JR East To Retire E1系 Shinkansen By September 29 Timetable Revision

[200系]

Are you sure they will replace the E2's? Because the E7's seem more like an extension for the new track rather than a replacement for older trains.

Is the life cycle for a Shinkansen around 20 years then?

 

More or less' date=' if you look at it historically 15~20 years is about the average lifespan for shinkansen equipment, this even goes for the bulk of the bulk of the 'longer living' shinkansen series like the 0系, 200系 and 100系. For example, the 0系 is noted for it's long live span, while this is true only for the (later) R formations (R61 and up) and some select cars (Surviving 0番台 and 1000番台 cars in late 1990's Nh/Sk formations have reached 20~24 year lives, but these where exceptions). The majority of 0系/200系/100系 had a lifetime of "only" 15~20 years, with a lot of 1981~86 build 0系2000番台 cars being scrapped in the 1994~1999/2000 period with at most 18/19 years of service and generally less. Same applies for the bulk of the 100系 build in 1988~1991 (G and V formations, basically the entire series (minus the 6 X pilot formations and the prototype), which where retired between 2002/2003 with only the 1988 builds (only 5 of the total of 59 formations (excluding the 7 X formations), the rest being later builds) reaching 15 years of age. A few of the V formation cars survived by being reformed into K and P formations, but the bulk of 100系 cars where scrapped after the X/G/V Formations where disbanded in the 2000~2003 period.

 

It is interesting to note 2 of the exceptions to this rule, 0系0番台 formations H1 and H2 where retired in 1977 after 'only' 13 years of service (at which time they did accumulate 6.7 million Km in this period. for comparison it took the SNCF CC7100 class of locomotives about 24 years to get 8 million km and that was considered unique back then). On the other end of the spectrum you have 200系 K21 formation whose 200系0番台 (cars 2~4 and 7~9, or 6 out of 10 cars) reached the astonishing (for a Shinkansen that is) age of 29 years and 9/10 months, when she was retired in February this year.

 

So yes, to cut a long story short (like I'd pass an opportunity like this ), there's a big chance the E7系 when it is introduced, which will probably either early 2013 or later (couldn't find much info on it yet, so it seems to be at least some ways off), will replace the earlier E2系 formations (at least the N formations, which where all build between ~1997 and 1999). Just like the E6系 will in all likelihood replace early E3系0番台 cars.

What will happen with the E2系0番台 J formations I'm not 100% sure, my hunch is that those will be displaced by E2系1000番台 (in turn displaced by E5系 formations) on the Tōhoku Shinkansen, and will in turn displace the remaining E4系 formations on the Jōetsu Shinkansen. But as I said this is just a hunch, as even the E2系 J formations will be ~15/18 years old at that point.

 

It looks kinda stupid that they don't connect it to the Tokaido shinkansen as well. Connecting to Shin-Osaka even results in three Shinkansen lines at one station.

 

Well connecting to the Tōkaidō Shinkansen would be extremely difficult considering it is at near or at max capacity as it is right now, so it would have be build next to the Tōkaidō Shinkansen (creating a 4 track setup, similar to the Tōhoku/Jōetsu pairing between Ōmiya-Haraichikita) which would be very expensive taking into account the extra real estate necessary.

 

Also take into account that while the Tōkaidō/Sanyō Shinkansen are separate Shinkansen lines, the Sanyō Shinkansen is in principle an extension of the Tōkaidō Shinkansen, quite a few trains (notably Nozomi and some Hikari services) are through services on both Shinkansen (both Tōkai and West have large fleets of 16 car 700 and N700 trains used on both), while the Hokuriku Shinkansen needs specialized equipment (50/60Hz capable, as opposed to the pure 60Hz West/Tōkai equipment).

 

Sort of. But I meant to say that I thought the E7's were going to do Tokyo-Kanazawa and the E2's would keep their old route Tokyo-Nagano. But will the E2's use the Hokuriku line as well or end at Nagano?

 

if they are still around in 2015 (if they open on time), I don't see why they wouldn't be used on through services initially. I mean a single 200系 formation (F80 originally F17) was modified for 50/60Hz operations at the opening of the Nagano Shinkansen (only lasted until there where enough E2系 N formations, but still). So I don't see why a similar situation couldn't occur here, wheter it will last, I don't think so, but at this moment only JR East knows the plans for Hokuriku Shinkansen operations.

 

hope the long post doesn't scare people off .

 

-Sander

[Densha]

Sander,

 

Well I'm glad the later E2's will not get replaced in the coming years.

 

I already knew of certain differences and capacities, but your post makes it more clear. I think it's weird that they made a plan to connect the Hokuriku and Tokaido shinkansen in the aforementioned map if it would be that difficult to realize. Just theoretically: if the infrastructure is a problem, they could also decide to use the most left option which only affects (the station of) Shin-Osaka and connects the Hokuriku, Tokaido and Sanyo at one place.  But the possibility to travel fast from the Western cities where the Hokuriku Shinkansen stops to Tokyo using the Tokaido line (even with a change at Maibara) is gone in that case.

After some thinking I came again to another conclusion: why not just connect Tsuruga-Maibara? Then Maibara would become a transfer station where you can transfer for the Tokaido line and you don't need to extend a lot of infrastructure.

I assume that it's not possible to let Hokuriku trains ride on the Tokaido line, and I read that both Shinkansen lines (Tohoku and Tokaido) aren't connected in Tokyo as well because of those reasons, so making a circle is not possible unfortunately. But it would be fun if they could.

 

So the E2 could not use the Hokuriku line without making changes to electrics? Or do I just interpret you wrong?

[200系]

^No, I should have put it in a more logical way. The E2系 N and J1~J15 formations (E2系0番台, the E2系1000番台 are all pure 50Hz units) where build with the ability to run on both 25KV 50Hz (as used by JR East Shinkansen) and 25KV 60Hz (as used on JR Tōkai and JR West Shinkansen), as the Nagano/Hokuriku Shinkansen crosses into 60Hz territory (Japan is divided into 50Hz and 60Hz, the dividing line is I believe about 100km west of Tōkyo (Here in Europe we use 50Hz if I'm not mistaken)). I was mentioning 200系 Formation F80 (which as a pure 50Hz unit, had to be modified to run on 60Hz as well) because it was an example of a different series being used as a placeholder for a short time, I can imagine this made my post less clear, so my apologies for that.

[Densha]

Ah right like that. But the conclusion is that it's not possible to physically connect North-East of Tokyo with South-West lines. In Europe there are a lot of trains that switch between different frequencies and voltages, even high speed trains like the Thalys. But isn't it actually possible for 60Hz trains to use 50Hz overhead? (may seem a stupid question, but who knows)

[200系]

It's not that it's physically impossible to connect those two, as the eventual plan is to connect those two at Ōsaka at a later date and Nagano Shinkansen trains actually do switch frequency when they leave the Jōetsu Shinkansen, it's not that the physical infrastructure of the Tōkaidō Shinkansen can't be used because of any technological concerns (even though I believe the DS-ATC system used by JR East and JR Tōkai/West are different) but because of operational constrains; the Tōkaidō is the busiest high-speed line in the world*, So there simply isn't any additional capacity to add the extra trains necessary for full East/West services. So when they'll eventually connect at Ōsaka, a lot of extra infrastructure has to be added for the Tōkaidō Shinkansen to be able to absorb the extra trains.

 

*It's no coincidence that the Tōkaidō Shinkansen is the only Shinkansen which runs 16 car formations only (since ~1991), and even then, during rush hour one departs every few minutes (sometimes as quick as 3 minutes as the last one, no longer then 10 minutes after the last one), truly a very impressive spectacle to see in real life.

Also take into account the fact that even with this many trains there are still more then 15 flights a day (per airline, so both JAL and ANA)  between Tōkyo Haneda and Ōsaka airport, not with equipment like 737's/A320 as in Europe, but with mostly 777-200/300's equiped with 400+ seats.

[Densha]

I know, but I sort of thought electronically could be sorted under physical as well but that doesn't make any sense actually. But still does, does it mean (electronically) that there are trains that could travel Tokyo-Nagano-Kanazawa-Tokaido line if it would be built? (not taking the capacity in consideration) If it does, what happened to the 50/60Hz case?

 

That makes me curious how many people would choose the train over the airplane if there would be more Shinkansen. I assume that most seats are occupied on the Tokaido line.

[200系]

I'm not sure if I understand your question, but yes there are trains that would be able to use that route, the current E2系0番台 already does switch between 25Kv 50Hz and 25Kv 60Hz near/at Sakudaira stations. Between Sakudaira and Nagano they run at 25Kv 60Hz (the same as used on the 'Western Shinkansen') and they run on 25Kv 50Hz between Sakudaira and Takasaki where they use the Jōetsu Shinkansen all the way till Tōkyo station.

 

does this answer your question?

[Densha]

Exactly the answer to my question. I'm a happy man. :)

[Sacto1985]

I personally think the Hokuriku Shinkansen will be a be LOT more popular than people think.

 

The problem with the cities on the Sea of Japan shoreline except for Niigata is that because up till now they don't have shinkansen service, getting to cities like Toyama and Kanazawa can take 2-3 hours for a one way journey from Osaka and even longer from Tokyo with the current limited express train service. With the new service, we could shave maybe over a hour off the current journey time, at first from Tokyo.

 

As for extending the shinkansen line from Tsuruga back to the Kansai region, I think the most likely route will be paralleling the Kosei Line along the west shore of Lake Biwa so the Hokuriku Shinkansen train ends at Kyoto Station, where passengers can transfer to Nozomi/Hikari/Kodama shinkansen trains for journeys westward to transfer to local JR trains for access cities in the Kansai region.

[Tecchan]

I've even read about converting some lines to accomodate mini-shinkansen. Which is not the fastest way for the trains but certainly the cheapest!