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Khaul

Kato Standard SX power pack

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Yavianice

Hmpf.

 

Anyway I ordered the additional part and will report back with results when I have them. It was not easy to get them, that's for sure.

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Khaul

I think I have found something interesting on Kato SX and Tomix 1001-CL. The combination of Google translate with my limited knowledge of electronics makes for not much understanding, but I think I have a lead.

 

First of all, this page https://translate.google.com.au/translate?hl=en&sl=ja&u=https://lofthonsen.muragon.com/entry/354.html&prev=search contains something about hooking up the Tomix 1001-CL to an Arduino chip in order to get better low speed performance. It seems that the experiment resulting in buzzing noises: "The storage oscilloscope time axis was changed and the frequency was increased to 1.82 kHz. Throwing is useful, but the motor beat sounds were heard only when the shrill became high. KATO, TOMIX We were convinced that both companies' PWM frequency 20 kHz is intended to be outside the human audible frequency. The dream of autogenerating with Arduino analog PWM output became impossible to realize."

 

The same guy has done an evaluation of the Kato SX pack full of oscilloscope screenshots for @kvp to enjoy: https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=en&prev=search&rurl=translate.google.com.au&sl=ja&sp=nmt4&u=https://lofthonsen.muragon.com/entry/494.html&xid=17259,1500003,15700019,15700124,15700149,15700186,15700190,15700201&usg=ALkJrhiUfr0Hku7o8NyiTMHcR8VK0xlpmAhttps://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=en&prev=search&rurl=translate.google.com.au&sl=ja&sp=nmt4&u=https://lofthonsen.muragon.com/entry/496.html&xid=17259,1500003,15700019,15700124,15700149,15700186,15700190,15700201&usg=ALkJrhi43vzEfGNMAvIBlKFAtn-zVkSr-w and finally https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=en&prev=search&rurl=translate.google.com.au&sl=ja&sp=nmt4&u=https://lofthonsen.muragon.com/entry/497.html&xid=17259,1500003,15700019,15700124,15700149,15700186,15700190,15700201&usg=ALkJrhj3egPgRNLy4zwl6U5QA7jXXe-W0g

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kvp

Essentially, he determined that the 20 kHz range is the ideal PWM frequency to avoid noise and vibration. Tomix and the older Kato hyper dx use that.

 

Also the new Kato SX pack has an extremly noisy PWM output due to using an analog control circuit and non-stabilized power. And for some reason 5 times the PWM frequency.

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Khaul
2 hours ago, kvp said:

Essentially, he determined that the 20 kHz range is the ideal PWM frequency to avoid noise and vibration. Tomix and the older Kato hyper dx use that.

 

Also the new Kato SX pack has an extremly noisy PWM output due to using an analog control circuit and non-stabilized power. And for some reason 5 times the PWM frequency.

 

Besides the slight buzzing with some models, I find the Kato SX to perform better than the Tomix N-1001-CL at low speeds. Did you find a reason for that?

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kvp
2 hours ago, Khaul said:

Besides the slight buzzing with some models, I find the Kato SX to perform better than the Tomix N-1001-CL at low speeds. Did you find a reason for that?

Higher peaks. The Tomix units never go above (or even fully reach) 12V and the waveform is much smoother, the Kato goes way up to 13.2V with small sharp peaks, which is better for slow speed but heats up the motors faster and could cause vibration. The latter is imho just a side effect of the control circuit used in the Kato power pack.

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Yavianice

I received the 22-092 PWM Filter, and I can report the following:

 

On 9/11/2018 at 7:05 PM, kvp said:

This disables the CL functionality and filters out most of the PWM signal into a flat DC voltage.

 

It does not disable CL functionality.

 

Actually I do not notice any difference when operating trains with or without the PWM filter. The only difference is that my THALYS is no longer narcoleptic. Though I will receive some more TGV's soon, and I will test all of them in different combinations to see whether the 22-092 PWM filter has really solved this issue.

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kvp
3 hours ago, Yavianice said:

I received the 22-092 PWM Filter, and I can report the following:

 

 

It does not disable CL functionality.

Interesting. So the headlights and internal lights are the same brightness while the train is stationary as at full speed?

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Yavianice
13 hours ago, kvp said:

Interesting. So the headlights and internal lights are the same brightness while the train is stationary as at full speed?

No, but they are not to begin with either as KATO does not have an initial voltage knob as the Tomix set. Light has three settings depending on power level, off, on, and bright.

 

I have not really notice a big difference in brightness but I will make some comparison pictures later and see where the differences are.

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kvp
34 minutes ago, Yavianice said:

No, but they are not to begin with either as KATO does not have an initial voltage knob as the Tomix set. Light has three settings depending on power level, off, on, and bright.

Not really. The PWM signal could charge the lights at the lowest setting to full brightness. Anything lower than that and it means the PWM signal has been filtered down to an analog voltage level. Nice but then you can use any old analog pack...

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Yavianice
1 hour ago, kvp said:

Not really. The PWM signal could charge the lights at the lowest setting to full brightness. Anything lower than that and it means the PWM signal has been filtered down to an analog voltage level. Nice but then you can use any old analog pack...

I am simply saying what I am observing.

 

- KATO power pack SX has no "beginning voltage" knob like the TOMIX CL pack

- Interior light usually goes in 3 steps using the KATO power pack SX: Off, Light on (bright), Light on (Very bright). It goes in steps and is not gradual.

- KATO power pack SX is super different from KATO power pack S. I even posted a video about it. They cannot be compared.

- Using PWM Filter does not really show much of a difference. Except that my THALYS is no longer narcoleptic.

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kvp
5 hours ago, Yavianice said:

Interior light usually goes in 3 steps using the KATO power pack SX: Off, Light on (bright), Light on (Very bright). 

Without the filter it should (in theory) go: off, very bright, very bright. Could you test this?

 

Actually, it would be interesting to compare the waveform of the lowest speed step with and without the filter on an oscilloscope.

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Khaul

I get off, bright, very bright with both the Kato SX and the Tomix CL. My EMUS stay stationary with the lights on with both packs.

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kvp
17 minutes ago, Khaul said:

I get off, bright, very bright with both the Kato SX and the Tomix CL. My EMUS stay stationary with the lights on with both packs.

Thanks! This should be the normal operation for both.

 

The analog filter should disable this and result in a gradual brightness increase, very much what the old Kato packs produced. This gets rid of the benefits of the PWM drive too for slow speed running.

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Yavianice
8 hours ago, kvp said:

The analog filter should disable this and result in a gradual brightness increase, very much what the old Kato packs produced. This gets rid of the benefits of the PWM drive too for slow speed running.

 

Nope, it does not. I'm currently not anywhere near my layout until next week. Then I will make a comparison video for you, and post it here.

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nightshade

Tomix and Kato KC-1 ( with the KM-1 )  power packs are PWM power packs

the PWM pulse works for lighting - ( and the motor buzzes because of the small pulse generated)

On kato KC-1 ( im guessing the SX and DX power supply is build from that ) has a pot on the back

of the controller to adjust the pulse  ( by adjusting u can make the lights brighter - raising the modulation

and darker lowering the modulation ) .  Colorless motors will run fine ( when u lower the modulation all

the way down - it is not moving off the bat) .  The buzzing sound same as having a DC loco on DCC ( DCC locos 

wont run well or wont move at all on PWM power pack - tested with my FP45 and Challenger )

FEF-3 ( corless motor - will move off the bat if the PWM if raised just a bit ).  It took me a while to get the KC-1/KM-1

but trains run a lot better - nice slow start . Plus u can just hook up the Standard blue pack to KM-1 ( and ditch the power cube -

KM-1 is a 2A power supply unit by itself ).  My power pack did not come with instructions so i was trying to find a PDF

but no luck.  While searching for that came up with Iruchans site - looks like he's building his own PSU / Controller

with lower PWM....  so colorless wont run off the bat ( he's using his d-51 for that ).

here is the link - https://iruchan.blog.so-net.ne.jp/2017-06-25

If u look through his blog u can see ( and he warns about using Tomix locos - look in the blog )

look at his blog and he explains PWM in detail.

when i can i add link to vid of my stuff running .....  

 

also on Sumida crossing more info for PWM

http://www.sumidacrossing.org/LayoutControl/DCC/DCCMotorControl/PWM/

 

MJJ

 

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