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keitaro

monorail

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keitaro

ok after some extensive 3 week training i am now a monrail driver. hahah

 

so as noted in the monorail thread i am making a powered version of this.

 

My method will be to run track on the out side and have the monorail run on this as per normal nscale use.

 

It could be used for dcc as well and have block detection which is one reason why i chose this path.

 

Also as it's the easiest way to do it.

 

here is a quick vid of thomas running on track currently i am waiting on the screws i am going to use as mounts for the track. I will then solder to the screw and the piece will be able to connect together like an nscale track piece.

 

 

 

p.s. i have 5 pieces done atm and it runs across fine. also just got motors in so i will be making 1 monorail car to test this all good.

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The_Ghan

Keitaro,

 

Great start.  I can't wait to see a loop of this running - even if its just with Thomas.

 

Cheers

 

The_Ghan .... from a beach somewhere far, far, away!

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keitaro

quick update on this as i am juggling 4 projects atm. I have completed 4 secure track pieces and soldered i'm going to make the middle car and run it soon will post video when i do.

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keitaro

need opinions.

 

So soldering the track to screws is not working well as the solder has a weaker hold than super glue.

 

SO.....

 

I have 2 choices from here find a glue that has a strong long life hold to put to the screws to hols the track in place

 

Or

 

have the normal screws as are already, then to that have another 3 screws that are pre solders fiercely to the track that will work more as pins into the plastic track then resting and glued to the other screws for extra hold and to keep the track the correct width.

 

 

 

As it stands i have 2 corners and 4 straights when connecting them to gether with the joiners the solder breaks easily and if i solder them heavily the screw heats and melts the plastic.

 

In only 4 seconds of touching the screw gets hot enough to start sinking and warping the plastic track therefore i cannot solder the screws normally and the pre soldered screws will hopefully hold track firmly then the other screws will ensure the track is secure and providing the 9mm gap evenly accross each piece.

 

 

 

Let me know what you think or suggestions.

 

 

also anyone know a good glue to bond metal to metal with a clear dry?

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inobu

The solder should be stronger than super glue. Most likely you have one of two issues.

 

1. Cold solder joints.

2. The alloys in the screws are not compatible with the solder.

 

I'll try to explain the process and the you can address either issue.

 

Here is the key to understanding soldering. The solder liquifies and adheres to the metal alloy. Kinda like the pores in the metal open up when heated. Then the solder drips into the pores, when the metal cools the solder locks the too pieces together.

 

The idea behind a good solder

 

First you must heat the screws with the iron then add the solder. It should be that the screw melts the solder not the iron. This initiates the "wetting" process which get the solder to adhere to the metal.

 

Test this process out to see what I mean. Take a penny and heat it up. Then touch the solder to the penny near the iron. You will see the solder liquify "wetting" and it will be smooth and shiny. This is a good clean solder. Use flux to clean/carry/flow the solder.  

 

Your 1st Problem

 

As you stated the heat transfer from the screw is melting the plastic. So you need to reduce the heating time. You can do this by tinning the screws. Tinning is like pre-soldering the screws but is a really thin coat. It is thinner than the point on the right.

 

[smg id=813]

 

As you have done apply the solder on the screws before hand but make sure it is a good thin smooth tin. This will provide a coat of solder on the screw reducing the time heating time. When the screw is mounted you should only have to touch the solder as it takes no time to melt to its self. Now you will be welding. The solder to solder melting is actually welding.

 

Your 2nd Problem

 

The type of screws that you are using may not be easily soldered. They could have a coating that is preventing the solder from adhering to the screw. File the screw to get to the bear metal and test it out or get screws with better soldering qualities. Not sure which ones I know that copper is best but not easily found.

 

Also the type and size of solder makes a difference.

 

 

Remember the key is getting the metal hot enough to make the solder flow into its pores so to speak.

 

Hope it helps

 

Inobu

 

One more note I forgot.The tip size. The tip size dictates the amount of heat transfer. A tiny tip will take more time to heat up a big screw head. This causes heat soak into the plastic. So you want to tin with a big iron tip and perform the solder "weld" with a small tip.

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KenS

When I was soldering feeders to code 80 HO track, I used a pair of curve nose hemostats, clamped to the rail on either side of where I was soldering, as heat sinks to prevent the plastic ties from melting (and they were also useful for holding the wire against the track while soldering it, although that does'nt help with screws).

 

A weak joint does sound like a cold solder joint, but it could also be due to dirt. So the other thing to do aside from getting both elements hot is be sure the track is clean.  I've seen track that was lightly oiled, and track that has been chemicially "blackened", or just heavily corroded, would also be problematic. A bit of sandpaper and some alcohol on a swab would both be useful if you suspect it isn't clean. The same could apply to the screw, too.

 

Even if the metal is clean, you could use some liquid rosin on the point where you're going to solder to get the cleanest joint (removing oxide, etc), although I never needed to do that.  Wash if off afterwards if you can.

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keitaro

the screws are 5mm in length and tiny as can be it's insanely hard to hold them to the track and solder too.

 

I have soldered 2 track pieces with  3 screws each side and other screws not soldered but still screwed in to get extra hold and keep the 9mm gap on each side as good as possible. seems ok for the 2 but i swear to god it took me 15 mins per screw lol due to the fact it's hard to hold the track and screw steady and told the iron on and solder at same time.

 

i need 4 arms ......

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CaptOblivious

The others have offered sound advice on soldering.

 

Me, personally? I'd go for the glue option at this point to avoid destroying more track. But that's just me. If super glue doesn't work, I'd consider using 2-part epoxy putty, as it is easy to work with, and bonds to both plastic and metal like crazy. It can also be used to sculpt structural elements. Do make sure your screws are clean! A soak in iso alcohol, and then touching only with clean tweezers should do the trick. Clean the other bits too! (Although only clean the plastic with dish soap.)

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keitaro

thanks all i'm looking into this but have placed the project on hold for now.

 

baby due in 10 weeks and i need to get this train set done before my spare time at night diminishes to -2 hrs.

 

I am however investigating possibility 3 and that adding a rubber to the motor set and having side pickups.

 

this seems hard to find something that will fit or can be modified onto a tgw/world craft motor

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keitaro

ok so i have been looking for motor's suitable for mounting into the monorail to run a small rubber wheel.

 

the only thing i could find suitable was somethign like these SBL02-06H1PG02-337  http://www.namiki.net/product/dcmotor/brushless.html

 

basicly i was thinking of attaching to the wall and the 5 mm in length would fit from the wall to the middle of the track perfectly with a small rubber wheel.

 

only issue is these seem likely to be big bul orders and likely expensive.

 

It's a shame that this is too big as these would run perectly if they were micro size  http://www.hvwtech.com/products_view.asp?ProductID=65

 

anyone got any suggestions on tiny motors.

 

I was going to have a motor in each car if i do this to keep it smooth.

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Martijn Meerts

You could have a look at the mechanism used in Faller Car System cars/busses, pretty sure those can be adjusted to drive a single rubber wheel instead of 2.

 

I wouldn't go for a too small motor, because they won't be able to pull the whole train, unless, as you said, you put a motor in each car. Getting them to match at all times might be problematic, and it'd be expensive to convert to DCC =)

 

I got my monorail kits in recently, and I also have a Faller Car System base set, but I won't have time to look at them for a while.

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cteno4

keitaro,

 

have you looked at the mechanism that the disney monorail guy did. it looks to be the cleanest design to make this work. gearing also to get the most torque out of a smaller motor.

 

http://monorail.suzieandbob.com/n.html

 

i corresponded with the chap some when the greenmax monorail was first announced. he was interested in it and was willing to talk to anyone who might want custom mechanisms made for them. they aint going to be cheap, but it looks like he does very nice work.

 

i also saw a picture of a monorail mechanism someone had kitbashed in japan and for the non powered cars they used a set of rail wheels with the wheels flipped so the flanges were on the outside and the wheels ran along the top edge of the monorail girder. seemed like an elegant solution for a very free wheeling ride. would have to make your own shorter axles and then a simple skinny truck to pop them in, but then the trucks could just be mounted then to the inside roof of the car (with the appropriate spacer block to set the car tot he right height).

 

making mechanisms like these takes some machining skills and equipment though. i finally tabled the project as i realized that while it was doable and probably w/in my skills and such, it would take wayy too much of my modeling time to do and just not be worth it to me personally that much at this point in time.

 

cheers

 

jeff

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keitaro

yeah i checked that his souloution will not fit inside.

 

I currently have formulated another soloutionand have ordered 2 motors for this just trying to find 4mm diametre rubber wheels with a shaft a 1mm

 

or i will use the cogs for them and apply rubbers my self.

 

i also made a tgw soloution where i placed motor above the fake wheels included in set drilled a hold and ran the shaft down to spin the wheels. worked a bit but was way too much work to make something to hold it in tight.

 

So far I have 4 ways to do this but all require massive amounts of dedicated time.

my next plan could be much simpler to do and could run via built in pack of batteries or via side pickup.

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cteno4

hugh, it looked like the disney car is smaller than the type 1000. maybe a tad wider. the mech looks to only be about 16mm wide and about the same tall. could be shorter if he had a larger car to put the battery and rc in or lowered it in the middle of a longer chassis.

 

what is the basic width and height you have to play with inside the car down to the top of the rail?

 

yeah i think trying to use the side rollers for power with be an issue keeping the proper pressure, especially in/out of curves where the is going to be some sideways binding. you could try to use large, squishier wheels to keep some pressure, but like you say it would be really tricky to keep the perfect pressure for traction and some give for curves.

 

the rubber roller on the top of the girder looked to be the simplest solution. i liked his use of ho slot car wheels and gears.

 

the use of rail wheels flipped around seem so simple and free wheeling for non powered cars. gives you nice footing and can turn some as well as good side to side control. good use for those old pizza cutter wheels!

 

how free rolling are the units on the girders with the provided plastic guide wheels? curious to see if all the styrene on styrene will be loose enough or not on the wheels and axles to roll freely. you could siliconize them to avoid them getting mucky with an oil.

 

it is a really fiddly project!

 

best of luck

 

jeff

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keitaro

13mm height and 12 mm width for the 1000 tokyo monorail. it's a touch more but with the plastic windows on each side taken into account it's that much.

 

the side roller would be okay if you had a roller on each side and in the front middle and rear car.

 

If the monorail was turning a right curve the right wheel would have the grip and the other cars would push it along.

 

I was hoping for a really tight fit for the wheels so it would have great hold on straights and even curves would be okay with the softer squishy wheels.

 

the beauty about the monorail is you need not be worried about the motors being in sync just make sure they are getting same voltage to be similar speeds.

 

as they wont have derailing occur due to the side of the monorail not allowing this like you would get on a rail.

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Martijn Meerts

Of course, the next step after having the motor figured out, is how to do a turnout/switch  :grin

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keitaro

Of course, the next step after having the motor figured out, is how to do a turnout/switch  :grin

 

in 3 centuries from now.

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CaptOblivious

Of course, the next step after having the motor figured out, is how to do a turnout/switch  :grin

 

in 3 centuries from now.

 

Bah! Monorail turnouts are easy. Take two pieces of track, say a straight and a curve, and mount them to a servo so that at one extreme, the straight is in alignment with the point and the main line, and at the other extreme, the curve is in alignment with the point and the diverging line. Can't seem to find a video, but this is how the Disney World monorail does it.

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Martijn Meerts

A lot of monorails do it that way... should be fairly doable, but alignment needs to be pretty spot on ;)

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keitaro

A lot of monorails do it that way... should be fairly doable, but alignment needs to be pretty spot on ;)

 

 

thats single track to double though right?

 

the tokyo monorail has double track so it's a touch different haing the 2 tracks.

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Martijn Meerts

Single to double is the easiest to do, but the same technique could be used for double track as well, depending on spacing. Otherwise a rotary switch is an option.

 

http://www.monorails.org/tmspages/switch.html shows some examples with crude animations of monorail switches..

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keitaro

so this project as been brought back to life possibly only for a few days then to never be heard of again for another year .......  :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

 

however this time i have come up with a time consuming idea but will allow for copius amounts of peco flex track to be clipped on and off easily.

 

I'm currently in "doing phase" which requires getting effort to do so Currently half way done on the first track section. Will try 3 pieces of already ruined track that was used for 2 different test ways of powering the vehicle.

 

Again i'm still aiming for a dcc controllable track.

 

Pics to come soon or maybe never we shall see if time is on my side.....

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keitaro

just an update i have done some of the second piece no pics yet but i'm hoping to do something sunday night "hope"

 

I want 3 or 4 pieces then i'll snap a pic/vid of an unpainted monorail shell runiing on the track "provided it runs"  :laugh:

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cteno4

Keitaro,

 

very cool, cant wait to see the project! More to knoodle on this, its always gnawing at the back of my mind that this would be such a cool thing to have running and how best to make that happen! I can see it being fiddly enough that its probably not going to be a manufactured thing for a while, but eventually i think it will, just a niche market.

 

good luck getting the time and something working!

 

jeff

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MichaelP

Purchased my Tokyo Monorail Fujima kits (4 + 2 additional cars)  last year (July/August 2012).  I've been reading all of the road or shall I say "rail" blocks along the way.  I totally can relate to keitaro's struggle.  For the side rail wheels I just used the same small plastic ones from the monorail kit and 1/2 inch long small brass nails that have a thin shaft diameter with FLAT nail heads- slightly wide enough but no wider than the diameter of small side wheels.  I'm using thin brass nails with flat nail heads from various picture framing kits to prevent the bottom side wheels (the ones below the side rail girders) from falling off, yet have the ability to spin freely against the rail. To make a one side wheel assembly (totaling four assemblies - two for each side of car) I used one of the small wheels above and another below the monorail side girder.  I first insert the thin brass nail through the small wheel, then through a measured, leveled and pre-cut thin hollow  plastic white straw-tube from a box of "Q-tips" ear swabs. This cut plastic tube will now separate a small space between the rail girder as the next wheel is inserted through the nail shaft followed by a shorter length cut hollow plastic "Q-tip" tube with the pointed brass nail tip protruding out the other end of the plastic tube and inserted through the bottom monorail car floor with a drop of super glue gel.  Once dried you can clip most of the nail tip protruding out of the floor with a metal clipper. 

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