The_Ghan Posted January 20, 2012 Author Share Posted January 20, 2012 Thanks Angus, Unfortunately HS is ignoring me. Was that the discreet NZ Border Patrol drugs check speering? Cheers The_Ghan Link to comment
KenS Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 I just ordered my Kato 2012 catalog from HS (along with a bunch of other stuff). I'll let you know how it compares to past versions when it arrives in a week or so. Link to comment
The_Ghan Posted January 21, 2012 Author Share Posted January 21, 2012 I just ordered my Kato 2012 catalog from HS (along with a bunch of other stuff). I'll let you know how it compares to past versions when it arrives in a week or so. Thanks KenS I look forward to your update. Cheers The_Ghan Link to comment
inobu Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 The_Ghan, first off you are not being picky as new catalogs are sold in pristine condition which is what you paid for. I'm trying to to avoid any PC issues in this response but the truth and reality sometimes infringes on those boundaries....... so here goes. Japan is a very different culture and one that is hard for us (gaikokujin) to read into. There are a lot of known but unspoken forms of etiquette. Raised floors indicate to take your shoes off. The receiving area to a home will usually be raised about 7 or 8 inches (16,17 cm.) indicating you should take off your shoes and put on slippers. How does this correlate to the catalog? The Japanese are high on respect and presentation, how that copy got to you started with someone placing it in the box. If you noticed packages are wrapped nicely as it is a form of presentation. Whoever packed the shipment made a decision to send it. The question is, was your catalog the last copy at the bottom of a wet case, a series of books in a damp case or was it in the overseas box in which the shipper had no choice in the matter. The question cannot be answered by us. The Japanese don't normally point fingers but make suggestions to possibilities. I'm going to translate their response. However, unfortunately they had not been very helpful and could only tell us that they are all the same this year. Kato - we printed and shipped out the 2012 catalog, the information on the pages are all identical. Kato is only going to answer to what they are responsible for. We apologize for your inconvenience, but your understanding would be greatly appreciated. HS is saying .........This is our closing response on the matter, help us out by moving on. Here is my thoughts......Japan is changing and they are having to deal with a changing culture based on Generation XYZ or what ever....the quality that we have seen before may be something of the past..... more and more guys on the forum are seeing broken parts shipped. The question is where is the problem coming from? The manufacture and their outsourced plants or the new generation of internet distributors? Think about it. You have 10K worth of stuff to focus on don't let a few flaky pages ruin your enjoyment. .....with the amount you spend I should just build a point and click web site for you and do all the ordering on the back side. Making sure all your packaging are perfect even insuring that each bubble is un-popped on the wrapping. 10K............that's good enjoyment money. Inobu. Link to comment
cteno4 Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 Inobu i think you have some good wisdom here. western culture gets in to the customer is always right mentality and this can clash with some of the older and evolving cultural norms of japan. tack onto this ordering things from very afar and i think it adds up to some stuff can happen, so as you say dont let it affect your enjoyment of the hobby. a couple of years ago hs shipped me a train ems while i was on vacation (preorder came in). the local postmaster followed usps rules which are express packages (like an ems is when it hits the states) are returned if not picked up after 7 days. i had a vacation hold in with the post, but unfortunately express mail packages are handled differently that the rest of the mail and the vacation hold notice wont get over to those dealing with express mail in the larger stations. in smaller stations folks will notice this and bend the express rules and not start the 7 day clock ticking till you get home. anyway the upshot was the package was returned to hs. i had to pay shipping a second time to get hs to send the package, it was either this or loose the whole thing, hs would not give a refund or exchange on the returned item. it miffed me quite a bit. while i did not expect them to pay for the second shipping i was seriously not wanting to spend the second shipping charge for the item anymore (shipping was about half the cost of the item) and just wanted to get the price of the item credited to my account to spend on something else. they refused to do this and this upset me as i have been a very long standing customer with thousands of dollars spent at hs over the years. i was upset with them for quite a while over this, but in the end i came to the same conclusion that this sort of fell under stuff happens and it was not worth getting that upset over in the scheme of things and in dealing with a japanese store i need to behave japanese. The event was triggered by something totally out of hs's control, so i probably should not expect them to do anything special to cover that. yeah it was $30 gone, but in the end not worth the angst i spent on it. here is where the two cultures clash. western culture says you do extra to keep the good customer even though out of their control, and as inobu noted the japanese culture a customer would not assume that hs would have to assume any responsibility for something out of their control. with the catalog, if it did happen before it was sent to you then yes you think that maybe someone at hs should have caught it and noticed that something was amiss, but at first glance the bit of warping to the catalog would probably not be noticed by the packer or something they thought might just flatten out. it could have gotten damp in transit to you. who knows. its probably for sure its a very limited issue to either your shipment or a small shipment to hs or w/in the printing process. probably not a huge level or more squawking would be heard. in the end i learned to chocked it up to some stuff is going to go wrong in life and as long as thats a small percentage then its nothing to worry about and best to just move on and let it all go. better to enjoy the 99% great stuff than to dwell too much on the 1% unfortunate stuff. cheers jeff Link to comment
The_Ghan Posted January 22, 2012 Author Share Posted January 22, 2012 Hi inobu and cteno4, Firstly, let me say that I take your point about the Japanese culture. I did my senior year of highschool there and graduated at Kofu Higashi High. My email to HS reflected my understanding of Japanese culture also. I also understood the subtle meaning of the reply I received. Of course I'm not going to let one sub-standard catalog spoil my enjoyment. But I bought a new catalog and, to be frank, the one I've got has pages that creak when you turn them and it looks like it comes from the stack of magazines kept behind the toilet door. I've got another catalog on order from elsewhere. If it is in a similar condition I'll eat humble pie, otherwise the HS one is being sent back. I know you think I'm not getting your point but I say you aren't getting my point, which is this: why aren't you all complaining just like me? HS has told me you've all got catalogs the same as mine. You're all telling me you don't! If you all did then I wouldn't be complaining. If HS had just sent me another catalog, as good as all of yours, then I would never have started this thread. Why should I suck it in? It's my money! If I accept this catalog tell me why I shouldn't accept trains with scratched sleeves? This is an HS problem, not a Ghan problem. The_Ghan just placed an order with Bigman - no problem! Cheers The_Ghan Link to comment
inobu Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 Ghan you have every right and to demand what you paid for.....my comment is a mere reminder that the world of "principles" is becoming a thing of the past......even in Japan. They are taking over the world and do not understand the factors of principles. You are going after an issue that has merit to us but means nothing to "them". As a friend of the forum I am just pulling your arm and saying leave it just as if you were going to enter into a bar fight. If you want to snatch your arm and continue on it is your choice I'm just saying lets enjoy the rest of the night and go to that bar over there. Inobu Murphy Laws should have Big Man sending you a catalog with a torn page...then what? I am not trivializing your issue but just reminding you that things are not as they use to be. Link to comment
cteno4 Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 Ghan I think both inobu and I agree that the catalog is not up to par and hs should have caught it before it ever got to you and you did not get the quality product you were expecting and deserve. It's as inobu illuded to, we were just trying to tug you out the door before the bar fight as this thread was sort of asking should you jump into the frey or not. I'm a bit puzzled why you asked for input if you feel this is just unacceptable and are willing to pay to send it back on principle. Totally up to you to do that and I can understand both your upset and the principle, we were just asking is it really worth it. Guess you got what you paid for our 0 cents worth, so you will have to keep our warped and crackly responses as we are not taking any returns, refunds, or store credits. Cheers Jeff Link to comment
KenS Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 My Kato 2012 catalog arrived today from Hobby Search, along with a Tomix catalog, and I do see some of the same waviness that you do. I'll also note that mine seems less pronounced, and when actually reading the catalog I don't notice anything; it's only visible end-on. Attached is a photo showing (bottom to top): the old 2011 Kato catalog, the new 2012 Kato catalog, and the new Tomix catalog. These are standing on end, held up by leaning against a slightly inclined sheet of hardboard, so gravity isn't flattening them, and you're seeing all of the waviness in the paper. As you can see, there's a faint amount of the same kind of waviness in the old Kato catalog, and a lesser amount in the Tomix. This suggests that at least in part it's an artifact of the printing process and Kato's supplier has more of it than Tomix's. And if the old catalog is anything to go by, it will go away somewhat over time (my 2011 catalog has been lying flat on the floor next to the couch and on various shelves over the past year; it's never made it into upright storage in a bookcase yet). BTW, when HS shipped these (in a box with miscellaneous other small plastic things) they were both wrapped very heavily in plastic (not bubble wrap, just plastic) and taped. I don't think it would be water-tight if the box were immersed, but it was pretty well protected. It's still possible yours was damaged in some way, or perhaps the ones on the top of the pallet are more wavy than the ones at the bottom of the pile. But I suspect HS was telling the truth when they said they were all wavy. Link to comment
The_Ghan Posted January 31, 2012 Author Share Posted January 31, 2012 KenS, Thanks for following up mate. It's appreciated. Yes, my latest correspondence from HS included similar photos of their own stock, although it also doesn't seem as bad as mine. I am accepting their position on the matter and they have kindly extended the offer to refund my purchase should I return the catalog to them. I also agree with you that mine does seem to be especially bad. Some of the pages between p20-p40 actually creak as you turn them and have become stiff. I week in front of the dehumidifier failed to improve the matter. My position now is this: I intend to include another catalog with my next order from Bigman. If it is substantially better then I will return the HS one, the point being that they advice Kato of the customer return. Without the feedback we can't expect any improvement. Perhaps someone further up the line will pay more attention with next year's catalog. Cheers The_Ghan Link to comment
Tecchan Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 KenS, Thanks for following up mate. It's appreciated. Yes, my latest correspondence from HS included similar photos of their own stock, although it also doesn't seem as bad as mine. I am accepting their position on the matter and they have kindly extended the offer to refund my purchase should I return the catalog to them. I also agree with you that mine does seem to be especially bad. Some of the pages between p20-p40 actually creak as you turn them and have become stiff. I week in front of the dehumidifier failed to improve the matter. My position now is this: I intend to include another catalog with my next order from Bigman. If it is substantially better then I will return the HS one, the point being that they advice Kato of the customer return. Without the feedback we can't expect any improvement. Perhaps someone further up the line will pay more attention with next year's catalog. Cheers The_Ghan Put it one week in front of the dehumidifier with a whole encyclopedia on top, this will probably flatten it a bit. But as I said, paper and inks work in mysterious ways... If they just stored the boxes outside on a rainy night, it could just be enough for the paper to get moist... :-/ Link to comment
The_Ghan Posted January 31, 2012 Author Share Posted January 31, 2012 Actually kumo, I did just that. The problem is that the paper has stretched. I had the room humidity below 35% for about a week, and then came the stack of books. I have some experience with 4 colour offset printing (I'm talking about 20 years ago). I would say the paper was moist as it went through the printer or binder. That's life, I guess. Cheers The_Ghan Link to comment
Densha Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 I just asked a Dutch retailer if he can deliver a 2012 catalog, but apparently Noch (the European distributor) doesn't have them yet. So, do you think I should just order it at HS, at another (?) online shop, or just wait until it finally comes in? (it is still TBA) Link to comment
The_Ghan Posted February 1, 2012 Author Share Posted February 1, 2012 Densha, They will be coming by sea, I guess, so they won't be in until March or April. I suggest you wait as the 2012 is remarkably similar to 2011 and 2010. If you REALLY can't bear to wait, I suggest purchasing from Bigman, as HS don't discount the catalog. Also, my "problem catalog" came from HS. Hopefully Bigman got a different batch. Cheers The_Ghan Link to comment
Densha Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 This will be my first kato catalog, so it's difficult to wait. But I guess I'll wait then, since I prefer having a good one over having one fast. Link to comment
rpierce000 Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 Here is a shot taken of catalogs for sale at the Yokohama train show: Bob Link to comment
The_Ghan Posted February 3, 2012 Author Share Posted February 3, 2012 Thanks Bob, Hmmm .... they are a bit disappointing, aren't they. Still, I think mine is particularly bad ... and p20 is a shocker. At least now I am confident that HS was telling me the truth. I'm sure Kato is aware of the problem. Cheers The_Ghan Link to comment
linkey Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 Thanks Bob, Hmmm .... they are a bit disappointing, aren't they. Still, I think mine is particularly bad ... and p20 is a shocker. At least now I am confident that HS was telling me the truth. I'm sure Kato is aware of the problem. Cheers The_Ghan I just got my second batch on the KATO Catelogue due to an incident with my first KATO catelogue and water damage from the festival I was at, and can say that my second KATO catelogue does look wavey but not as bad as your first photo. I will take photos of my water damaged (1st KATO catelogue) next to my new one that came through yesterday to show you the difference. So I would say it would be a printing issue not shipping as again HS had wrapped up my catelogues :P Link to comment
cteno4 Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 could still be a shipping issue from the printer to kato or to distributors with excessive moisture in some storage or transport place. we have had cases of books come through from the printer with some warpage due to some boxes probably getting soaked or damp along the way somewhere. on later book run we had the distribution warehouse look through all the cases upon delivery. it cost like 20 cents a book to do that, but it paid for itself in the refund from the books damaged in transit (it was higher than the contract error rate) and more than paid for itself in not having them get to a customer. its always hard to determine where and how the goof happens usually and everyone likes to point their finger at each other... jeff Link to comment
clem24 Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 That definitely doesn't look water damage to me... I dunno maybe I am not as picky. It's just a catalog; it'll be replaced in a year anyway LOL. I leave mine in the bathroom anyway hahaha (and each bathroom has various versions from differing years to stir things up a bit). Link to comment
Hobby Dreamer Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 These aren't the droids you are looking for.... Move along... Move along... R2D2: Vooo Voo VOOOO! C3PO: I know R2, I cannot understand over 1000 views either... Link to comment
linkey Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 Here is my photos of the catelogues: Photo 1: Newest KATO 2012 Catelogue Photo 2: the water damagaed KATO 2012 catelogue The newest catelogue is wavy but not as bad as the water damaged catelogue Link to comment
cteno4 Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 might have been cheaper, lighter paper that they didnt back off the ink so got too wet in printing as well, but the fact the whole thing warps together makes it seem like the warping happened after cutting and binding, and by then things are dry (can do the cutting and binding if its damp at all due to how things are slid around) so the warping would not be uniform like this does seem like it was an issue with a lot or all of the catalogs... jeff Link to comment
inobu Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 These aren't the droids you are looking for.... Move along... Move along... R2D2: Vooo Voo VOOOO! C3PO: I know R2, I cannot understand over 1000 views either... UR2FUNEE......lol......but true..... Link to comment
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