Meitetsu 510/520

[sportinglife]

Hello,

I've just bought Modemo Meitetsu 510 (512+513+514).

Which is the difference between 510 e 520, apart the window shape?

Thanks

Marco

 

[Nick_Burman]

Hello,

I've just bought Modemo Meitetsu 510 (512+513+514).

Which is the difference between 510 e 520, apart the window shape?

Thanks

Marco

 

Number of traction motors - 4 on the 510's vs. 2 on the 520's. One of the reasons why pictures show so often a 510 + 520 lashup, as the 520's were considered a sort of motorized trailer.

 

 

 

Cheers NB

Edited April 9, 2014 by Nick_Burman

[sportinglife]

Thanks Nick!

When were they built? When were they scrapped? They look pretty much the same...

[Nick_Burman]

Thanks Nick!

When were they built? When were they scrapped? They look pretty much the same...

 

Massimo,

 

511 - 515 built 1926 by Nippon Sharyo; 522 - 526 built 1923, also by Nippon Sharyo. Both series were built for the Mino Denki Kido (Mino Electric Tramway, Gifu - Mino). The last cars only stopped running when the Gifu tramway division closed. By the end they had been reduced to special service and rush-hour trains on the Ibi and Tanigumi lines; these two branches retained old equipment right to the end because of a weak power supply situation which barred the other more modern cars from operating west of Kurono. Not all were scrapped, a couple are still around - one inside a restaurant!

 

Cheers NB

[marknewton]

Marco, the 510 series cars were of all-steel construction, the 520s were built with composite wood and steel carbodies. Older photos of these cars show they originally had truss rod underframes. You can see the difference in the height of the body sides between the two car types when coupled, plus the underframes on the 520s extend slightly forward of the ends - seen in this photo.

 

 

Nick, I didn't know the 520 series cars had only two motors. You learn something new every day on this forum!  :)

 

All the best,

 

Mark.

[Nick_Burman]

Nick, I didn't know the 520 series cars had only two motors. You learn something new every day on this forum!  :)

 

All the best,

 

Mark.

 

Mark,

 

And I didn't know that the 520s were of composite construction...tit for tat...

 

I guess this was done to circumvent regulations which must have restricted the use of trailers on street tramways. The powers-that-be of the time must have frowned on M+T formations on street trackage, but not on M+M. Also I guess it must have given an extra "oomph" when going up hills - I don't know about the profile of the Mino line, but having taken a 600-series interurban up the Ibi line (on BVE, of course) I know that there was a particularly nasty hill where the extra 2 traction motors would have come in handy.

 

 

Cheers Nb

Edited April 10, 2014 by Nick_Burman

[sportinglife]

Thanks.very interesying. Very likely 510/520 are the most beautiful rolling stocks ever to ply japanese track.I do like them. Modemo triple 512+513+514 is already out of stock on Hobbysearch

[kvp]

This might be the same as the Budd RDC-s. There was a special type with a single engine powering only one of the two bogies (and no cab). Many companies with lines on flat areas used them instead of trailers. On the other hand, many early British dmu and emu designs powered only the end bogies in any consist, so a 4 car 4CEP emu had a Bo-2,2-2,2-2,2-Bo layout. This was tought to be enough for south England. Afaik, even some early japanese commuter emus had only one powered bogie per car, usually the one below the pantograph in a Bo-2 configuration. Another interesting design is when only the inside axles are powered on each bogie. This is usually the choice for frame mounted motors with cardan shaft drives. Some trams even went so far to have slightly smaller nonpowered wheels and the bogie pins moved towards the powered wheels for better traction.

 

Which configuration did the 520 series cars use: B-B, 1A-A1, A1-1A or Bo-2?

[Nick_Burman]

This might be the same as the Budd RDC-s. There was a special type with a single engine powering only one of the two bogies (and no cab). Many companies with lines on flat areas used them instead of trailers. On the other hand, many early British dmu and emu designs powered only the end bogies in any consist, so a 4 car 4CEP emu had a Bo-2,2-2,2-2,2-Bo layout. This was tought to be enough for south England. Afaik, even some early japanese commuter emus had only one powered bogie per car, usually the one below the pantograph in a Bo-2 configuration. Another interesting design is when only the inside axles are powered on each bogie. This is usually the choice for frame mounted motors with cardan shaft drives. Some trams even went so far to have slightly smaller nonpowered wheels and the bogie pins moved towards the powered wheels for better traction.

 

Which configuration did the 520 series cars use: B-B, 1A-A1, A1-1A or Bo-2?

 

kvp, RDCs didn't haul trailers because Budd and Allison (manufacturers of the torque converters used on the RDCs) frowned upon, if not downright objected, the use of trailers on the grounds that they would overload the transmissions. In one case (on the New Haven), Budd threatened with withdrawing the warranty on the cars if the railway did not desist from hauling trailers with them. The single-engine RDCs were a belated attempt at remedying this issue.

 

AFAIK the 520s were 1A-A1.

 

Cheers NB

[sportinglife]

Got them today. Fantastic.

Can someone explain me this imagine? just to be sure to do things properly :)

 

 

Edited May 6, 2014 by sportinglife

[brill27mcb]

These are small parts that you need to attach yourself. They are Multiple Unit (MU) electrical cable receptacles. Just put the right ones on each car.

 

Rich K.

[sportinglife]

These are small parts that you need to attach yourself. They are Multiple Unit (MU) electrical cable receptacles. Just put the right ones on each car.

 

Rich K.

 

 

Clear, hope it won't be too difficult;-)

Edited May 7, 2014 by disturbman

[sportinglife]

... and then there are decals too apply. When did the first billboard appear on such railcar?

[sportinglife]

Are these motors of the same type of Kyushu class 200 "Omuta line"?

[Nick_Burman]

Are these motors of the same type of Kyushu class 200 "Omuta line"?

 

By motors do you mean traction motors or the cars themselves? Other than having the same general look I believe that the 510/520s and Nishitetsu's 200s were quite different beasts - starting with the fact that the 200s were proper railway vehicles and, being 1435mm gauge, were (much) wider. AFAIK they rode on Nissha arch-bar trucks so they would share one common trait with the 520s, that of being 2-motor cars.

 

Cheers NB

[sportinglife]

actually car body looks pretty much the same...

[marknewton]

Mark,

 

I guess this was done to circumvent regulations which must have restricted the use of trailers on street tramways. The powers-that-be of the time must have frowned on M+T formations on street trackage, but not on M+M...

 

Nick, you raise an interesting point. I can't think off hand of any Japanese street tramway that used trailer cars, at least in modern times. I have seen a photo of an Odawara Electric Railway motor and trailer set, but that was taken circa 1901. 

 

Also interesting is a photo I have of a Meitetsu driving trailer numbered 2151, which appears to be essentially identical to the 520 series motor cars. I'll scan and post it, so hopefully someone can read the caption and tell us a bit more about this car.

 

Cheers,

 

Mark.

[marknewton]

...RDCs didn't haul trailers because Budd and Allison (manufacturers of the torque converters used on the RDCs) frowned upon, if not downright objected, the use of trailers on the grounds that they would overload the transmissions. In one case (on the New Haven), Budd threatened with withdrawing the warranty on the cars if the railway did not desist from hauling trailers with them...

 

The Minneapolis and St Louis had the same problems with their two RDC-4s. In spite of Budd advising them not to, they used theirs to haul a boxcar loaded with mail. This buggered the engines and transmissions, with the result that they were in service for less than two years before being traded to the C&O for some hopper cars.

 

Cheers,

 

Mark.

[marknewton]

actually car body looks pretty much the same...

 

Nick is correct, the Nishitetsu cars were wider and longer than the 510/520 series cars.

 

Cheers,

 

Mark.

[Nick_Burman]

Nick is correct, the Nishitetsu cars were wider and longer than the 510/520 series cars.

 

Cheers,

 

Mark.

 

I din't know what year Nishitetsu's 200s were built, but what might have happened was that someone happened to be visiting Nippon Sharyo's works at the time the cars were being built and said, "look, these suit my bill perfectly - make me a copy!". If this is true, then I would say that it was Mino Denki who gave a hard look at the 200s and told NS to concoct copies. This isn't unheard of in the rail industry - in Spain RENFE ordered its 5500 series electrics based on a series of locos being built for Brazil by English Electric which a Spanish delegation happened to see being assembled at Newton-le-Willows at the time of their visit.

 

Cheers NB

[marknewton]

A good selection of photos of these cars is here:

 

http://www.agui.net/met/met510-all.html

 

Cheers,

 

Mark.

[sportinglife]

...are the couplers of the model "functional"?

[sportinglife]

Couplers are very tiny and look very prone to breakdown. Beside it seems very difficult to attach/detach. How do they work?

[bill937ca]

Mark,

 

And I didn't know that the 520s were of composite construction...tit for tat...

 

I guess this was done to circumvent regulations which must have restricted the use of trailers on street tramways. The powers-that-be of the time must have frowned on M+T formations on street trackage, but not on M+M. Also I guess it must have given an extra "oomph" when going up hills - I don't know about the profile of the Mino line, but having taken a 600-series interurban up the Ibi line (on BVE, of course) I know that there was a particularly nasty hill where the extra 2 traction motors would have come in handy.

 

 

Cheers Nb

 

Six-motor "trains" operated in Montreal, Toronto and Pittsburgh during the 1920s and this may just be a case of the Japanese following North American trends in traction equipment. Six-motor trains were in operation in Montreal  as early as 1913 on grades up to 13 per cent as described in the Electric Railway Journal.  All three systems dealt with steep grades. Six-motor operation in North America ended with the depression years.

Edited May 30, 2016 by bill937ca

[bill937ca]

Three interesting pages on Meitetsu 510, 520 and 750 series.