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How should BT Trains conduct business on the JNS Forum System


Where should BT Trains post?  

18 members have voted

  1. 1. Where should BT Trains post?

    • BT Trains should only post in one forum and one topic
      5
    • BT Trains should only post in one forum, but multiple topics
      2
    • BT Trains should post in any forum where the post matches the subject of the forum
      5
    • BT Trains should not post on JNS Forum. Bob Pierce can, but only as an individual.
      2
    • BT Trains and the products they supply are not of interest to me and I do not want them posted on JNS Forum
      1
    • BT Trains offers a valuable tool to JNS Forum members and should be allowed to work within the same limit as any other member.
      3


Recommended Posts

I have had a request that I keep all BT Trains announcements in this forum. I see that as reasonable and will do so. That does not mean that I will not COMMENT on other topics in other areas of the forum or introduce topics in areas of the forum that I have information or knowledge for. I do put a BT Trains "twist" to many of these, that is what I do to feed family.

 

The other request was that I do it all with ONE topic "BT Trains - Seattle". Unless I get a LARGE number of people protesting my putting up new topics for new shipments and other announcements that may be of interest, I will continue to do so.

 

The most likely place that I am going to place additional announcements is the Trams and Trollies area, BT Trains has enjoyed great success with this group.

 

BT Trains wishes to be a responsible member of the JNS Forum society, please let us know how you feel about how we should function.

 

To facilitate garnering your opinions on these matters I have created this poll to express your desires. BT Trains will abide by the results.

 

Bob Pierce

BT Trains

bob@bttrains.com

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Bob,

 

If you are going to post something about the said item in a thread and you're will to stock this item then have it linked up to the BT Trains seattle thread for people to quickly respond through that way. As it would give an avenue to those who would be wiling to get the item to a thread that they can get in contact with.

 

Just wished there was an Australian store that would do the similar thing lol.

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Linkey,

 

In your vision I would participate in a discussion and then link over to a VERY LONG topic called BT Trains to tell them I would do business with them?

 

"Hello we are talking about a Tomix zzz." Bob pops up, "We can get you one of those, please go to this thread: (link here)" instead of (We can get you one of those, contact me at bob@bttrains.com) (Personally I think the direct connection to email does more for me)

 

Bob continues with things he knows about Tomix zzz or takes part in some of the joking that goes on around here.

 

The person who links to Bob's thread gets to a thread with many pages in it.

 

What does that person DO at that point?

 

If they enter "Bob I need a Tomix zzz", they are up there with 50 other people over the last year who have asked for a whatever. They do not know if they have been heard until I fish them out of the soup and email them.

 

What I propose is that I leave my email when I am offering services to folks and when I am making a blatant commercial announcement I will put it in the Suppliers forum. This would include a Valentines Day sale announcement, the next shipment announcement and so forth. I would also announce new products I had found in that forum.

 

If I am in ANY other forum the most BT Trains I will do is "I can help you get one of those/help you out with that. Email me at bob@bttrains.com"

 

Does this sound reasonable?

 

I want us all to be friends here and I thought that was true, but the email and poll votes tell me there is a group that disagrees. I want to be open to hearing from them either here in this forum or in my email bob@bttrains.com.

 

I await further input.

 

Bob

 

I have been just leaving my email for folks to contact me, I guess I can just leave that in a topic.

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True it will become lenghtly like the Production threads of KATO, TOMIX and Micro ACE. If you write that you will be getting some of these items and they e-mail you, they could even pm you to the thread they are responding to. Just a thought, as I was chuckling with Ghans comment prior of the two for one.

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Bob,

 

If you are going to post something about the said item in a thread and you're will to stock this item then have it linked up to the BT Trains seattle thread for people to quickly respond through that way. As it would give an avenue to those who would be wiling to get the item to a thread that they can get in contact with.

 

Just wished there was an Australian store that would do the similar thing lol.

 

Ouch. If that wasn't a shot across the bow, then I sure in hell don't know what is.

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its a whicky sticket. hard to form really hard and fast rules on this sort of things, but its looking like something wants to be done. few issues come to mind that need mulling for me:

 

• should the forum become and advertising venue directly from dealers?

 

• while great to know where/how to get things is it fair to japanese dealers that cant really participate here easily/practically for bob to be able post everywhere in the forum that he has or can get things.

 

• links to vendor sites in the forums will can also greatly benefit their google search rankings (depending on how you optimize pages for this sort of thing). forum members do a lot of posting to products, but should the vendors themselves be able to do this?

 

• could say they can email off list if someone asks where to get some particular thing, but then someone else reading later wont get the benefit of knowing where to get something.

 

• heavy dealer involvement can run the risk of spats, its happened on other lists, not saying it will here, just that it has happened.

 

• would new members seeing primary bttrains as the only vendor on the list think that that is an endorsement of bttrains by the forum?

 

• getting more direct feedback to/from dealers is really good for the hobby in general.

 

• should bob pierce japanese train guy be a full forum member and be able to post far and wide, but would this need to have some identification that he is also a vendor as this could be conflict of interest? but should bob pierce bttrains owner be a separate member and have limited options as a vendor.

 

this does probably need to get thought through carefully and some rules created as captoblivious is starting a train business and others might come along later. its obviously had some push-back by members already.

 

im not going up or down on these things, just pointing out some of the issues that are circling in my head.

 

jrm has had many of these issues discussed a lot over the years and it always fell back on having no direct public advertising or source information, but doing it all privately, person to person so its not coming from the group as we have a whole spectrum of opinions on the matter and it was the only way to make the club neutral.

 

cheers

 

jeff

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Thinking about it, this is a hard question to answer, and so far I can't figure out how to select one of the poll items.

 

I'll note that I don't have any issues with Bob or his postings, but since the question has been asked I think it need to be answered and in a way that applies more generally than just as a question about BT trains.

 

I think, as a general rule, we don't want advertising on the forum.  At the same time, BT trains is providing a useful service to at least some of us (I've ordered things from Bob and been quite satisfied, and will order again; I've got something in the works with Bob right now).  However, I think we need to consider how we'd handle other suppliers who wanted to post here.  Many on this forum are not fans of Newhall Station, and yet they too provide a useful service (access to out-of-circulation models, at a significant cost). And some of us (me included) have done business with them even knowing how outrageous their prices are.  So would we answer the question differently for them, and if so, is that fair?  What about MB Klein (modeltrainstuff)? What about a random hobby store somewhere else that happened to have a Tomix model gathering dust and wanted people to know it was available?  Or one that had imported a bunch of finetrack as a one-time experiment?

 

And, I think we want to encourage "domestic" suppliers and stores in all of our countries to stock/import/special-order/make products oriented at the Japanese-prototype modeler. Giving them some restricted "advertising" priviledges, as long as it doesn't become a nuisance, is definitely in our interest.  The other extreme is that we say the forum (outside of classifieds) is totally non-commercial and nothing that smacks of advertising is allowed.  I think that's overly restrictive, but if we're going to go that route we should be consistent and apply it to Bob (and to Don's DCC products).

 

My take is that it's reasonable for a supplier to have a "what's new with me" thread in the Suppliers forum and post pretty much anything there (Bob's "contact info" thread could fill that role, for example).  It's also reasonable for them to add simple posts to a thread in the "what's new" forum that says "I have these" or "I can get these".  I'd be a little less open to a supplier adding a thread about something not being discussed there to say "I just got these and they're cool".  As a hobbyist it's a perfectly reasonable thing to say, but it's also advertising (subtle, but where do you draw the line?).  However, if we don't allow that, we may be denying ourselves useful info. I'm on the fence on that.

 

When it comes to posting on other threads, I don't think a supplier should be allowed to start new threads.  Bob, as an individual, should.  However because he's also a supplier I think he (and other store owners/managers) need to be held to a higher standard there, and should only start threads if they have something more useful to say than "it's cool" or "it's new" if it's something they could or do stock (whereas the rest of us don't have that kind of restriction and can just gush about neat stuff).

 

And the last bit, is it reasonable for a supplier to post in a thread other than on New Releases saying "I have these/I have one of these"?  That's hard to answer.  It's really easy for that to turn into simple advertising.  And if we restrict it to "unusual" items, how would we define that?  I can see plenty of cases where it's not simply reasonable, but very useful for a supplier to make such posts.  I can also see it becoming a nuisance if every store with a dusty Kato N700 four-car base set or similar pops up with posts about them. Perhaps the answer is two-fold: to restrict such announcements outside the Classifieds to self-identified "suppliers", and to require such to self-censor themselves to "reasonable" postings on other fora than the Suppliers and New Releases ones. And suppliers can have their priviledged status to make "advertising" of that sort revoked if they don't do so.

 

I think one thing that would be useful would be to have a separate type of account for "suppliers" (like BT trains).  Individuals like Bob could still have ordinary personal accounts, but a supplier posting that was clearly marked (the way an Administrator/Moderator posting is) would help make their role more clear, and allow posting restrictions to be enforced if that became an issue. And the suppliers could be required to make a minimum annual donation for their priviledged access (not outrageous, maybe US$20 or so; cheap for targeted advertising, but cheap because it's limited). There may be legal issues that preclude that (is the forum a business or a registered non-profit?) so it could be more trouble than it's worth.

 

Here's one last question: how would this apply to an individual working on something that will eventually become a product (e.g., Don's DCC stuff or Inobu's tunnel portal).  I think those are individual posts, reasonable on the appropriate forum (e.g. DCC and Electrical for Don, Scenery for Inobu) until they have a product, at which point they need to open a supplier account and start a thread in the Suppliers forum, with a post on the original thread pointing to the new one.

 

Finally, if the admins do decide on a general policy (rather than handling Bob as a special case) that policy should be written down, perhaps as a Supplier's FAQ, so would-be suppliers have some guidance on what's acceptable and what rules they need to follow.

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Guest Closed Account 1

Bob:

 

Just create a simple signature for BT trains. Then when Bob posts, your business link follows you.

 

This adds to your link popularity value. I'll stop there and wont expand on search engine algorithms.

 

Many train shops are on nsalenet and trainboard. You have a niche market that you can only touch through the net. Kato helps you satisfy the parts need by blanketing American, European and Japanese demands. Parts are very profitable.

 

I'm stll waiting for BT train 20 foot containers. 20's are better because you'll have a have a higher rate of cerebral imprintIng seeIng a brand name multiple times than just one.

post-436-13569930100091_thumb.jpg

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Jeff, Ken, whooo.... that's a lot of reading.

 

Historically, the leadership team (admin and mods) has always operated with the policy of "membership self-policing" of posts, minus spam and such, with as few rules as possible in order to maintain the K.I.S.S. philosophy.

 

For the moment, the team is assessing the feedback from the thread and discussing the potential next step to ensure the community maintains true to its founding principles.

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well its not a simple thing and in the end i think its important to think through carefully and thoughtfully as if let to fester it could damage the forum. its good there is so far very calm discussion on this as the membership is the soul of the forum that needs to be heard in the matter as well. w/o the membership there is no forum.

 

cheers

 

jeff

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Just create a simple signature for BT trains. Then when Bob posts, your business link follows you.

 

This adds to your link popularity value. I'll stop there and wont expand on search engine algorithms.

 

is this fair, though, to use the forum to boost a dealers google search listings with every post? there is big value in boosting your google rankings. if done properly the forum is the perfect content to do this sort of search engine rank boosting.

 

jeff

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I'm glad KenS mentioned my name as I know it is an issue that I must address soon. I have a few items that may be of interest to some and I understand that upon the first transaction I would and should be considered a vendor. At that point I must change how I interact in the forum. There is a distinct difference between selling extra items in the classified section and selling products online.  

 

As the Admins are gracious enough to provide us with an "open" forum I do not want to infringe or take it for granted so I'm preparing myself for a transition as a courtesy to the admins and members.

 

One factor that I know I will be addressing is the -225 in the Donation counter. I cannot continue to use the forum without making a contribution "it has been a while for me". In my opinion some kind of contribution should be made to the forum by person or business who benefits from its existence.

 

So, Bob I could soon be in the same category as you and I know that I must change my posting etiquette. When you are a vendor there is a fine line that's gray in color making it hard to differentiate comments, reply's and spam.

 

The forum is friendly enough where we don't have to post here and there in my opinion. My projects are projects and when they are done they can be found in the classified, if they are ready. That way I don't infringe on anyone.

 

Vendors have two choices "Seen and not heard" or "Heard and not seen" but we cant have both.    

 

Inobu  

 

 

I guess I'll be moving my things to Platform 3.........lol

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Inobu also just reminded me of something, there is a difference between a vendor who creates their own products and dealer who are resellers lots of others stuff. most of the vendors i think we will run across here are really niche markets with little or no competition -- they usually doing something thats pretty much missing. their impact on the forum will be much more limited in scope as they will probably be very niche areas and not come up constantly like a dealer's situation would. more over the niche vendors would also be very specific questions that would usually be answered with only x does that sort of thing. a good dealer on the other hand could be connected to most all of the product threads or other model threads where parts or items are needed.

 

jeff

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CaptOblivious

Just to re-iterate, that the mods and admin are taking all of this in, and considering it very seriously!

 

In general, we want to be welcoming to commercial entities which are of genuine interest to the members here, in part because it can be so very difficult, especially for the new folks, to identify how to purchase many of these items. I think that Bob's presence here is, for example, generally welcome.

 

I'm warming to the idea of requiring commercial entities to register accounts with their business name, and to restrict commercial postings a) from those accounts) and b) to a specific part of the forum. Beyond that, I don't personally care how the particular topics are structured, although I know some of the mods do have preferences.

 

That said, Inobu's case is an interesting one that I'd like to accomodate, namely, as someone who's considering, but has not yet made the leap into being a commercial entity, and we're taking that kind of case into account as we discuss whether and what the policy should be.

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Ken's and Jeff's messages summarized nicely my own position and thinking. There is no need for me to repeat their interventions. :)

 

As for now on, the guidelines are pretty clear and are almost solely rooted in respect, to the forum and to the other forum members. Suppliers/dealers activity is limited to their dedicated threads (the "BT Trains - Seattle" for BT Trains -  that I might rename to "BT Trains - What's new by me" but I think the geographical reference is important) and to a respectful commercial activity outside of that realm. The idea is not to ban all commercial activity but to direct it and avoid a forum wide spamming by one or two members. I count on everyone's wiseness to know what are the limits.

 

Other than that, I think the forum is small enough to advert the need for a stronger policy. But, if we feel that one's attitude/posting is inadequate or damaging to the overall (friendly and good naturred) atmosphere of the forum or if we receive complaints from our members, we will of course intervene and adjust our policy on this. Like always. ;)

 

But as you can see, things are still in discussion on our side and we might announce some further changes/adaptations in the future, specially regarding special accounts for businesses.

 

Like noted by Jeff, Inobu's and Don's cases are a bit different and might need a different approach since they are not suppliers but vendors. But I think the same general rules should apply to them and I think that a consolidated thread about their products (maybe in the "New products" section) could be enough and will also give them a better visibility than if they create multitudes of threads. It makes the information more readily available for every member if those are centralized in one know place instead than all other the forum. Still spit-balling, we will see what will be the outcome.

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Bob,

 

To me, the key issue here is the definition of on topic.  I believe it should be Forum and Thread related.  Here's a couple of examples of what I think might be acceptable and unacceptable:

 

1. Platform 4 - DCC & Electrical

    The_Ghan asks, "I've fitted my FL12 cab decoders but the lights won't come on.  What am I doing wrong?"

    BT Trains replies, "Did you hit F0 to turn on the lights?" Acceptable

    BT Trains replies, "If you need more FL12 decoders we have them in stock."  Unacceptable, such a comment should be restricted to the "Tomix" thread of Platform 2 - N Gauge, or Platform 3 - Suppliers.

 

2. Platform 5 - Personal Projects

    The_Ghan says, "Here's some photos of my new Dr Yellow running on my layout!"

    BT Trains replies, "Looks sweet.  How does it run across the Tomix double crossing?" Acceptable

    BT Trains replies, "We have 4 Dr Yellows coming in our next shipment if anyone is looking for one!"  Unacceptable, such a comment should be restricted to the "Tomix" thread of Platform 2 - N Gauge, or Platform 3 - Suppliers.

 

In short, if you're drumming up business, which I don't mind, it should be done in the right place, generally Platform 2 - N Gauge, or Platform 3 - Suppliers.  If you're giving advice, which is also welcome, it should obviously go in the topic to which it applies.

 

I certainly enjoy having you around Bob, so please don't take my email the wrong way.  I only wish someone in Oz was able to be competitive with HS.

 

Cheers

 

The_Ghan

  • Like 1
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i don't mind having a store thread posting sales or news of the store in the suppliers section. Also definately fine to contribute as another fellow modeller in any other forum.

 

Even fine and suggested that you have a quick link in your sig to the store.

 

But yeah i can see how posting in a topic about say a new release/preorder item and saying we have it here/ will be getting it <insert link> can be annoying to some or the creator as it could be interrupting the topic.

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Hobby Dreamer

Bob, I appreciate that you asked...

 

I agree with most of the above and also appreciate that the mods are looking at this.

 

I worry a bit about new members (new to Japanese products), especially if there are younger lurkers who view your threads/responses and may see that you have an item and not probe enough to learn about other vendors, or how to buy from Japan. To my knowledge, you don't offer members here any special savings so you get free ad space. Its win-win for you..

 

But that can be exploitation.

 

Rick

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I think the Ghan has the most practical reply. I can offer my expertise where I have some, you may recall the hemopoetic and grave related translations, and to keep my sale announcements in my own area.

 

I would only ask then that my "own area" be clarified as Platform 3 a and b depending on the nature of the announcement.

 

3a) I have 30 of the NEW Kato Wye switches coming in the mid February box. For anyone who is interested in this new product please contact....

 

3b) BT Trains has a shipment that will arrive in Seattle around Valentines Day. In order to do this the orders that go in the box must be in my hands by the 19th at 6PM Pacific Time.

 

The first one announces the presence of a product hirtherto unavailable or very recently new to the hobby becoming available at BT Trains. We would only be able to use this once per "product". All products qualify. "The DD551s that Tomix has shipped for the last 5 years are now available in purple!" is a new, if disturbing, product announcement.

 

The second alerts board members to a way in which they can save money and or time if they are aware of somethign BT Trains is doing. Sales announcements, shipping schedules, etc, etc, go here. Ideally if there was a sub platform for each vendor so that board members could decide which vendors they wished to read about that would be wonderful, but I do not know if the software is up to it.

 

BT Trains does "pay" for its presence here on the board through the donation system, the same as others who feel this is an important resource for modelers in Japanese trains. We do not spend all of our money here nor all of our time, but we do feel this is "home". When I was starting out last year, JNS Forum members gave me LOTS of advice and assistance. BT Trains has not forgotten that and tries to post sales and product availibiity here first. We have also offered several discounts ONLY to JNS Forum members. I would be happy to have this formalize with a separate membership level, but I fear that it makes it much harder for people who are where I was a year ago. Back then contributing what I do now would have been a huge load, today it is not. So now you get into member, startup business, corporate business, where do you draw the lines, who is going to show you what to justify their membership level, what are you going to offer in return and the rest of what I had percieved as something the moderators did NOT want to get into.

 

If the moderators would like my input on membership levels for business members I would be happy to do that here or in private, just let me know.

 

Regardless of how this conversation ends, my intent is to start to follow "Ghan's law" immediately. I will only post helpfully in all areas, new items in 3a and sales/etc. in 3b. Should you see me in a percieved error I would appreciate a nudge, I will make a mistake once in a while.

 

Bob

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Tututu tutututu...

 

Just to say, the "New product" forum is since our last evolution is solely reserved to discuss new releases by Kato, Tomix and Co. The "Supplier" forum is meant to absorb all discussions about HS, BT Trains...

 

In my opinion, 3a and 3b should happen in your "BT Train" thread. This thread being for you a drum-roll.

 

Having a dedicated forum for every independent Supplier is pushing things a bit too far and, I think, is not needed. One centralized thread is enough since you are here more to advertise your own new products and recent shipments than to hold inventory. People can use your website for that.

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Thanks Bob,

 

Glad my post was appreciated.  BT is a supplier and should probably stick to Platform 3 - Suppliers for all retail related announcements, even for your first example which relates to the supply of a specific product.  The New Release and Product Announcements section is really for manufacturer info. 

 

I'm not Admin or Mod, so my opinion may not count, but I think restricting BT to a single thread under Suppliers would be a little harsh.  It's not as if we're flooded with messages from retailers.  If we were, and other retailers such as ModelTrainStuff, Hiawatha, MB Klein, even some of the UK and Japanese retailer got involved here I would be supporting a single thread policy.

 

Perhaps its a grey area.  If I'm reading about the imminent release of the Tomix (or MA) 300 series shinkansen I don't have a problem with a one-liner saying that BT has 6 on order.  But I would have a problem if BT did this every other day or repeated the message.  I don't remember any specific occasion where Bob's messages have really annoyed me.  I think he has been pretty level headed here since he started up a year or so ago.  I think he's smart enough to know that if he started behaving like a parrot we would all treat him like a Galah ...  :grin

 

Cheers

 

The_Ghan

 

Conflict of Interest Statement:  I'm in Australia.  BT Trains is in the US (somewhere).  I've never purchased from BT, and probably never will. I've never met Bob, and probably never will. I have no interest in BT other than their presence here.  I do purchase most of my DCC stuff from ModelTrainStuff and Hiawatha Hobbies.

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As a Moderator being in charge of cleaning behind all of you ( :grin ), the "one thread" guideline is made to keep things tidy. Discussions about HS and Kato (for exemple) have been consolidated into one because, the way a forum works, after a while those kinds of discussions about announcing a new product or a new shipment, have no value. It doesn't make sense, and it's my opinion, to have thousands of clearly outdated subjects around.

 

That said, was left out of those discussions important subjects: like the BT Train Email crash.

 

Speaking of the grey area, I also don't personally have any problem with a random one-liner in the corresponding thread of the "new product" forum from BT Trains stating they have a small amount of the cool new hot Shinkansen coming in. But these have to be in a reasonable amount.

 

Except very precise circumstances, it's also not welcome to fish directly for one customer in private or public.

 

Our active dealer have to keep in mind that his messages don't have so much added interest for most of our members. We are an international forum and me, like Ghan and many others that don't reside in North America will never order from a shop located there to get their hands on items we can import from Japan or maybe find in a retailer nearer us.

 

Edit: I hope this closes the discussion, I want to go back to our usual relax state of mind and enjoy our general laissez-faire policies and your company. :grin

  • Like 2
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Ghan just made me think of something here. his comment that having bttrains post everywhere about their wares was ok since we only really have one retailer and thus not a nuisance, if we had more then it might be so we would stop it.

 

so this is the things about having some rules/limits in place even when there may only be one dealer on the forum. is it fair to the other retailers as only bttrains is getting exclusive use of the forum now. this is because if they did come in then we probably would shut down dealers posting everywhere with commercial posts as it would be too much for too many folks.

 

so the rule thinking of more than one needs to be enforced even if its only one is currently present to be fair all in the long run.

 

bob, also you are not the only one helping pay for the forum. donations come from many of us to utilize the service. one of the reasons i donate each year to jns is to keep it free of advertising and support it being a basically hobbyist only forum. in addition there is also a much larger hidden cost to the forum that many of us give very freely and thats our time, knowledge and experience. Again i am happy to do this to help the hobby along the best i can and learn more myself. but its a big investment on my part to the forum. i do this for the other hobbists and not for businesses. I am happy when well run little businesses are successful in the hobby as we have to have them to have the hobby, but my investment here is not focused on those businesses. i am happy to help them where i can and i have evangelized bttrains to many folks at shows and such when asked where to get japanese trains.

 

the more i have thought about having dealer membership donations to buy in and get more access to posting elsewhere on the site, the more i dont like that idea from the thoughts expressed above. i like the forum being hobbyists and very minimal direct commercial input and i just see the gray areas remaining too gray and falling apart easily if other dealers come in. in not a huge rule fan, but with more variables you end up having to do them and keep to them or things tend to descend quickly...

 

jeff

  • Like 1
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