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patrick5678

EM13 pcb board dummy to simplify other decoder install

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patrick5678

Edos2300 and inobu, many thanks for the renderings. This looks very promising.

 

Revisiting my first picture in this thread and the pictures at Sumida Crossing I am somehow concerned that space is still very limited.

Especially this picture from Sumida Crossings Decoder page reminds me that there might be no space for the DH10 offset as it then will not fit into the tight space between motor flywheel and the casing.

 

I still image the DH10 to be connect to the bottom of our new PCB via low temperature soldering given the lack of space. The DH10 needs to be fully inside the size of our adapter board without the cutout (very much like Inobu's picture).

 

Inobu: has the PD05 is 1mm longer than the DH05 is wide - does is still fit into the motor chassis casing?

 

Best,

Patrick

 

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chadbag

Here are some EM13 installations in to EMU power cars (JR 321 series, JR 225 series) and a Shinkansen (W7).   I would expect other under-carriage installations of EM13 are similar as these are all the same, basically.

 

When I find my box with non-installed EM13 I will measure some thickness and also find one of my highly granular measuring stick to measure the distance from the board to the drive shafts.

 

Here are the images.   The first 2 are the JR 321 EMU power car, the second pair are the JR 225 EU power car, and the last pair are the W7 power car.

 

large.UJXmewMTRDeyypDhcJztdQ.jpg.dacc2a77bd33d2e78e6f4e9fe1466342.jpglarge.5ab1352e47301_OVxGpo3RKKTOFptxyNFtQ.jpg.34f6f63d4696f89179014332f7a16b9f.jpglarge.qOg7kCYzT7GLq8Rt7irbZQ.jpg.25f80aa2061ba0e2be8ca79a92a98fb8.jpglarge.HiYG7whrTwSUgM78lKhAnw.jpg.6f8f38d973caae136608d34ee888741c.jpglarge.5ab135d28f07a_Pa3u6T6KzibUlh573eQ.jpg.04fb92e3b50562461fc75b2c6da6100c.jpglarge.DgZoZbbzR4W3kVpQnhe2cg.jpg.1078fc7d1d1a8625ba4ecd9fc825a7c7.jpg

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kvp

To me it seems the decoders must be installed in plane and there should be no overhang around them. This mostly leaves some of the smaller Digitrax decoders, which could support both including the right edge connection pads, but the Kato decoders are made by Digitrax, so imho there is no point using the standard ones.

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Edos2300

Thank you so much Chadbag for your detailed picture.

 

It's on now, the current dummy board will be too big...

 

I will create a DH05C component as I did for the DH10C and prepare a new design with the DH05C surface mounted.

Indeed, what scares me too is the small space between the drive shaft and the decoder.

I unfortunately don't have time today, I would work on this project tomorrow

Edited by Edos2300

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chadbag

I think if the EM13 dummy is thinner, that a D&H DH05C could sit on top and still have room. 

 

It was hard as there are chips and other surface mount pieces in the way and my measuring device was rather wide, but it appears at the lowest point, applying a slight amount of pressure to the bogie, that there is 1.2mm (3/64" or a hair more than that) between the EM13 and the bottom of the drive shaft.   It could be slightly more than this, as it was cramped and my tool not the best.   If someone else can do a better job that would be appreciated.

 

The height of the DH05C is 1.4mm according to online sources.   If we could make our EM13 board thinner than the stock EM13 board it should be ok.   The place I measured was right up against the drive shaft pocket on the bogie as that is the lowest/closest to the board.

 

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kvp

Can't it be mounted in plane using stiff jumper wires from the side? (on the bottom/componentless side)

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inobu

I believe its just an orientation issue. The solder pads will lie below the driveshaft. 

 

pcb13_2.jpg.d6b452e86338ded8d7c47231e4b2bf5e.jpg

 

the dummy board is cut out so the decoder can nest inside of it.

Solder bridge keeps it in place.

 

Inobu

Edited by inobu

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patrick5678

Many thanks for the great pictures, chadbag.

 

I actually think that there is space between the pcb board and the casing. Towards the shaft its very tight, but on the other side there is actually an area exactly sized for the DH10. My first picture shows the DH10 completely falling into that space.

 

Best,

Patrick

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chadbag

It looks like all my EM13 are installed.  I don't have any not in a train, and I don't want to take one out as they are a PITA to get in and out without messing up the copper spring strips etc.  So I can't get a good measurement on thickness.

 

My SIL is supposed to be sending my EM13 I ordered and had shipped to my MIL but I don't think she has sent anything yet.

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The Next Station Is...

I found a spare EM13 whilst digging out parts for my M250 DCC install - the PCB thickness came out as either 0.53mm or 0.54mm, but I would have thought that Oshpark's 0.8mm PCB would be fine as a substitute?

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patrick5678

Happy Easter to all of you!

 

I am still very excited about this project and spent my train ride home learning some KiCad basics. Pretty complex in the beginning, but I managed to work through a tutorial and outline our EM13 board.

 

Overall the possibilities are pretty endless!

 

Best,

Patrick

 

screenshot2018-04-0112kq20.png

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patrick5678

A wonderful sunny good morning to all of you!

 

Although my CAD skills haven't progressed a lot, I have other news to share to move this project forward:

 

I ordered an EM13 and it has well arrived (from DM-Toys).

 

img_77973xo02.png

 

Inobu did an excellent job in measuring this board and the decoder is 0,5mm thick. Feels really thin and fragil.

I am sure that 0,6mm will also work.

 

Size-wise the DH05C really has just the same length as the EM13.

 

img_7800cfocj.png

 

The DH05C also fits really well into the cavity below the EM13.

 

img_7801t4ow2.png 

 

It is possible to insert the EM13 on top of it without any force or other issue (this picture was taken with a DH05C hidden below the EM13).

 

img_7805rtodw.png

 

Conclusion: there is enough space for an DH05C if mounted center on an EM13 if the DH05C is mounted via low temperature solder paste directly to the top of the EM13 facing into the chassis cavity (top/bottom analog to Edos2300 drawing).

 

Space on top of the EM13 is actually quite limited as there are less than 5mm if the car hits the curves.

 

img_7806ozsj6.png

 

img_7809c3s3j.png

 

I would therefore recommend to use this design from Edos2300, but remove the decoder cavity to add stability and make all connection pads for the decoder on the top side so that the decoder can than connected via low temperature solder paste.

 

EM13-Dummy.PNG

 

Best & happy Sunday.

Patrick

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chadbag

Yeah, let's not let this die.  I have no PCB layout or CAD skills but if we can get a design that works, and someone can point us to a place that does low volume manufacture of such things, I'll be in for a bunch (like 30 or so) of them to help us get to whatever minimum we need.

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Kiha66

While I can't help in the design of the chip, if it turns out the frames need a few thousands taken off to fit the chip above the decoder I may be able to do the milling for you all.  

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kvp
8 hours ago, Kiha66 said:

While I can't help in the design of the chip, if it turns out the frames need a few thousands taken off to fit the chip above the decoder I may be able to do the milling for you all.  

I think the idea was to make a drop in board that allows the cars to be restored to original state. Otherwise you could just wire in a decoder.

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chadbag

I don't have the technical skills to help further this, but I hope this project does not fall by the wayside.  I'll help fund a small batch of these and will take like 30 myself (not that I have that many EMU/Shinkansen/etc needing decoders or have the D&H decoders on hand for that many, but for the future).  (And if we need to buy extra to make some small batch minimum I could front some and then sell them myself just to help get this off the ground).

 

 

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chadbag

Anyone still interested or working on this?

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Edos2300

Hi, sorry for lack of news... I am very busy at the moment with the approach of the holidays, I am always ready to help but only from mid-August when I back from Japan.

 

On my side I could realize two prototypes of board for KiHa40, the second try is perfectly functional! I still have to make some adjustments (a dimension of the PCB to touch up and replace them with a larger model, there are currently "leaks" of light in the cabin). Then I could release the gerber files with an openhardware license.

754912823_IMG_20180611_184623(1).thumb.jpg.9d2d59b973d3258df626c761c535d33c.jpg

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chadbag
14 hours ago, Edos2300 said:

Hi, sorry for lack of news... I am very busy at the moment with the approach of the holidays, I am always ready to help but only from mid-August when I back from Japan.

 

On my side I could realize two prototypes of board for KiHa40, the second try is perfectly functional! I still have to make some adjustments (a dimension of the PCB to touch up and replace them with a larger model, there are currently "leaks" of light in the cabin). Then I could release the gerber files with an openhardware license.

 

 

Hi.  Thanks for the reply.   I don't think there is any hurry -- just wanted to not let things get lost and dropped and forgotten...

 

Thanks

 

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Edos2300

Productive weekend! I have completed the design of 3 PCBs.

 

So that everyone can use the decoder of their choice, I designed the two versions of the dummy EM13 adapter with the DH05C and PD05A decoder.

 

DH05C1.PNG.67133d03416afcb810ff2a207ec56511.PNGDH05C2.PNG.2add39765166ba6c9e23c7b2590c4406.PNG

PD05A1.thumb.PNG.e74cba1926d72e37237f70310df642b0.PNGPD05A2.thumb.PNG.79f6b90dc16b5d709088058d3c98678c.PNG

 

I ordered prototypes of each one that are due to arrive in 10 days. I will do the necessary tests and give you news at that time.

 

I also ordered a PCB of what I hope will be the final version of my adaptation PCB for the KiHa 40 from Tomix.

 

See you soon.

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gavino200
41 minutes ago, Edos2300 said:

Productive weekend! I have completed the design of 3 PCBs.

 

So that everyone can use the decoder of their choice, I designed the two versions of the dummy EM13 adapter with the DH05C and PD05A decoder.

 

DH05C1.PNG.67133d03416afcb810ff2a207ec56511.PNGDH05C2.PNG.2add39765166ba6c9e23c7b2590c4406.PNG

PD05A1.thumb.PNG.e74cba1926d72e37237f70310df642b0.PNGPD05A2.thumb.PNG.79f6b90dc16b5d709088058d3c98678c.PNG

 

I ordered prototypes of each one that are due to arrive in 10 days. I will do the necessary tests and give you news at that time.

 

I also ordered a PCB of what I hope will be the final version of my adaptation PCB for the KiHa 40 from Tomix.

 

See you soon.

 

If you get this to work, I'm also interested.

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chadbag
4 hours ago, Edos2300 said:

Productive weekend! I have completed the design of 3 PCBs.

 

So that everyone can use the decoder of their choice, I designed the two versions of the dummy EM13 adapter with the DH05C and PD05A decoder.

 

I ordered prototypes of each one that are due to arrive in 10 days. I will do the necessary tests and give you news at that time.

 

Many many thanks!   If this works, I am not sure how we arrange a production run, but I will be in for a whole bunch of them.  I've been holding of on buying more EM13 decoders for my growing stable hoping this will work...

 

For those in the US, if this works and people are interested in getting DH05 or PD05 type decoders, I'd be up to be the focal point for a mass buy that can at least save us on shipping (I may be able to do a bit more but am not sure now)

 

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Edos2300

The PCBs have arrived!

P1060499-2.thumb.jpg.15750d74f88217e9eb36e5909c9f2e69.jpg

First observation, although the dimensions correspond between the data sent and the PCBs received, the dummy board is too large, not much but enough not to fit into its location.

10 minutes of conscientious filing and the problem is solved. But on the other hand I decide not to test with the DH05C, it is much more difficult to desolder than the PD05A, so I don't want to sacrifice one at this stage.

 

Welding the PD05A is difficult, I will have to extend the pads on the adapter side on the next version. I used THT resistor legs to make the connection, but it's still too big, the ideal will be to use copper or fine brass wire.

P1060501-2.thumb.jpg.9d3a4afc39143d8e11bab23efb2ac6e7.jpgP1060502-2.thumb.jpg.90e3b7a74c6f293faa18f621e8dd43b5.jpg

 

After a quick test, everything works perfectly and the space is more than sufficient (so it should also be for the DH05C). I ordered an original EM13 to make the dimensions more reliable.
I go back to work as soon as he arrives

 

P1060500-2.thumb.jpg.cba9ae40523455e5a711772aa6b1d3a5.jpgP1060497-2.thumb.jpg.c0fffb2b9246f969a77c0487a0aa5e83.jpg

 

Otherwise the KiHa40 Tomix board is perfect this time. I will be able to equip all my engine versions and start drawing the "trailer" version.

P1060503-2.thumb.jpg.500d1b6a9a80499dae78026db2d0c774.jpg

 

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Kiha66

Awesome work!  Will these fit in the Kiha 58 and such DMUs as well?  These will be game changing if tomix trains can now easily be converted without ruining the interiors.  

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Ochanomizu

Hello,

 

Have you guys considered the Kato decoder shape might be Copyright?  Anyone looked into this?

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