunnel portal. Since one car ~ one piece = 140 mm this gives 6*140 from tunnel to tunnel, which is 840 mm with Tomix finetrack. For t-trak compatibility, you'll have 90 mm extra, which is 45 mm x 2, just enough to connect two smaller unitrack pieces inside the tunnels for full t-trak compatibility on a triple long module.

 

ps: There are 45.5 mm unitrack pieces available and by removing the tomix roadbed stud and metal joiner and cutting the plastic part of the unijoiners in half (making them flush with the end of the track), it's possible to connect the two track systems with the kato metal joiners only without any extra modification to the rails or roadbeds. To be 100% correct, it's possible to file off 0.5 mm from the finetrack side of the unitrack pieces.

Edited by kvp
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Densha

HantuBlauLOL,

 

1240mm length sounds good to me. If you want to stay exactly true to the prototype you then have about half a T-Trak module (~15cm) on both sides for a bit of mountain scenery.

 

T-Trak doesn't necessarily have to be double track Unitrack at all. Just take a look at this website for example: http://space.geocities.jp/popoya2008/f.html

You can really just use any module sizes and track types you want. For Unitrack, the module length is always 310mm (or a a multitude of 310mm, two 620mm long modules is also possible for a 1240mm scene) and the depth can vary to your likings up to a maximum of 310mm. Track spacing depends on what module standard you are exactly going for. For example, the Dutch T-Trak standard Toni Babelony invented places the center of the tracks at either 50mm or 83mm from the front of the module.

 

Optionally, you could also use Tomix Finetrack, but many people use Unitrack for T-Trak because of its replaceable Unijoiners. I don't suggest mixing multiple track systems on a simple T-trak module though, because the module sizes you choose are according to the specific geometry of either Unitrack or Finetrack and mixing track types results in tracks having just not exactly the lengths you want them to be. It's another story if you like cutting your own tracks and all, but just sayin'.

 

I don't suggest to portray the whole tunnels in N scale though. The tunnel west of Hokuhoku-Ōshima to Mushigawa-Ōsugi, the Fukuzawa (?) tunnel (深沢トンネル), is about 1.6km long. The tunnel to the east is the 9.1km long Nabetachiyama tunnel to Matsudai. In scale 1:150 that's respectively a mere 10.7m and 60.7m! :D

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HantuBlauLOL

As far as i know it has two double track and one single track standards. (at least: back to back and 33mm spacing and front track only) The only rule about track types is that it must have unitrack pieces at the ends of the modules and i've seen some great modules on the net with finetrack turnouts and flex track in the middle. If you make it a triple or quad module and use finetrack with two unitrack pieces at the ends (in the back of the tunnels), then it will be a comforming module.

 

I'm going to bash a flextrack. The real one had slab tracks, but those are different than tomix/kato slabs. 

 

HantuBlauLOL,

 

T-Trak doesn't necessarily have to be double track Unitrack at all. Just take a look at this website for example: http://space.geocities.jp/popoya2008/f.html

 

Optionally, you could also use Tomix Finetrack, but many people use Unitrack for T-Trak because of its replaceable Unijoiners. I don't suggest mixing multiple track systems on a simple T-trak module though, because the module sizes you choose are according to the specific geometry of either Unitrack or Finetrack and mixing track types results in tracks having just not exactly the lengths you want them to be. It's another story if you like cutting your own tracks and all, but just sayin'.

 

I don't suggest to portray the whole tunnels in N scale though. The tunnel west of Hokuhoku-Ōshima to Mushigawa-Ōsugi, the Fukuzawa (?) tunnel (深沢トンネル), is about 1.6km long. The tunnel to the east is the 9.1km long Nabetachiyama tunnel to Matsudai. In scale 1:150 that's respectively a mere 10.7m and 60.7m! :D

 

Hey, thanks for the link!

 

In the end, it doesn't even matter. i will use cut down unitracks, just for their joiner. still not really sure about this, as i heavily use finetracks..

 
You know noone would build that tunnel module, +70m of boredom. LOL.  :laughing3:
 
This is how they keep the Yumezora train passengers out of boredom in real life.
 
 
 
I got another idea.. Since Hokuhoku line had so many tunnels, why dont cut them and make another modules based on what lies on the another end of the tunnel?

 

Edited by HantuBlauLOL

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