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jrcrunch

1/160 and 1/150

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jrcrunch

why  didnt kato/tomix make all trains (shinkansens and local) all 1/150 or 1/160 only? 

 

is the shinkansen 1/160 due to it's gauge? is the body/chassis also 1/160 or 1/150? 

 

if the shinkansen is really 1/160 then if it is 1/150 then the chassis will be bigger?

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kvp

The 1:150 Nj standard was created to better match the cape gauge of the prototype and follows the 1:148 Nuk standard, where the small loading gauge and the large sized motors of the time created this compromise. The classical japanese loading gauge is also very similar to the british, so japanese designers had the same problem of fitting the motors. Most of the trackside structures follow this standard, amongst them the high platforms and bridges/tunnels.

 

The real shinkansen has a loading gauge that is much larger than the cape gauge trains, even larger than most european standards, up to a 3 meter width. This means if they were built to 1:150, then not only their body to track ratio would be far off, but they wouldn't fit into any classical japanese stations, not to mention european track systems. They were downsized to the european N standard of 1:160. This means correct body to track ratio and they fit into the same stations and platforms that are used by the 1:150 cape gauge trains. The 25 meter cars are still longer than the standard cape gauge 20 meter cars, but not as much as if they were also 1:150.

 

So Nj is roughly compatible with Nuk and japanese N scale shinkansen are compatible with european N scale trains. This means you can run british, japanese and european trains on the same layout and they will mostly fit into the same loading gauge.

 

Being 100% prototypical would mean roughly Z track for cape gauge trains, N track for standard gauge trains and a large loading gauge N track for shinkansen, with no way to mix them on the same tracks. This would also mean that no european or american track systems could have been used for running most japanese trains at the time the standard was created.

 

ps: An interesting fact that some very early european N scale trains were also around 1:150 with a 80% length compression. (so european 25 meter cars had the exact same dimensions as a 20 meter japanese car and were slightly oversized for the N gauge track they ran on) It's still possible to find some ancient German prototype N scale trains that were made in this slightly oversized and length compressed form.

Edited by kvp
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spacecadet

The end result is that the narrow gauge trains are all off on their wheel width. I'm not sure about the shinkansen but if they are off, it's not by as much. But there's no way to avoid that since there are two different major track standards in Japan that aren't even close to the same gauge, so if you want to use the same gauge track and structures for them at home, the trains are going to have to be fudged a little bit.

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westfalen

Also, British N scale is still 1:148 trains on 1:160 track the same as their 'HO/OO' is 1:76 trains on 1:87 track.  I think generally it's one of those things best not worried about too much.

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railsquid

Also, British N scale is still 1:148 trains on 1:160 track the same as their 'HO/OO' is 1:76 trains on 1:87 track.  I think generally it's one of those things best not worried about too much.

 

Ooooh, clearly you've never been caught in the crossfire between EM and P4 people then ;)

 

Personally I run British, Japanese and German trains on the same track - if you stop and look carefully, sometimes you can see a slight mismatch in proportions, but on the whole I don't give it much thought. Though putting Japanese 1:150 and British 1:148 trains side-by-side does show up how limited the British loading gauge is even compared with Japan.

 

Some of the earlier British "N-gauge" trains were a bit hit-and-miss with the scale, particularly from Lima. I picked up a Lima BR Mk1 coach the other week as it was cheap, and by itself it looks OK if kind of primitive, but coupled with modern Mk1 coaches it's clearly too small (presumably around 1:160),

Edited by railsquid

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Ewan.in.gz

I will just make sure to separate Shinkansen from meter gauge trains. That means running them on viaducts up above the other lines!

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Takahama Trainwatcher

  • Does anyone know definitively what scale the Kato Narita Express EMUs have been built to (N gauge)? Somewhere I thought I had seen that they were built to 1:160, despite being narrow gauge... but I could be wrong. I haven't bothered to measure the carriages - it's just subtle curiosity.

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railsquid

I'd be surprised if it was anything other than 1:150. I just checked the Kato catalogue, and while it doesn't list the scale of each product, it does say explicitly that Japanese N-scale is 1:150, with the exception of Shinkansens (and not quite correctly "foreign trains") is 1:160.

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jrcrunch

The 1:150 Nj standard was created to better match the cape gauge of the prototype and follows the 1:148 Nuk standard, where the small loading gauge and the large sized motors of the time created this compromise. The classical japanese loading gauge is also very similar to the british, so japanese designers had the same problem of fitting the motors. Most of the trackside structures follow this standard, amongst them the high platforms and bridges/tunnels.

 

The real shinkansen has a loading gauge that is much larger than the cape gauge trains, even larger than most european standards, up to a 3 meter width. This means if they were built to 1:150, then not only their body to track ratio would be far off, but they wouldn't fit into any classical japanese stations, not to mention european track systems. They were downsized to the european N standard of 1:160. This means correct body to track ratio and they fit into the same stations and platforms that are used by the 1:150 cape gauge trains. The 25 meter cars are still longer than the standard cape gauge 20 meter cars, but not as much as if they were also 1:150.

 

So Nj is roughly compatible with Nuk and japanese N scale shinkansen are compatible with european N scale trains. This means you can run british, japanese and european trains on the same layout and they will mostly fit into the same loading gauge.

 

Being 100% prototypical would mean roughly Z track for cape gauge trains, N track for standard gauge trains and a large loading gauge N track for shinkansen, with no way to mix them on the same tracks. This would also mean that no european or american track systems could have been used for running most japanese trains at the time the standard was created.

 

ps: An interesting fact that some very early european N scale trains were also around 1:150 with a 80% length compression. (so european 25 meter cars had the exact same dimensions as a 20 meter japanese car and were slightly oversized for the N gauge track they ran on) It's still possible to find some ancient German prototype N scale trains that were made in this slightly oversized and length compressed form.

 

so the bodies and track of shinkansen are both 1/160 right?

 

and bodies and track of local trains are all 1/150? does body and track ratio really matter in toy train models

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kvp
so the bodies and track of shinkansen are both 1/160 right?

 

Yes.

and bodies and track of local trains are all 1/150?

 

No. The bodies are 1:150 and the track is 1:160.

 

does body and track ratio really matter in toy train models

 

It depends on the person you ask. Some people say plarail is realistic enough. Other people say even Nj isn't good enough for them.

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Ken Ford

Gauge inaccuracies tend to bother me, but not always enough to deal with the hassle of correcting them. 

 

My British 4mm scale modeling is both in OO 16.5mm (for the club layout) and EM 18.2mm (for home); in the past I was working in Proto:48 for my US traction modeling but reverted to standard O gauge so my equipment could be run on other people's layouts.  It's a matter of picking your battles.

 

With that background I've been searching for information about gauge corrected Japanese modeling.  In HO the 12mm and 13mm models look much better to me than 16.5mm, and in N the models converted to run on 6.5mm Z gauge track look great.  Cape gauge equipment has a distinctive "looming" look that is lacking with 1/150 9mm and 1/80 16.5mm.

 

It makes me glad that my main Japanese modeling interest (Randen) is standard gauge - I can live with the discrepancy of running 1/150 on 9mm, it really doesn't bother me.  Much.

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katoftw

The average Joe doesn't know or cannot tell by looking that there are minute differences. This thread has clearly proven it. The difference are so minute, I wouldn't be loosing any sleep over it.

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Densha

I know about the differences, but care about them so little and converting all 1/150 Japanese cape gauge stuff to Z gauge is too much of a hassle and if I'm right still not exactly prototypical (although closer than N gauge).

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cteno4

Well for n scale 1/150 running on z gauge track does look quite nice and you can notice the difference! It is a lot of work though to covert a collection you would run on z gauge track.

 

Some see stuff like this and that's what they love in the modeling, making it right, spot on. Others don't, it's to each his own preferences to their hobby tastes and no one is right or wrong.

 

Jeff

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spacecadet

The average Joe doesn't know or cannot tell by looking that there are minute differences.

The differences in standard gauge trains like the shinkansen are minute enough not to notice.

 

The differences in narrow gauge trains, though, are easily noticeable if you've ever seen the prototypes in person or even looked at pictures of them. The wheels and tracks on these trains are set much further inside the body than on Japanese N scale trains.

 

Granted, everybody has different standards for what they can deal with in terms of realism. But I think a person needs to get their eyes checked if they "cannot tell" that the models differ from reality in terms of track gauge. It's a question of whether or not it bothers you, not whether or not it can be seen.

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jrcrunch

Yes.

 

No. The bodies are 1:150 and the track is 1:160.

 

 

It depends on the person you ask. Some people say plarail is realistic enough. Other people say even Nj isn't good enough for them.

so the shinkansen is a perfect 1/160 scale - both body and track               

 

but the local trains like yamamote? for it to be a perfect 1/160 fit, the body has to be smaller and there should be a new track for it since some you say that it's body matches the 1/220 track?

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cteno4

so the shinkansen is a perfect 1/160 scale - both body and track               

 

but the local trains like yamamote? for it to be a perfect 1/160 fit, the body has to be smaller and there should be a new track for it since some you say that it's body matches the 1/220 track?

Yes since 9mm gauge track (n gauge) is scaled to be standard gauge and since shinkansens run on standard gauge they are modeled at 1/160 scale and thus match n gauge track.

 

All the cape (narrow) gauge trains (pretty everything but the Shinkansen in Japan) is modeled at 1/150 so the n gauge track will look a little closer to the real cape gauge. But really if the trains are at 1/150 then cape gauge track is very close (within a couple of percent) to z gauge track spacing. Thus this is why if you want cape gauge japanes trains to run on protypical track folks regaugemthe wheels to z gauge and use z gauge track.

 

Cheers

 

Jeff

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jrcrunch

too bad. i want them to be scaled perfectly or accurate as possible. 

 

shinkansen are perfect 1/160 but no japanese diorama out there for them.

 

are the elevated viaducts 1/150 or just the track which are 1/150 but the viaduct is 1/160?

 

 

how about japanese HO? 1/87 shinkansens and 1/80 for local trains.. i guess same applies

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katoftw

shinkansen are perfect 1/160 but no japanese diorama out there for them

make a diorama like everyone else.

 

are the elevated viaducts 1/150 or just the track which are 1/150 but the viaduct is 1/160?

still 9mm track width. still 1/160. Edited by katoftw

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jrcrunch

for N scale. 1/160 trains should be 6.7% bigger to be scale with 1/150 trains

 

and for HO  1/87 trains should be 8.8% bigger to be in scale with 1/80 trains

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katoftw

i think you are puting too much though into the whole issue. no model made is 100% prototypical. 

for N scale. 1/160 trains should be 6.7% bigger to be scale with 1/150 trains

 

and for HO  1/87 trains should be 8.8% bigger to be in scale with 1/80 trains

your math isn't very good. 1/150th is bigger than 1/160th. same goes for your HO math. Edited by katoftw

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jrcrunch

i think you are puting too much though into the whole issue. no model made is 100% prototypical. 

your math isn't very good. 1/150th is bigger than 1/160th. same goes for your HO math.

 

huh? what are you talking about. what i mentioned is the 1/160 scale trains should be bigger to be in scale with 1/150. they should be 6.7% bigger not smaller. dont you get it? 

 

1/150 >  1/160 so  1/1/60 trains should be bigger or make a bigger adjustment

 

so do i still have a math error? 

 

 

anyway that is my preference..  to each his own. 

 

just look at 1/150 vs 1/160 N scale cars

post-2093-0-11598500-1424251308_thumb.jpg

Edited by jrcrunch

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kvp

Those cars have a size difference that is larger than 6.7%. So one of them or both of them are incorrect. Imho if you measure them and calculate the scale from the 1:1 prototype sizes, you get their real scale. For example, if the Tomytec one is really 1:150, then the Wiking is around Z scale at 1:220...

 

To clean up the confusion:

a ) Nj scale shinkansen:

-track gauge: 9mm

-track scale: 1:160

-body scale: 1:160

-buildings scale: 1:150

-visual track gauge: 1440 mm (5 mm larger than needed, that's 0.03 mm for 1:160, this is the precision of the N international standard)

 

b ) Nj scale cape gauge trains:

-track gauge: 9mm

-track scale: 1:160

-body scale: 1:150

-buildings scale: 1:150

-visual track gauge: 1350 (283 mm larger than needed, that's 1.9 mm for 1:150, so the perfect track gauge would be 7.1 mm)

 

c ) Nj scale standard gauge trains:

-track gauge: 9mm

-track scale: 1:160

-body scale: 1:150

-buildings scale: 1:150

-visual track gauge: 1350 (85 mm smaller than needed, that's 0.57 mm for 1:150, this is within gauge tolerance)

 

1372 mm is actually the old japanese tram gauge standard, so if you have an N scale classic tram in 1:150, then the 9mm track is nicely in scale for it.

Edited by kvp
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HantuBlauLOL

eh, i afraid those pics were from a very different scale, because IMHO their size wont have that much difference.

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Mudkip Orange

You'd notice if a 1067mm-prototype train was modeled in 1:160. It'd seem small. The shinkansens don't since the prototypes are so much larger than the mainline network.

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