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[China] At least 11 killed in HSR accident.

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westfalen

(apparently, only 10 days to become a train driver)!!!??? Even though he'd been driving normal trains for 20 years stepping up to a 350kmh high speed train you've never seen before after only ten days reading a training manual in a language you don't understand is crazy. If I was the German trainer I'd have walked out saying "You guys are on your own".

 

As some nameless American railroader once said, "What a way to run a railroad".

 

I'm sure they'll find a scapegoat to take the blame, but in China a scapegoat loses more than his job.

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The_Ghan

...

In any event, I recommend reading this. It doesn't answer the question of what caused the accident, but it sheds some light on the government response:

http://cmp.hku.hk/2011/07/25/14036/

 

OMG!!!  The arrogance sickens me.  They are, however, correct on one thing: you can't mention China's HSR and Japan's Shinkansen in the same breath!!!

 

God help all who choose to ride that rollercoaster!

 

Cheers

 

The_Ghan

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clem24

 

I'm sure they'll find a scapegoat to take the blame, but in China a scapegoat loses more than his job.

 

I thought they already found 3 scapegoats that have lots their job...

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Untenshu_TMB

CRH2 Presentation

CRH2 Accident

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-Wov4yWuCk

Japanese Shinkansen 0 accidents 1 kill (suicide)

Chinese Hi Speed 3 accidents indeterminate kills, Japanese Machine (Kawasaki Rail Factory) but Chinese drivers, chinese controles, chinese protocols of security.

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Guest ___

Notice the video from Reuters, no external light source, or commentary, done on the DL, lucky to get that out.

 

I'm amazed there has only been one suicide by Shinkansen in all the years of service in Japan.

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westfalen

 

I'm sure they'll find a scapegoat to take the blame, but in China a scapegoat loses more than his job.

 

I thought they already found 3 scapegoats that have lots their job...

But they are management, railways being railways some poor guy further down the food chain has to be found and sacrificed.

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westfalen

Notice the video from Reuters, no external light source, or commentary, done on the DL, lucky to get that out.

 

I'm amazed there has only been one suicide by Shinkansen in all the years of service in Japan.

I believe there have been several suicides by Shinkansen but to be fair you can't blame them on JR or the Shinkansen technology.

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Kabutoni

In any event, I recommend reading this. It doesn't answer the question of what caused the accident, but it sheds some light on the government response:

http://cmp.hku.hk/2011/07/25/14036/

 

I really love the second in article photograph of the driver pointing to a signal of some sorts, whereas a dedicated high speed line shouldn't have any lineside light signals at all... He should be pointing at his dashboard instead of the window where there's nothing to see other than a blur of the world.

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Mudkip Orange

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The_Ghan

The_Ghan is disgusted !!!

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Krackel Hopper

A nice read and for sure a change from the usual point of view: http://pedestrianobservations.wordpress.com/2011/07/27/racism-and-accidents/

 

It puts you (I mean, you, me, everybody) back in place.

 

I can hardly agree with this article.

 

They’ll of course not stop thinking that Asians are an undifferentiated mass of insects with no thought or creativity

 

For starters, the overall message of this article is that westerners are racists.

 

My feelings and opinions on the China train crash are just that, on the crash.. not on the Chinese people or culture.  I do have some serious questions and concerns regarding the way the government is handling the situation.. but I would have those same questions and concerns had this accident happened anywhere in the world.

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gmat

Some news on the crash from Japanese dailies.

 

From the DY:

Train crash could slow business / China's rail sector has been a market for Japanese industrial firms

http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/dy/business/T110727004780.htm

 

China digs up wrecked train it buried

http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/dy/world/T110726005262.htm

 

From MDN:

 

Chinese bullet train likely traveling at regular speed at time of collision

http://mdn.mainichi.jp/mdnnews/international/news/20110727p2a00m0na021000c.html

 

From AEN:

 

Bereaved families criticize Beijing's 'incentive money'

http://www.asahi.com/english/TKY201107270422.html

 

Victims' relatives lash out at Beijing over train accident

http://www.asahi.com/english/TKY201107270421.html

 

Nothing found today in the Japan Times and Japan Today sites. Interesting.

 

Best wishes,

Grant

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angusmclean

More mud to the swirling waters.  24hrs ago, I heard the newsreader on CCTV9 (Chinese news with an english language overlay) state that it appears that the two trains involved had somehow become transposed - in other words, the rear train was supposed to have been in lead of the two trains!!

 

Angus

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disturbman
For starters, the overall message of this article is that westerners are racists.

 

My feelings and opinions on the China train crash are just that, on the crash.. not on the Chinese people or culture.  I do have some serious questions and concerns regarding the way the government is handling the situation.. but I would have those same questions and concerns had this accident happened anywhere in the world.

 

If I agree that accusing everyone of racism is a bit harsh, I can see here and there that the reactions about that crash are a tad biased and tinted with some anti-Chinese sentiment. For sure, the same accident anywhere in the Western Hemisphere wouldn't have triggered some of the comments and reports I've read. And China's government might not have helped with its obvious and literal cover up operation.

 

But the point of the article is not actually about racism but relativism. I particularly like the point made by the author about China's railway safety record being pretty high, on par with the rest of the (Western) World if not higher than the US in general. This is the driving home point that should put us back in our place.

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The_Ghan

I think some people are confusing being critical with being racist.  It is wise to be critical of the Chinese HSR crash.  When an airliner crashes the whole world takes note and a detailed investigation follows.  This leads to changes in training, design, manufacture, etc. that make our skies safer.  The same should be true about this incident.  General western media reports appear to be taking a similar tone to much of the Chinese media: stop the cover up and take responsibility.

 

Also, were we all not equally critical of Fukushima, Chernobal, Challenger Shuttle, Afghanistan, Iraq, Victorian bushfires ... I can go on all day, but when a Canadian firefighter looks me in the eye and says authorities handled the bushfires poorly I can only nod in agreement, and I sure don't think he's being racist.

 

Cheers

 

The_Ghan

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disturbman

And I have the impression that this post will only issue a sterile discussion about his use of the term "racism" where as he is raising some valid points.

 

Point n°1: The treatment of this information will not have been the same if it had occurred in the West. There is a definite "this is China, what could you expect?" flavor to what I've been reading all around. So, if I won't blame it on racism (which is going way to far in my head) there is for sure a bias in the way the information is treated... But hey, I think everybody have been waiting unconsciously for a proof that China is a failure or is failing. Which in itself is quite normal since the China is in general boasting about its recent achievement and threatening to change the whole order of things that we have known for over half a century.

 

Here, I would like to the raise the fact that I don't endorse the apparent cover up. But this is in my opinion, another problem that is not at stake here.

 

Point n°2: That the actual safety record of Chinese railway operation is pretty high. Which moot the whole "this is China, it's cheap and dangerous, they don't care" rhetoric I've seen everywhere.

 

For sure, the whole Chinese HSR have been plagued with problems recently but it's not a reason to declare a whole nation at fault because of it's presumed policy or social traits. The future reaction of the central government about the recent accidents (subway escalator collapse in Beijing or the HSR crash) will indeed tell us how they really take those issues (mainly safety, corruption and faulty construction).

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linkey

Looking at three different Railway accidents

1. Kerang Rail Disaster (Victoria Australia)

2. Hokkaido Super Azura incident (Hokkaido Japan)

3 Chinese HSR Accident. (China)

 

I am only using these three as examples and to question the racism statement due to I don't agree with it.

 

1. Kerang Rail Disaster involved with N class (co-co) diesel electric locomotive with 5 rail cars (N set - used for long haul lon distance trains) and a truck. The Truck driver was faced with a driving charge for not stopping at the rail crossing which claimed 9 people died. There has been a total investigation on this and the rail cars was taken to Newport to have an assessment done on the rail cars and where the inital point of force where the truck hit the last two rail cars. Victorian Government cover-up on the issue of not having flashing lights at all crossings cause it would cost too much to install and same goes with boom gates which people still drive through them.

 

2. Hokkaido Super Azura incident (on going) involved the High Speed Diesel Train going to Sapporo where a part of the train broke off and punchured the fuel tank which cause the last car to go up in flames. The JR Hokkaido was to blame with the issue of safety and lack of maintenance due to cost cutting, but the investigation from this event is still happening and it took a while before the cars were taken off the rails and taken to the depot of a further checking of the cars.

 

3. Chinese HSR accident (read from the first post) how CRH 1 and CRH 2 crashing into each other where there might have been issues of signalling or lack of driver experience or to passenger involvment to cause the accident, it not to us to assume of what happened. But what is a question why, take down the affected trains and rolling them around to bury them within two days of the accident (in which they still find dead bodies) with little to no investigation being done. We do have a government cover-up on this accident and the chinese media are also involved in this cover-up. Yes some western media might be biased but the footage that has been shown around, shows that so called trying to stop their technology being taken is a load of [insert bodily waste here].

 

Seeing a body after rolling the first car around and then finally moving it  shows no internal check was done to make sure all of the dead people have been taken out. As a rescuer I have to look at this and find faults and then suggest ideas of what should of been done first before any removal operation can be taken place and even so I would have to wait til I get the authority approval before I can step in.

 

Another rail incident and a local one for me on the same line as the point 1. Diggers Rest Station was the scene of a car driver suicide again affecting the same type locomotive at point 1 and the same type rail cars. The Female train driver was her first drive at night and she was next door to an experienced train driver, the male car driver died on scence after placing his car head on towards the locomotive. The rescue personnel (including me) were stuck there for more than 8 hrs while the inital investigation was taken and the body of the deceased was taken away with all the passengers transportered to busses to head back to Melbourne.The investigation went on for three days and a report of the incident was released to the media within a week after the investigation with recommendations to try and prevent this from happening again.

 

So it points out why getting rid of the evidence before the investigation has fully been done can change the outcome. Cause of affected cars have been moved around and buried and now been unburied it changes  the issue of what really caused the damage and what safety measures were taken in place. Being called racist for saying why are they doing this without doing a full on scale search to make sure it was only 11 people died, which I still believe the number of died is still not being released to the general public (possible cover-up right there). Question why is it that the chinese people (not every single chinese people) thinks that cause it affected their country that the western country is going to jump on them? Same thing can be stated about the Indian Railway and many others. It is how they want peoppe to be played around with and wanting to twist the truth of what has happened in this incident.

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Krackel Hopper

Point #1 - I agree, a portion of the media has portrayed this as "It's China, what did you expect?" but, I think a chunk of this in not, "It's China" but more the "What did you expect?" part.. From news reports of scandals and corruption, followed with stories of poor construction methods/materials and "Become a HSR Driver in 10 days!", I think most people can look at that and say.. "This is an accident waiting to happen."  Not because of where, but because of how..

 

Point #2 - China's overall safety record is a good one.. but my personal concern of safety is about their more recent projects.  They are completing tasks (HSR/highway/subway) at record setting paces and probably completing things so fast that safety inspectors are not given adequate time to inspect (or are being bribed) to hurry up and get these venues open.

 

I don't look at this as a whole nation at fault.  This is a corrupt government trying to flex its muscles to the world.  I am somewhat concerned that if the government keeps up and continues to cut corners and then try and censor social media, the country might be in for another Tiananmen Square..

 

On an unrelated note, my feelings on corrupt governments is not limited to that of China.. I have some serious issues with the United States government and their unchecked and uncontrolled spending habits right now.. which I see as scandals and corruption of a different sort..

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keitaro

i don't think anyone is being racist ...

 

The main attack is at china i.e. the govt if thats what you want to call it.

 

Japan has spent 60 years at making bullet trains what they are today and chinese govt thinks they can emulate that in such a short time span as posted by Krackel Hopper it's the as always chinese govt trying to show off. Then to top it off they are cutting corners to save money and then others being corrupt and keeping money for them selves.

 

Not giving a damn about "their own" peoples lives only making the premier look good because they are "all mighty and powerful" How many people lives are expendable just so some one can try to cling to power??

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The_Ghan

...

The main attack is at china i.e. the govt if thats what you want to call it.

...

 

er ... I think that is being racist.  :confused4:

 

However, linkey's point is that the investigation is being handled poorly, irrespective of location, race and nationality.  I'm in agreement on that point.  It's like the Keystone Cops are handling the affair.  I'm sure every nation has bungled its fair share of accidents and disasters.  I tread lightly here, but I believe linkey will agree that much was learned during the investigation into the Victorian bushfires in which over 170 people died.  If memory serves me correctly, the Victorian Police Commissioner was out to dinner that night and failed to take emergency calls or something along those lines ... it was certainly critically reported throughout the Australian media ... and back on topic, I don't think the Australian media is reporting this HSR incident any differently. :confused4:

 

Political cover ups happen in every country. 

 

Cheers

 

The_Ghan

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gmat

From Japan Today.

 

Chinese lawyers told not to take train crash cases

http://www.japantoday.com/category/world/view/chinese-lawyers-told-not-to-take-train-crash-cases

 

China 'forced papers' to scrap rail crash coverage

http://www.japantoday.com/category/world/view/china-forced-papers-to-scrap-rail-crash-coverage

 

From Japan Times, musings about the Japanese and Chinese HSR.

 

Rail rivalry outcome hinges on speed vs. safety

http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/fd20110731bj.html

 

Best wishes,

Grant

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keitaro

...

The main attack is at china i.e. the govt if thats what you want to call it.

...

 

er ... I think that is being racist.   :confused4:

 

However, linkey's point is that the investigation is being handled poorly, irrespective of location, race and nationality.  I'm in agreement on that point.  It's like the Keystone Cops are handling the affair.  I'm sure every nation has bungled its fair share of accidents and disasters.  I tread lightly here, but I believe linkey will agree that much was learned during the investigation into the Victorian bushfires in which over 170 people died.  If memory serves me correctly, the Victorian Police Commissioner was out to dinner that night and failed to take emergency calls or something along those lines ... it was certainly critically reported throughout the Australian media ... and back on topic, I don't think the Australian media is reporting this HSR incident any differently. :confused4:

 

Political cover ups happen in every country. 

 

Cheers

 

The_Ghan

 

Ghan I think you missed my point. Its not about tan of skin, language, looks etc which is being "racist" It's about a terrible govt who murder and suppress there own people and don't give a damn about there own people dieing from shoddy work.

 

While dodgy stuff gets done in every country i don't think the govt makes witnesses dissapear permanantly etc like china and a few other nations etc.

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The_Ghan

Point taken Keitaro ...  :grin

 

Cheers

 

The_Ghan

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