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patrick5678

EM13 pcb board dummy to simplify other decoder install

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Dear all,

 

I sucessfully converted my first two Kato's to DCC thanks to Dani's great website . I am exclusively using D&H as I need the railcom support for Bidib/ Fichtelbahn control.

 

Next will be my 3037/1 EH500 3. Inbetween I opened my 10-1290 E513 series EMU using Sumida Crossing. Looks like there is perfect space for an DH05C

 

img_75161b3kk6.png

 

Given that there are many PCB-Board makers out there, I was thinking about making a small EM13 shaped board that could then hold my DH05C decoder to simplify the install.

 

Did anybody try this so far or do you normally solder the wires directly to the metal bars connected to the motor in this EMU?

 

Many thanks for your feedback.

 

Best,

Patrick

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I've toyed with idea of something similar for locomotives as the Digitrax 'drop-in' decoders are a bit awkward when they require body shell alteration and I always prefer solutions that don't require permanent modifications.

I have tried PCB design software but not been able to get it grips with it (despite being okay with normal CAD software). My idea at the moment is to use some sheet plastic, copper sheet and Kapton tape to make a basic board, without resorting to self-etching.

If you choose to make a board, please keep us updated with progress!

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One easier alternative is to get a paper thin double sided full copper circuit board and use scissors to cut it to shape and a hobby knife or dremel to partition it. Not as clean and nice as an etched and cnc cut breakout board, but much faster and cheap. I bought a letter sized board for aound 2 usd at my local circuit parts shop.

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I will just use the EM13 and will put a D&H FH05B function decoder in one of the driving cars or regular cars to help control lights, and also to function as the RailCom entity.  You may not get all the details reported back that might be possible, like speed, etc. but you should get location at least (?)  (I have not tried this yet but was thinking about this same problem).

 

It would be cool if someone made an EM13 blank configured with NEM651 socket on it with the proper routings...  A thin decoder in the socket with a thin EM13 dummy board should be able to fit under the driveshafts on the Kato EMU/DMU and Shinkansen that use the EM13.

 

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Posted (edited)

Intresting topic.

 

Chadbag, I don't have EM13 decoder, but if you provide me exact dimensions, maximum footprint and requested NEM651 socket position I can easyly design a PCB.

 

In the same vein, I wait from OSH Park two PCB recently designed, first is a remplacement light board for the Kato 2022 (used on C11 and C12) for more easly convert my loc's, second is a new 0508 TOMIX board prototype to convert my fleet of KiHa40s.
The PCB integrates stay alive components and the internal light control by DCC. It is intended to be used with a DH05C decoder "surface mounted", I should receive it and test it in a few days or a few weeks depending on the reception of the parcel. If you're interested, I'll give you the news..

2022-DCC.PNG

kiha1.PNG

kiha2.PNG

Edited by Edos2300
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Chadbag, very good ideas. I need to look for this thin copper paper. I am concerned that the space is too tight for holding a decoder with the NEM651 socked, at least on my E531.

 

Edos2300, these are exactly the kind of projects I was recently thinking about... please keep us posted with your PCB experiments. How will you surface mount the DH05C to your PCB? I clearly see the right connecting pads on your PCB.

 

I checked my box but unfortunately didn't buy an EM13 on my recent trip to Japan. I am tempted to order one just for measuring purposes if nobody else has one lying around.

 

Best,

Patrick

 

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, patrick5678 said:

Chadbag, very good ideas. I need to look for this thin copper paper. I am concerned that the space is too tight for holding a decoder with the NEM651 socked, at least on my E531.

 

Edos2300, these are exactly the kind of projects I was recently thinking about... please keep us posted with your PCB experiments. How will you surface mount the DH05C to your PCB? I clearly see the right connecting pads on your PCB.

 

I checked my box but unfortunately didn't buy an EM13 on my recent trip to Japan. I am tempted to order one just for measuring purposes if nobody else has one lying around.

 

Best,

Patrick

 

 

 

 

 

You might have to use a very small decoder like a PD05A

 

I'll do some measurements as I have an EM13 here as well as DH05C and PD05A

 

The idea of teh headless DH05C directly soldered to the EM13 dummy is also interesting.

Edited by chadbag

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18 hours ago, Edos2300 said:

Intresting topic.

 

Chadbag, I don't have EM13 decoder, but if you provide me exact dimensions, maximum footprint and requested NEM651 socket position I can easyly design a PCB.

 

In the same vein, I wait from OSH Park two PCB recently designed, first is a remplacement light board for the Kato 2022 (used on C11 and C12) for more easly convert my loc's, second is a new 0508 TOMIX board prototype to convert my fleet of KiHa40s.
The PCB integrates stay alive components and the internal light control by DCC. It is intended to be used with a DH05C decoder "surface mounted", I should receive it and test it in a few days or a few weeks depending on the reception of the parcel. If you're interested, I'll give you the news..

 

That tomix PCB replacement looks awesome, let us know how it works out.  I had resigned myself to just never taking my tomix DMU's to the club as DCC looked too hard.

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16 hours ago, patrick5678 said:

Edos2300, these are exactly the kind of projects I was recently thinking about... please keep us posted with your PCB experiments. How will you surface mount the DH05C to your PCB? I clearly see the right connecting pads on your PCB.

 

I will first weld the other components (syringe solder paste deposit and steam phase oven welding) and then apply low temperature solder paste to weld the DH05C without risk of damage; I work in an EMS, it makes things easier for assembly ; -)

 

I keep you informed about the progress of my project

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Thats cheating! nice boards, well done.

 

cheers

 

jeff

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16 hours ago, Edos2300 said:

 

I will first weld the other components (syringe solder paste deposit and steam phase oven welding) and then apply low temperature solder paste to weld the DH05C without risk of damage; I work in an EMS, it makes things easier for assembly ; -)

 

This sounds very interesting, Edos2300. I never thought about low temperature solder paste, but now the secret is out of the box. Interesting topic I need to research for our tiny soldering task.

Thanks for measuring the EM13, chadbag. I really think our Japanese models too beautiful to not DCC them. ;-)

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8 hours ago, patrick5678 said:

 

This sounds very interesting, Edos2300. I never thought about low temperature solder paste, but now the secret is out of the box. Interesting topic I need to research for our tiny soldering task.

Thanks for measuring the EM13, chadbag. I really think our Japanese models too beautiful to not DCC them. ;-)

 

I'll do my best get good measurements.  Need to find a caliper or micrometer around here (I have some from my reloading bench).   May not be until the weekend.

 

I am kind of excited about thinking of the idea of making a dummy board that allows a DH05C to be attached.  This is a good forum group project :)

 

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10 hours ago, patrick5678 said:

I never thought about low temperature solder paste, but now the secret is out of the box

 

There are many references, for example avaible by DigiKey : SMDLTLFP in syringe or SMDSWLTLFP32 in wire. At work we use EcorelFree LT140-18.

 

2 hours ago, chadbag said:

I am kind of excited about thinking of the idea of making a dummy board that allows a DH05C to be attached.  This is a good forum group project :)

 

I totally agree !

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Posted (edited)

Really a good idea.

 

16 hours ago, chadbag said:

 

 This is a good forum group project :)

 

Here is my contribution.

 

DH05C

 

13.2mm x 6.8mm x 1.4

 

The red outline is from a light board.

 

Not sure how thick the EM13 is.

 

 

5aa8b8a27e400_boarddim.thumb.jpg.c0e2985760df69b2af8653214adc08c4.jpg

 

The question is how thick the EM13 is and and how much room can the decoder shift to the left.

dboard.thumb.jpg.6a38eb75436dc04742df01127b6db5aa.jpg

 

I think you need to increase the board to the left if possible

Create solder pads adjacent to decoder pads

Insert the DH05C into the opening and bridge the pads.

 

Inobu

 

Really good idea Patrick. Das ist Deutschland

 

Edited by inobu
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I can measure the thickness of an EM13 board tomorrow if you want, however the motor tabs are a spring design so any thickness should work just as well.  

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5 minutes ago, Kiha66 said:

I can measure the thickness of an EM13 board tomorrow if you want, however the motor tabs are a spring design so any thickness should work just as well.  

That will be good. Thickness is a issue as some installs has the driveshaft going over the decoder. 

 

Thanks

Inobu

 

Did a light board its rough but it works. 

 

light.thumb.jpg.19d19c3a18edc7d591a8e9f6db63aaae.jpg

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22 hours ago, inobu said:

Really a good idea.

 

Here is my contribution.

 

DH05C

 

13.2mm x 6.8mm x 1.4

 

The red outline is from a light board.

 

Not sure how thick the EM13 is.

 

 

Great job !

 

6 hours ago, chadbag said:

Another possibility is the D&H PD05A, which is smaller, but a little thicker:  5,0 * 7,9 * 2,5 mm

 

One thing about it is it is not DC analog compatible.

 

https://www.modellbahnshop-lippe.com/produkt/Doehler_und_Haass/128-2-0-283997-003001-0-0-0-0-2-0-grp-gb-p-0/ein_produkt.html

 

IMO PD05A is it is less suitable for this type of exercise due to its double-sided components assembly and therefore greater thickness, the connections to the dummy board are then less easy as well

 

PD05A is on left and DH05C on right on the two pictures

PD05_DH05_1.jpg

PD05_DH05_2.jpg

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1 minute ago, Edos2300 said:

 

Great job !

 

 

IMO PD05A is it is less suitable for this type of exercise due to its double-sided components assembly and therefore greater thickness, the connections to the dummy board are then less easy as well

 

PD05A is on left and DH05C on right on the two pictures

PD05_DH05_1.jpg

PD05_DH05_2.jpg

 

Agreed, but if space requirements make the DH05 not fit in the available area...  

 

I‘d rather use the DH05 

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The Kato decoders are double sided. As long as the decoder pcb is located in the plane of the adapter pcb, it would fit the height restrictions. Of course this method only allows solder bridge based edge connections, but will work with any 6 pin or 7 wire decoders that fit.

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One good thing about the DH05C is that it is available without any leads at all.   So no need to get them and remove them to attach them to the board.

 

Since inobu gave the dimensions of the EM13 I did not bother this weekend measuring one.   We don't really need to worry about thickness due to the way they fit in but it would be good to get the thickness so we know what we have  to work with and if we trim some off what we gain.  I'll also see if I can measure from a drive shaft to the top of an EM13 installed in a couple power cars to see what sort of depth thickness we have to work with..

 

I'd like to see this go forward.   And maybe we can even get someone with connections with someone who does this to arrange for a bunch to be made.  I'll contribute towards it and buy a bunch.

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4 hours ago, chadbag said:

One good thing about the DH05C is that it is available without any leads at all.   So no need to get them and remove them to attach them to the board.

 

Thats one of the best features of the DH05C in my opinion. I even prefer soldering the DH05C with enamelled copper wire from the bottom.

 

I am very happy to see so much interest in this simple idea, I would also be happy to buy a few PCB or order them at the PCB makers if we have Gerber file.

 

Best and happy start into the new week,

Patrick

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According to the last dissusion (DH05C, connection with wire or copper tape), I prepare a gerber file tonight that I will submit to you in this thread.

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Here's the first try.

 

Preview on OshPark (3D rendering on KiCad does not display tracks correctly)

EM13-Dummy.PNG.83ef89ba0f6e625986a7ccb1ad006900.PNG

 

 

Position of DH05 with original EM13.

capture1.thumb.PNG.6a9af8a1d6af562148b201bc3de5de1c.PNG

 

To have enough FR4 to ensure rigidity, it is necessary to offset as indicated by Inobu. Rather than lengthen the PCB, I preferred to cut it entirely at the location of the DH05C.

 

Concerning the thickness, I don't have an EM13 but the other Digitrax decoders in my possession are all 0.6 mm thick. A standard 1.6 mm circuit seems to me much too thick compared to the proportions of the EM13 that I can see in photo on the net.

 

I remain ready to make any necessary modifications and/or transmit the source files (KiCad)

 

 

EM13-Dummy.PNG

capture1.PNG

EM13-Dummy.zip

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Here is the other decoder PD50A with a conceptual rendering.

I think the orientation is a plus.

 

pcb13.jpg.75446e70416d0d54175679c561ab1c38.jpg

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