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gavino200

M-497 "Black Beetle" - Jet powered train

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chadbag
5 hours ago, cteno4 said:

Yes I was down between the lee valley and the fisch when getting this good (expensive) set and went with the lee valley as I could find a bit more on them than the fisch when researching. Also the lee valley are pretty unique in having the side cutting blades so they tend to tear less on the edges going in, sort of pre scribes the outside and then the blade carves it out cleanly. Wished I had popped for these (like the saws stop table saw) 20 years ago! They are worth it for a lifetime of use.

 

great to hear on the new house, priorities must be made! 

 

Jeff

 

Yeah. The Fisch are similar in that the outer edges slop out to give the sane effect as the side cutting blades. Nice, really nice, clean and accurate holes.  Lee Valley, in their description, calls the Fisch style the "utility" design (and of course they explain why theirs are better).

 

I ended up with Fisch as it was recommended in a guitar builders blog or forum (this was years ago) and I had not seen other high quality brad point bits.

 

My imperial set only goes down to 1/8" which is OK for guitar building, but really big for model building.  I've bookmarked the Lee Valley site as they go down to 5/64.  I'll have to pick up a few of the smaller sizes to augment what I have...

 

Unfortunately, the Lee Valley metric only go down to 3mm, same as my Fisch.  I'd like to get 1.5mm and 2mm ones...   (Don't ask me why, as I probably don't have a good answer).

 

I'd like to get some larger ones but my Forstner bits work well and are a lot less expensive 🙂

 

House is in planning stages now.  Hope to build in summer 2020 for Fall move in.  That planning starts in earnest after Christmas.  I plan on being my own contractor (with a friend who is a contractor as my assistant and advisor).

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cteno4

Do the fisch have the extra small cutting blade on the outer edge of the tip? The looked to be the regular style with the sloped main blades out to the edge to cut the outside first.

 

jeff

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chadbag
7 hours ago, cteno4 said:

Do the fisch have the extra small cutting blade on the outer edge of the tip? The looked to be the regular style with the sloped main blades out to the edge to cut the outside first.

 

jeff

 

They are the sloped kind.  The slope tries to do the same thing that the pointy cutters do.  The Lee Valley site explains why their design is "better".  (They actually seem to sell both sorts)

 

I've never had uneven cuts or problems with my Fisch.  Also very straight, accurate holes.  The Lee Valley tipped sort may in fact do better.  I don't know. Have not tested their claims.  Bbut both try and cut the outside diameter first.

 

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cteno4

Thanks that’s what I thought. Most of the brad points try to at least slope the blade to start the edge cut first, cheap ones don’t. Even so it can sometimes tear a bit at the edge. The Lees seemed pretty unique with the blades so I got one and really liked it so splurged for the big set when they had free shipping! The fisch were really well recommended as well and I only went for the blade feature as they both looked nice.

 

jeff

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gavino200

I'm making my plan to add the skirting. I've decided to follow the example of the Kato production model and make one single skirting piece for each side. I've been mulling this over while working on the decoder side of the project and I've been puzzled about how Kato managed to join the skirting to the loco front "mask".

 

Edit: I got this completely wrong and had to rethink it through again from the beginning. I was stuck thinking of the skirts as being joined to the lower chassis. I followed forward to thinking all the modifications were attached to the lower chassis. Rather than the shell. However, on further consideration the Kato production model's skirting is clearly not attached to the under chassis. Back to square 1.

 

 

The following are close ups and detail shots from pictures featured in the following YouTube add. All credit given to the original photographer. These close ups are being used under creative commons usage.

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/VERY-RARE-Kato-Kobo-Custom-Exclusive-JET-POWERED-RDC-DCC-with-SOUND/113221642914?_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D52885%26meid%3Dd129182538c944c5823650c396fd3646%26pid%3D100011%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D1%26sd%3D153092350738%26itm%3D113221642914&_trksid=p2047675.c100011.m1850

 

Here you can see that the skirting is continuous with the front mask.

 

05qwgki.jpg

 

 

 

lHsHn8y.jpg

The Kato glass windows are not perfectly parallel. I think Kato installed their window in a similar way to me. Getting them parallel is extremely difficult and is probably not perceivable without extremely close inspection 

 

vFuEI11.jpg

 

You can see here that there's no contact between the lower frame and the front mask

 

Z0OgfA2.jpg

 

My front mask is constructed differently and is designed to take some support from this detachable stairway piece (blue arrow). Kato remove this piece so they can get their skirting flush with the face mask. 

 

McHPEV8.jpg

 

I'm planning to leave this piece on as a position guide when fixing the mask in place. Then I'll remove it and work on fitting skirts. 

 

The next step is to paint the front mask, clear coat it, and install the glass. The glass needs to be installed before fixing the front mask to the shell as this would be much more difficult to do with the mask in place. 

 

So I gave the mask a coat of primer and will paint it dark grey tomorrow. 

 

Then I'll fix it to the loco shell. Probably with epoxy. 

Edited by gavino200

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gavino200

I think I'm going to need much thinner styrene for the skirting. I'm going to order a range of thicknesses and improvise. For the moment I'll focus on painting the "face mask" and fixing it to the loco shell.

 

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gavino200

I wonder if anyone can take a guess as to what clear coat Kato used on their model. It looks like they used gloss on the front. But the rest doesn't look gloss, Pearl maybe? 

Does that make any sense? Two different clear coats on the same model?

 

Bat signals to @Kiha66 and @cteno4

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/VERY-RARE-Kato-Kobo-Custom-Exclusive-JET-POWERED-RDC-DCC-with-SOUND/113221642914?_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D52885%26meid%3Dd129182538c944c5823650c396fd3646%26pid%3D100011%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D1%26sd%3D153092350738%26itm%3D113221642914&_trksid=p2047675.c100011.m1850

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cteno4

It’s hard to tell things like thsnin photos, tends to look different to the naked eye and lighting, focus, camera all make a difference.

 

looks like a pearl or satin to me not a gloss. Also the silver tends to react differently with clear coats than other colors. That may be why the front looks different. So a test with your colors and try some clear coats to see what gives you what you want. Also think do you want to copy the Kato to look at the prototype and try to make that. Prototype is mainly polished stainless steel. That sort of a satin polish usually, not glossy.

 

jeff

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gavino200
On 8/19/2018 at 5:55 PM, cteno4 said:

 

Epoxy works well just need to hold the parts while it sets. Have you used it much? Play with it some on some tests as it can go off on you at different points and different rates with different ones. Always good to do a little test of the tubes you are using before you go at something important as they csn change with time. Mix well, stir, fold, repeat!

 

 

Nope I haven't used it much at all. Only a bit on my tunnel project and not for anything fine. This part is coming up next and I'm chickening out on using Epoxy. It seems like it might be too thick and gooey for this project. 

 

I used Testors plastic cement tonight for the first time. I used it to glue in a piece of styrene that blocks up the back door. It didn't dry too fast and gave me enough time to manipulate the part into position. Do you see any reason not to use it to glue the resin nose piece onto the plastic loco shell? 

Edited by gavino200

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chadbag
57 minutes ago, gavino200 said:

 

Nope I haven't used it much at all. Only a bit on my tunnel project and not for anything fine. This part is coming up next and I'm chickening out on using Epoxy. It seems like it might be too thick and gooey for this project. 

 

I used Testors plastic cement tonight for the first time. I used it to glue in a piece of styrene that blocks up the back door. It didn't dry too fast and gave me enough time to manipulate the part into position. Do you see any reason not to use it to glue the resin nose piece onto the plastic loco shell? 

 

I am going back a million years to my youth, and may be completely full of it, but I think that the model plastic cement is formulated especially for styrene type projects -- softens and melds the plastic together -- so you want to test it and make sure it works with your resin and does what you need it to.

 

There are thick CA glues that don't immediately dry and have a working time.  Maybe Jeff @cteno4 has an opinion on this. 

Edited by chadbag

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gavino200
5 hours ago, chadbag said:

 

I am going back a million years to my youth, and may be completely full of it, but I think that the model plastic cement is formulated especially for styrene type projects -- softens and melds the plastic together -- so you want to test it and make sure it works with your resin and does what you need it to.

 

There are thick CA glues that don't immediately dry and have a working time.  Maybe Jeff @cteno4 has an opinion on this. 

 

Thanks Chad. Yes, you're right. It actually didn't work on the back door either. This morning it's not bonded at all.

 

The problem with the resin is that I can't test it. I don't have any extra to try it on. All I have are these two parts. The front nose and the jets. 

 

One problem that I just thought of now is that the glass pieces are already installed in the front piece. They have to be as I need access to the back in order to do it accurately. I wonder if using CA would cause fogging of the glass. It's made from plexi/acrylic. 

 

 

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cteno4

Regular stryene model cements won’t work well on most resins. Most, like chad said, are designed to actually solvated some of the stryene and fuse it together. Doesn’t do that to the resin. I’ve found most other multi material glues like e6000 and the like stick ok to resin, but at times not super strong.

 

Epoxy is one of the best all around though for a really good connection. It is thick but a little dab will do you on the joint and excess can be sanded/ground off later. CA also works well. Doesn’t usually give a super strong bond laterally, epoxy is stronger for things like an L joint that will take stress against one of the sides. But for smaller parts that don’t take much stress CA will probably be easier for small parts, bigger joints with more stress  I would think epoxy.

 

its worthwhile to grab a pile of bits of various plastics and practice a little with some glues. It’s a bit of an art applying different glues and their setting up on different kinds of joints. You have different times you can easily reposition and when the go off and harden. Different Epoxy and CA glues have different setup times in the environment you are working on and their mixtures so better to learn this on some scrap than on your final piece. CA requires water to polymerize so a joint that is sealed up will take longer to set than a more exposed joint (fogging with your breath helps push things along) and thus humidity in the room can change things as well. Thin, medium and thick CA glues can have very different setting times and actions. Different epoxies can have different set up time, even batch to batch. When I’m using epoxy on something important I usually mix up a small bit of my epoxy first and test it so I don’t mess up on my important joint. Having a part not glued quite right from it going off faster or slower than expected is a bummer as most times once glued with epoxy on model stuff that’s it...

 

CA will craze most clear acrylics and acetates. Even fumes at a distance can do this, so keep it away from those and if using them near little windows put a piece of tape firmly over the window and use a small fan to keep moving fumes away (always a good practice on the workbench anyway with a little 2” 5v computer fan, don’t need hurricane force winds to move fumes of all sorts away and diffuse/dilute them). I’ve usually had crazing happen at a distance inside a car or structure whenin a hurry and not thinking where it didn’t have any ventallation (you learn this lesson after doing this a time or two...).

 

also wash the resin parts really well with soap and water with a tooth brush (don’t need to grind off your details!) and also some 70% isopropanol. The mould release used in resin casting can really muck up glueing and painting. Good to scrape important glue joints with the edge of a hobby knife a little to scratch off any little bumps or flashing and just scratch the surfaces up a tiny bit to give places to let the glue really grip into.

 

having a variety of glues to play with for what you are doing really helps and always experiment. You can usually experiment with resin parts even if you don’t have extra bits by trying a tiny test on an unexposed section like the back of your front coweling and just grind it off after the test. Better to test and be sure your glue and materials are happy and do a little cleanup than having a mess with precious parts.

 

cheers

 

jeff

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cteno4

Forgot to mention if you are doing little bits with epoxy you can just squeeze out a good dab of cement and hardener separately then just use flat wood coffee stirrers to take equal little portions off both dabs and mix them for each little glue sets as most epoxies are made to set in 5-10 minutes. Use fresh stirrers (break then in half to conserve) each time to not contaminate your stock dabs. The stock dabs are ok out in the air for an hour. Toss the remaining.

 

some equal mix epoxies you can use less hardener and make the mix “colder” and catalyze slower and thus set up slower, but you need to experiment as they are all a bit different. Most of the equal mix are designed to be just that equal mix and don’t work well out of that.

 

jeff

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gavino200
28 minutes ago, cteno4 said:

Forgot to mention if you are doing little bits with epoxy you can just squeeze out a good dab of cement and hardener separately then just use flat wood coffee stirrers to take equal little portions off both dabs and mix them for each little glue sets as most epoxies are made to set in 5-10 minutes. Use fresh stirrers (break then in half to conserve) each time to not contaminate your stock dabs. The stock dabs are ok out in the air for an hour. Toss the remaining.

 

some equal mix epoxies you can use less hardener and make the mix “colder” and catalyze slower and thus set up slower, but you need to experiment as they are all a bit different. Most of the equal mix are designed to be just that equal mix and don’t work well out of that.

 

jeff

 

That's great advice. This is my second time using this glue, and I've wasted a lot of glue each time. It's setting right now. Seems to be going well. It's quite hard to judge when it's exactly square at this scale. The tiniest movement has a massive effect. 

 

After this come the two hardest steps - making the skirting and masking the shell for painting.

 

7BYdYP4.jpg

Edited by gavino200
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cteno4

Yeah for some reason the tendency is to squirt out like 20x what you need for little stuff and usually you have multiple joints you need to do and no sense trying to rush things before the mixed epoxy goes off. Again always test first with the epoxy you are using, most will polymerize some on their own when exposed to air at various rates.

 

When you mix do the the swirl for a few seconds then flat scrape up and fold over a few times, and then repeat this many times. The more thoroughly mixed quickly the more even and consistent it goes off and hardens well. Like soldering using epoxy is mostly experience and practice!

 

for larger batches these are perfect and better than a stick to mix. Worth the 4 cents

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Facial-Mask-Stick-Applicator-Mixing-Spatula-HH/272425603670?hash=item3f6dd4d256:m:m6QTpT0kNdyAmyzkngfAqQQ

 

cheers

 

jeff

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gavino200

Since, I'm in a pause until my evergreen styrene sheets arrive, I decided to experiment with masking and painting, using the practice shell. I didn't spend long on the masking because I just wanted to get a feel for it, but it went much better than expected. I used special Tamiya masking tape that can be made to curve. But the radius at the end is too small, so I had to carve a curve with a hobby knife. That part is rough. And I did it "on the shell" which is likely to damage a shell if I keep doing it. So I need to find an alternate method for the next attempt.

 

I also discovered that this dark grey paint is solvent based, and not latex as I had thought. I've already used it for the nose piece, over latex primer. I'm not sure if this will end up being a disaster or if the clear varnish coat will hold it down. 

 

w1LA1D9.jpg

Edited by gavino200
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cteno4

Gavin, 

 

you can get wider tamya masking tape and put it on glass and cut your curves in it there. If you have it drawn out tack the paper template onto the masking tape with a bit of rubber cement and then trim your template and masking tape. Then transfer to the model.

 

jeff

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gavino200
1 hour ago, cteno4 said:

Gavin, 

 

you can get wider tamya masking tape and put it on glass and cut your curves in it there. If you have it drawn out tack the paper template onto the masking tape with a bit of rubber cement and then trim your template and masking tape. Then transfer to the model.

 

jeff

 

Good idea. I could probably draw it out. It would take me a while to crack the geometry but it should be doable. 

 

I failed Epoxy 101 btw and will have to re-do it. I also stripped the front mask down to bare resin, but the process damaged the slightly raised window frames. If I can't repair them with plastic putty, I'll have to source a new one. 

 

In any case I'll carry on using the damaged front piece held in place with E6000, then replace it when I get the new one. 

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cteno4

What went wrong with the epoxy?

 

jeff

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gavino200
13 hours ago, cteno4 said:

What went wrong with the epoxy?

 

jeff

 

Probably not mixed well enough. It looked well mixed. But I guess you have to go at it like you're competing for Olympic gold in Epoxy stirring. I live and learn. 

 

I was also unhappy about having applied solvent based paint over latex primer. 

Edited by gavino200

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cteno4

Yeah, it’s just experience knowing when it’s well mixed. This is why I strongly suggest just practicing mixing and then playing with applying as it behaves differently when applying than other glues as well. Just try three or four times mixing and then applying to like three different kinds of test joints to practice and test how much you need to mix to get it to set well. 

 

You dont need to go crazy, but I usually do probably a dozen repetitions of

  - swirl

  - scrape into a pile

  - fold over a few times

 

Also how old is the epoxy? It can go bad with time. A reason again before I expoxy something important I test the tube, especially if not new and opened. If you have tests fail on you a few times get new tube as it could be a dud. I also get smaller tubes than the big tubes or the syringe versions as I do my epoxying at varying intervals so if tubes looks old or fails a test I just chuck them and start new. Usually when it goes bad the tube will polymerize and get hard or it just won’t set at all (catalyst has gone bad or polymer has been reduced.

 

Another tip is to squirt the two lines out a few mm separate from each other. Getting s little catalyst in the epoxy can set it off and getting a little epoxy on the catalyst tube threads can epoxy the cap on.

 

while epoxies can harden up in 10 minutes it can take them a few days to fully cure. Heating can also make for a better and faster cure, but not really possible in most modeling situations and materials...

 

scaling with 2 part epoxy can also get you. When gluing on extra aluminum L supports for a members coffee table layout (he was adding a very heavy plate glass top) we were redoing I did epoxy for one leg and it worked fine. Then I did three legs worth and seemed to mix fine but in the end the bond just didn’t happen well on those three! I knew better to spend the extra 10 minutes and do them one by one.

 

If you are scrapping this shroud then use it for some practice and test. May also be the resin used does not like epoxy. Also try thick ca glue on it. Again make sure the resin is clean, some resin mould releases are like a waxy coating that can take some work to get off. You can also use an abrasive like comet cleaner (make a paste and rub on work with a tooth brush) and also try isopropanol, denatured alchol or mineral spirits. Some castings can have a rough surface and the release gets stuck down in the pits a lot. Also roughting up the joint surface with a sanding stick or fine emery board helps th epoxy get a grip as well as make a flatter joint with fewer gaps.

 

sorry I was trained as a scientist so I go straight to trying a test to see if an experimental setup will work to get what needed done! If it doesn’t change the most probable variable and test again... takes a tad more time but in the long run its shorter, safer and I learn more for better understanding and experience.

 

cheers,

 

jeff

 

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gavino200

It's possible that if I left the epoxy cure longer it would have stuck well. However, it was clear that it wan't ideal. It took a LONG time before the parts were well adherent. And after half a day it was extremely easy to remove it. So I was better to shut down and redo rather than accept a suboptimal result. 

 

I like this description: 

 

"You dont need to go crazy, but I usually do probably a dozen repetitions of

  - swirl

  - scrape into a pile

  - fold over a few times"

 

Except I'd probably say:

"You have to go really crazy on it, usually about a dozen repetitions of

- swirl

  - scrape into a pile

  - fold over a few times"

 

Approx how long do you swirl for?

 

So I don't really regret taking it down. Getting the epoxy off both pieces was difficult but not terrible. 

 

What I perhaps do regret doing was stripping down the resin part. That's where I damaged the window frames. 

 

So here are the possibilities.

1. I ordered new resin parts today. They only cost $18, so no big deal. There's no electronic purchasing so you have to send in a letter with a check. Strangely enough, I find this frustrating in this electronic age. So annoying not to have immediate confirmation of receipt and payment. 

 

Assuming the guy is still alive and gets the order, I'll use the current resin piece as a test piece and glue it to the practice shell. 

 

If however I can't get replacements I'll have to fix this one. Two ideas.

1. Place the glass in the frames prodruding slightly. Then build up around it with plastic putty. Then file down when dry. This is currently in-test. If it works, I'll have to repeat it with the window insets painted. This method is likely to be too crumbly and weak.

 

2. Make tiny frames out of thin styrene and glue them in place. 

 

If I can get a replacement face piece, I figured out a way to add the glass pieces after it has been glued on. So I may be able to use thick CA anyway. I suspect that might be superior to using tiny quantities of epoxy. 

Edited by gavino200

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cteno4
10 minutes ago, gavino200 said:

1. I ordered new resin parts today. They only cost $18, so no big deal. There's no electronic purchasing so you have to send in a letter with a check. Strangely enough, I find this frustrating in this electronic age. So annoying not to have immediate confirmation of receipt and payment. 

 

LOL! how far we have come or descended! Ive spent most of my life ordering stuff that way! guess im just an old fart...

 

I use to get so much pleasure as a kid going over the ads in the train magazines, sending off an SASE (Self Addressed Stamped Envelope) to get their full product lists, making up an order (pre computer), sometimes having to get a postal money order, mailing it off, waiting indeterminate time, getting the package was then such a joy and rarely a problem. modern order confirmation, tracking and delivery in a few days just takes all the fun out of it! oh and yeah, i walked 12 miles to school in the snow and uphill both ways, now get off my lawn!

 

it really sounds like either the epoxy is bad or just not mixed well enough to get hardener (catalyst) uniformly mixed. might have set in many days and cured in a week or two.

 

like most glues there are phases. tacky phase where you can move things and pull it apart; set phase where things stop moving, but glue is not completely done hardening; and cured phase where the reaction is totally done and completely hardened. with epoxy he curing phase can take days to completely finish the reaction and full strenght be done, but you get a lot of it done in just the set phase.

 

i would try a test of it on some scraps to see if good mixing does the trick. if it works practice a few more times, its the only way to get to Carnegie hall! i assume its the usual two tube 5 or 10 minute epoxy, correct?

 

LOL how many times do i swirl it! i had to clear my mind, take a pen and pretend i was making a batch. i never count, just do, ive done it soooo many times in my life.

 

i would say like ten 360 swirls and maybe 3-5 folds on each repeat. scraping it all up into a pile again each time after swirling really helps i think as stuff starts to get spread out and parts not mixed on the swirls and folds. the stuff is thick so it takes more to get it thoroughly mixed.

 

btw ive always been curious whats in the two part equal mix epoxies. many resins have all the polymers in one big bucket and then you just put a small amount of catalyst (usually a liquid and sometimes just drops) into the large volume of resin then mix. i assume the equal parts have polymer in one tube and fillers (probably acrylic) and catalyst in the other. sorry the chemist in me likes to know...

 

cheers,

 

jeff

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gavino200
30 minutes ago, cteno4 said:

 

LOL! how far we have come or descended! Ive spent most of my life ordering stuff that way! guess im just an old fart...

 

I use to get so much pleasure as a kid going over the ads in the train magazines, sending off an SASE (Self Addressed Stamped Envelope) to get their full product lists, making up an order (pre computer), sometimes having to get a postal money order, mailing it off, waiting indeterminate time, getting the package was then such a joy and rarely a problem. modern order confirmation, tracking and delivery in a few days just takes all the fun out of it! oh and yeah, i walked 12 miles to school in the snow and uphill both ways, now get off my lawn!

 

LOL

 

30 minutes ago, cteno4 said:

 

it really sounds like either the epoxy is bad or just not mixed well enough to get hardener (catalyst) uniformly mixed. might have set in many days and cured in a week or two.

 

It was the mixing. From your description it's clear I only did a fraction of what's necessary. It was Gorilla glue brand epoxy. two approx 20 cc syringes joined together. Do you have any particular epoxy brands that you like?

 

30 minutes ago, cteno4 said:

 

like most glues there are phases. tacky phase where you can move things and pull it apart; set phase where things stop moving, but glue is not completely done hardening; and cured phase where the reaction is totally done and completely hardened. with epoxy he curing phase can take days to completely finish the reaction and full strenght be done, but you get a lot of it done in just the set phase.

 

This is interesting.

 

30 minutes ago, cteno4 said:

 

i would try a test of it on some scraps to see if good mixing does the trick. if it works practice a few more times, its the only way to get to Carnegie hall! i assume its the usual two tube 5 or 10 minute epoxy, correct?

 

LOL how many times do i swirl it! i had to clear my mind, take a pen and pretend i was making a batch. i never count, just do, ive done it soooo many times in my life.

 

i would say like ten 360 swirls and maybe 3-5 folds on each repeat. scraping it all up into a pile again each time after swirling really helps i think as stuff starts to get spread out and parts not mixed on the swirls and folds. the stuff is thick so it takes more to get it thoroughly mixed.

 

Thanks. That's a LOT more than I would expect. 

 

 

30 minutes ago, cteno4 said:

 

btw ive always been curious whats in the two part equal mix epoxies. many resins have all the polymers in one big bucket and then you just put a small amount of catalyst (usually a liquid and sometimes just drops) into the large volume of resin then mix. i assume the equal parts have polymer in one tube and fillers (probably acrylic) and catalyst in the other. sorry the chemist in me likes to know...

 

 

I only have basic pre-med chemistry but I'd also find that interesting.

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chadbag

With regard to clear plastic fogging up with CA fumes.  There was a post -- I think in this forum -- to A guy on YouTube who was modeling airplanes and he treated the canopies with some sort of furniture cleaner.   Made them stay clear and IIRC let them from CA fogging.

 

Does this ring a bell with anyone?

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