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bikkuri bahn

Move along folks, nothing unusual here...

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bikkuri bahn

Train falls from bridge:

(CBS/AP) ELLICOTT CITY, Md. - A CSX train hauling coal derailed and fell from a bridge in Ellicott City outside Baltimore, killing two people and crushing vehicles in a parking lot, authorities said.

 

Crews were checking each of the derailed cars for any other potential survivors, CBS Washington station WNEW-FM reports.

 

Twenty-one of the train's 80 cars flipped over around midnight Monday, Howard County officials said. Some of the train cars crushed parked vehicles in a nearby county-owned lot, County Executive Ken Ulman said. Cranes were brought in Tuesday morning to remove train cars from the vehicles so they can be searched for other potential victims.

 

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57497080/coal-train-falls-from-bridge-in-deadly-derailing/

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Densha

I've seen so many pics and even video's about live derailing American trains that it isn't really unusual for me to see actually. There must be something wrong with some railways out there. The fact that those two were killed seem like their own fault, however harsh it may be.

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cteno4

yes that is harsh and pretty unwarranted.

 

jeff

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Guest JRF-1935

Doesn't matter where a train derailment/accident occurs in the World - the loss of life being in the wrong place, at the wrong time, is NOT their own fault.  

 I'm also very disturbed by the "Title" of this thread.

Rich C

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marknewton

Whose is it, then?

 

Mark.

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westfalen

Whose is it, then?

 

Mark.

"killing two college students who had been drinking together and hanging out on the tracks."

You've been in the job long enough to know the railroad's to blame for that. :sad:

 

Nobody ever deserves to die but someone has to be at fault, in this case it's the two students.

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Guest JRF-1935

They weren't " Hangin Out" on the TRACKS - http://xfinity.comcast.net/articles/news-general/20120821/US.Md.Fatal.Train.Derailment/

and if you've ever been to Ellicot, MD you would know that sitting on this bridge and viewing EC,MD is something very special for folks done for Many years regarding it's history. 

Yes, someone is to blame, but not these 2 young ladies.

They lost their lives due to an unfortunate accident - something no one could have forseen.

Very dissapointed in how this incident  has been perceived and replied to by members. 

Rich C

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Guest JRF-1935

I've seen so many pics and even video's about live derailing American trains that it isn't really unusual for me to see actually. There must be something wrong with some railways out there. The fact that those two were killed seem like their own fault, however harsh it may be.

Very Callus remark - since you don't have the facts.

Rich C

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cteno4

To be fair us freight moves like 4x the freight as all western Europe combined over longer distances. Don't know what the freight safety/crash comparison is but I doubt it's hugely different when distances and tonnage is figured in.

 

Jeff

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westfalen

I have the facts. They were trespassing on the tracks on a railroad bridge under the influence of alcohol and got killed when a train derailed. Tough, but those are the facts.

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keitaro

do they know what the actual cause of the derailment was?? or is that still under investigation.

 

I was under a bridge in my car once in australia when a freight train derailed. luckily for me the train didn`t go off the bridge as they have to go slower at that section due to the decline there.

 

My car got peppered with ballast though.

 

Luckily shitty rail paid to fix up the car.

 

for those in aus it was at the M4 as you go up to blue mountains where it changes into great western highway.

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The_Ghan

JRF,

 

Calm down mate.  Two reports say they were on the tracks:

 

Young people often party in the nearby parking lot and often hang out on the tracks, despite fences around the area.

"It's just sort of a magnet for teenage high jinks," said Shelly Wygant of the Howard County Historical Society.

...

Young people often party in the nearby parking lot and often hang out on the tracks, despite fences around the area.

 

It wasn't clear whether the women's presence on the tracks had anything to do with the derailment. They were sitting on the edge of the bridge over Ellicott City's main street as the train passed a few feet behind them ...

 

While I agree these girls don't appear to have been skylarking, causing trouble, graffiting, or vandalising public property, they were apparently trespassing.  The fences are there for a reason.

 

Cheers

 

The_Ghan

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westfalen

JRF,

 

Calm down mate.  Two reports say they were on the tracks:

 

Young people often party in the nearby parking lot and often hang out on the tracks, despite fences around the area.

"It's just sort of a magnet for teenage high jinks," said Shelly Wygant of the Howard County Historical Society.

...

Young people often party in the nearby parking lot and often hang out on the tracks, despite fences around the area.

 

It wasn't clear whether the women's presence on the tracks had anything to do with the derailment. They were sitting on the edge of the bridge over Ellicott City's main street as the train passed a few feet behind them ...

 

While I agree these girls don't appear to have been skylarking, causing trouble, graffiting, or vandalising public property, they were apparently trespassing.  The fences are there for a reason.

 

Cheers

 

The_Ghan

We won't know unless some details of the investigation are forthcoming, but on rereading that second quote a possibilty sprung instantly to my mind. Could the derailment have been caused in part by the engineer putting the brakes into emergency after seeing the two girls on the tracks?

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Densha

yes that is harsh and pretty unwarranted.

 

jeff

I've seen so many pics and even video's about live derailing American trains that it isn't really unusual for me to see actually. There must be something wrong with some railways out there. The fact that those two were killed seem like their own fault, however harsh it may be.

Very Callus remark - since you don't have the facts.

Rich C

 

I know I should have not worded it not like that if you mean it like that, but like westfalen said they were trespassing even so. That doesn't mean that they "deserved it" or anything, but just stating only that and not more.

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Guest JRF-1935

JRF,

 

Calm down mate.  Two reports say they were on the tracks:

 

Young people often party in the nearby parking lot and often hang out on the tracks, despite fences around the area.

"It's just sort of a magnet for teenage high jinks," said Shelly Wygant of the Howard County Historical Society.

...

Young people often party in the nearby parking lot and often hang out on the tracks, despite fences around the area.

 

It wasn't clear whether the women's presence on the tracks had anything to do with the derailment. They were sitting on the edge of the bridge over Ellicott City's main street as the train passed a few feet behind them ...

 

While I agree these girls don't appear to have been skylarking, causing trouble, graffiting, or vandalising public property, they were apparently trespassing.  The fences are there for a reason.

 

Cheers

 

The_Ghan

We won't know unless some details of the investigation are forthcoming, but on rereading that second quote a possibilty sprung instantly to my mind. Could the derailment have been caused in part by the engineer putting the brakes into emergency after seeing the two girls on the tracks?

So far, Howard County police have said that the two 19-year-old women were sitting on one side of the bridge with their backs to the tracks as the train passed a few feet behind them; their bodies were found buried under coal dumped from the train cars.

 

Investigators have also said the train's emergency brakes were applied automatically — not by the three-man crew — around midnight Monday, but they don't know why part of the train jumped the tracks.

 

Southworth said the train's two locomotives did not derail and that the crew reported they "felt nothing, and they saw nothing before emergency braking occurred on their train." Investigators planned to remove the tracks from the crash site and reassemble them in a nearby parking lot for inspection

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The_Ghan

In Sydney, we have these things trackside near signals, presumably at the head of each block.  They operate on compressed air or hydraulics and stand up at 45o when there's a double red signal.  I've always presumed that (in the up position) they would hit a part of the train that activated an emergency brake.

 

00005b.jpg

 

Larger image here..

 

If my assumption is correct, I have also wondered just how much force is required to activate the brake.  Could, say, an animal such as a dog, be large enough to activate it?  ... or a person?

 

On topic: do they use such a system in the US?  Could a girl, slightly intoxicated or otherwise, have stretched out her arm (or worse) to feel the breeze through her fingers have accidently hit the lever that activates an emergency brake?

 

Notwithstanding any of the above, shouldn't all trains be able to stop safely when the emergency brake is applied?  Afterall, the point of the thing is to avoid or minimise death, injury, damage, etc., isn't it?

 

Cheers

 

The_Ghan

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marknewton

Ghan, the device in the photo is an intermediate train stop, which I won't explain now, but it's functionally the same as the automatic train stops located at each signal in electrified areas. They are operated either by air or electric motors - we don't use hydraulic power for any signalling/safeworking equipment. In basic terms, if the signal is at stop, the train stop arm is raised, and it will activate the trip cock on any train fitted with that equipment that passes the signal at stop.

 

I don't know what the actual force required operate the trip cock is, but I can tell you from personal experience that if you strike an animal or human in the right place, it will trip the train. So will tree branches, shopping trolleys, rubbish bins and milk crates. A few weeks back during a day of very strong winds, we tripped on a milk crate that was blown across the tracks near Wolli Creek.

 

As far as I'm aware, no US freight locomotives are fitted with a system like ours, although there are various forms of automatic train control in use on US railroads.

 

It's rare, but there are circumstances in which an emergency brake application can cause the train to divide, possibly collide with itself, and even derail, but I stress, it's rare. As far as this US accident goes, if the reports of the train going into emergency automatically are correct - and that's a BIG if, mainstream media are justly notorious for getting these thing utterly wrong - then I would suspect either defective track or one of the coal hoppers suffering a mechanical failure as a likely cause.

 

Cheers,

 

Mark

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bikkuri bahn

As a note, I titled the thread as a reference to the fact that big freight rail derailments seem to be taken for granted in the States, even when mass mayhem of fireballs burning for days (in the case of a recent derailment in the midwest, as well as the head on collision in OK) and yes, death are involved.  As it was early in the news cycle, this was before the reports of the trespassing girls on the railway line. I may have titled the post differently in retrospect.  However, given the unfolding details, there seems to be in fact some highly unusual aspects to this incident.  Take the title as you will...

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bill937ca

In Sydney, we have these things trackside near signals, presumably at the head of each block.  They operate on compressed air or hydraulics and stand up at 45o when there's a double red signal.  I've always presumed that (in the up position) they would hit a part of the train that activated an emergency brake.

 

00005b.jpg

 

Larger image here..

 

If my assumption is correct, I have also wondered just how much force is required to activate the brake.  Could, say, an animal such as a dog, be large enough to activate it?  ... or a person?

 

On topic: do they use such a system in the US?  Could a girl, slightly intoxicated or otherwise, have stretched out her arm (or worse) to feel the breeze through her fingers have accidently hit the lever that activates an emergency brake?

 

Notwithstanding any of the above, shouldn't all trains be able to stop safely when the emergency brake is applied?  Afterall, the point of the thing is to avoid or minimise death, injury, damage, etc., isn't it?

 

Cheers

 

The_Ghan

 

These things are not fool proof.  There was a famous case in the Toronto subway where the trip-arm did not stop a train that ran a double red.  The car rocked as it passed the signal and the third rail shoe did not engage the trip arm.  The motorman drove into the back of another train at Russell Hill.

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bikkuri bahn

As an aside, there is a trip arm device on display at the Tokyo Metro Museum in Kasai, Tokyo.  Visited the other week, one of the more interesting things on display there.

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marknewton
These things are not fool proof.  There was a famous case in the Toronto subway where the trip-arm did not stop a train that ran a double red.  The car rocked as it passed the signal and the third rail shoe did not engage the trip arm.  The motorman drove into the back of another train at Russell Hill.

 

I'm not familiar with this accident, Bill, so I won't comment until I've done a bit of reading, other than to say that in 37 years on the job here I've never encountered a danger-side failure with our design of train stops.

 

Cheers,

 

Mark.

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marknewton

They weren't " Hangin Out" on the TRACKS

 

Splitting hairs about whether they were actually on the track or not is irrelevant. They put themselves in danger by being in the rail corridor, inside what is known on my railway as the "danger zone". The more recent stories indicate that they were in the danger zone:

 

"Shelley Wygant of the Howard County Historical Society said the edge of the bridge on which the women sat, facing the Patapsco River, is at least two feet from the single set of railroad tracks."

 

and if you've ever been to Ellicot, MD you would know that sitting on this bridge and viewing EC,MD is something very special for folks done for Many years

 

Which doesn't make it safe OR sensible. I've never gone there, but if I did the LAST thing I'd do is sit on a railroad bridge two feet from live track. There's a really good reason why it's called the danger zone, and this incident demonstates that reason perfectly.

 

Yes, someone is to blame, but not these 2 young ladies.

 

Again, if they aren't responsible for being in the danger zone, who is?

 

Cheers,

 

Mark.

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Guest JRF-1935

They weren't " Hangin Out" on the TRACKS

 

Splitting hairs about whether they were actually on the track or not is irrelevant. They put themselves in danger by being in the rail corridor, inside what is known on my railway as the "danger zone". The more recent stories indicate that they were in the danger zone:

 

"Shelley Wygant of the Howard County Historical Society said the edge of the bridge on which the women sat, facing the Patapsco River, is at least two feet from the single set of railroad tracks."

 

and if you've ever been to Ellicot, MD you would know that sitting on this bridge and viewing EC,MD is something very special for folks done for Many years

 

Which doesn't make it safe OR sensible. I've never gone there, but if I did the LAST thing I'd do is sit on a railroad bridge two feet from live track. There's a really good reason why it's called the danger zone, and this incident demonstates that reason perfectly.

 

Yes, someone is to blame, but not these 2 young ladies.

 

Again, if they aren't responsible for being in the danger zone, who is?

 

Cheers,

 

Mark.

No Comment - Now or "Forever More"  Good Bye JNS Forum

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cteno4

Perhaps it's best to wait for the report of what really happened instead of just supposing what happened. I can't understand the need to feel like this is not something sad. Perhaps if it was someone you knew the words and thoughts would be a bit gentler.

 

I'm done with this.

 

Jeff

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The_Ghan

Hey JRF,

 

Cheers mate.  The forum is a place for healthy debate.  Different people are just saying what they think, which is the point of the place.  I can't speak for others here, but too many times people have died needlessly on railways around the world, leaving the rest of us to say, once again, "If only ... "  I certainly respect your position.  For one, it raises the question whether the train should have derailed at all, irrespective of how or why the emergency brake was activated or whether or not people were where they shouldn't be. 

 

Cheers

 

The_Ghan

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