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gavino200

M-497 "Black Beetle" - Jet powered train

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cteno4

Gavin,

 

most likely the model was dome done by Kato with pad printing not a decal so it’s a bit harder to get off. Pad printing is kind of like paper printing but the ink is applied to a form cut into a pad and ink applied and the car carefully pushed against the pad to transfer the ink. Then many times clear coated. 

 

As kiha said isopropanol is a good start. Start at 50% and work up as it can got a lot at the base paint. Denatured alcohol can also work. Best to gently apply the alcohol to the bits to be removed and let sit a bit and try gently blotting or swabbing off or even scraping with a hobby knife. Hard to get them perfectly off and no damage to the undercoat of paint, but if you are repainting it works well to get things smooth and just the base paint colors.

 

start small and experiment, everyone I’ve ever attempted has behaved differently (a number of variable of paints, overcoats, etc).

 

cheers

 

jeff

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gavino200
5 minutes ago, cteno4 said:

Gavin,

 

most likely the model was dome done by Kato with pad printing not a decal so it’s a bit harder to get off. Pad printing is kind of like paper printing but the ink is applied to a form cut into a pad and ink applied and the car carefully pushed against the pad to transfer the ink. Then many times clear coated. 

 

As kiha said isopropanol is a good start. Start at 50% and work up as it can got a lot at the base paint. Denatured alcohol can also work. Best to gently apply the alcohol to the bits to be removed and let sit a bit and try gently blotting or swabbing off or even scraping with a hobby knife. Hard to get them perfectly off and no damage to the undercoat of paint, but if you are repainting it works well to get things smooth and just the base paint colors.

 

start small and experiment, everyone I’ve ever attempted has behaved differently (a number of variable of paints, overcoats, etc).

 

cheers

 

jeff

 

Thanks. I'll probably get to this in a couple of weeks. I had mostly been thinking of how to make a painting mask for this and how to cut the skirting pieces. But I see I have a few hurdles before I get even that far. 

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Kiha66

There's currently one of the kato built ones with dcc sound for sale on ebay, although rather marked up.  You could make a lowball offer and see if they accept it.  I've gotten lucky a few times with that.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Super-RARE-Kato-Kobo-Custom-Exclusive-JET-POWERED-RDC-DCC-with-SOUND/153092350738?hash=item23a503e312:g:9wAAAOSwUqBbQup2

Edited by Kiha66

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gavino200
33 minutes ago, Kiha66 said:

There's currently one of the kato built ones with dcc sound for sale on ebay, although rather marked up.  You could make a lowball offer and see if they accept it.  I've gotten lucky a few times with that.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Super-RARE-Kato-Kobo-Custom-Exclusive-JET-POWERED-RDC-DCC-with-SOUND/153092350738?hash=item23a503e312:g:9wAAAOSwUqBbQup2

 

Thanks. Interesting...up until now I've had more than a bit of fear about this project. But when I saw your post (but before looking at the ebay page), I felt a bit disappointed. If the loco was cheap I couldn't really justify the work that the project will take. It seems that I actually want to attempt this project. 

 

Actually, I bought the materials for this about a year ago and they've been sitting in a box since then. The project has risen to the surface of my mind a bunch of times, but I'm long since over the feeling that "I must have this train". I feel fairly indifferent now about the train, but I'm still interested in the project. Weird, right? In any case the RDC was cheap, and I don't even like it anyway. The resin parts didn't cost very much either. If the project fails there's really not much drawback. But more likely, if it's obvious that I can't do it, I'll just shelve it until I've build up enough skill to do it right.

 

The photos on the ebay page will be super helpful. I might email him, tell him I'm interested and ask if he'll post a sample of the sound. 

Edited by gavino200
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Kiha66

Good point, it's pretty clear that the value of the finished model justifies the work, and even if it doesn't come out quite as well as you hoped it should be a good learning experience!  

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gavino200
43 minutes ago, Kiha66 said:

Good point, it's pretty clear that the value of the finished model justifies the work, and even if it doesn't come out quite as well as you hoped it should be a good learning experience!  

 

Yes! I'm looking forward to working with the airbrush. 

Edited by gavino200

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gavino200

The seller was nice enough to post a YouTube video on request. It's a nice model. The decoder controls front and rear lights, as well as the interior lights. There are also lights in the jet engines to simulated "after burners" or whatever the jet fire is called. That's probably not something I can reproduce unless I used a different jet engine, maybe from an airplane model. I'm not sure what kind of decoder can handle four separate lights, like this.

 

 

Edited by gavino200
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Kiha66

Since the engines came from a B-36 bomber, I'm fairly certain the real ones didn't have afterburners.   The sounds and lights are pretty cool tho!  Nice of the guy to make the video for you.

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gavino200

You're completely right. You can see here at 2:23 and 6:23 the back of the jet engines are completely dark. Thanks!

 

 

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TSK1000

Hope the project turns out well. Was going to link you to the eBay listing for a RDC Beetle but I just saw that Kiha beat me to it. 

Edited by TSK1000
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gavino200

First step. Removing the decals and pad printed details. I left it overnight and it just wiped off in the morning. A very small amount of the base coat silver came off too. Mostly were I was rougher than I needed to be. Rather than trying to take all the base coat off for a complete re-spray, I'm going to leave it as is - and maybe do one light coat of silver over this.

 

I'm planning to use a well thinned Tamiya 'Flat Aluminum' XF-16

 

M7NGauh.jpg

Edited by gavino200
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gavino200

N need to make the door and skirting alterations before doing any more spraying. I ordered some evergreen styrene last night in .040 and .030 thickness (I hate inches/feet btw). The loco with and without the extra skirting can be seen in the links below.

 

Below is the plan for the extra parts, that I got from the person who sold me the resin nose/jets. I think I can cut the profile. But I'm not sure how to go about making the taper at the bottom. I could use sand paper or files, but I think I'd lose the crisp uniform look of a factory part. I'd like to work out some way of standardizing this.

 

I think the best way to do this would be to first make the taper on a long strip and then cut it to size with the circular flange.

 

2b2uw2m.png

 

Kato RDC

http://www.katousa.com/N/RDC/

 

Kato M-497

 

http://www.lestrainsdedaliplumes.com/les-infos-des-fabricants/28-actualite-kato/61-loco-kato-rdc-nyc-m497-turbojet-dcc-n.html

 

Here's a picture of the rear door filled in. the door is removable on the Kato model which makes this part easier.

 

https://oldmachinepress.com/2015/04/29/new-york-central-m-497-black-beetle/

 

I'll also need to fill in the small steps beneath the door on the RDC. I'll have to experiment with different types of modeling fillers/puttys.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by gavino200

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gavino200

As mentioned earlier the Kato model has LED's inside the jets to simulate "after burn". Kiha66 points out that this model of engine doesn't have any "fire" come out the back to the LEDs aren't prototypical. This is true. But they do look cool. So while not committing to it I'm giving this some thought.

 

I think I see how Kato does it. In the picture below it looks like they've cut the jet transversely into three sections. This way it would be possible to hollow the rear two segments and fit LEDs. My main question is weather I could make a cut thin enough so as to not lose to much material. A razor blade comes to mind.

 

To see the segmentation, click on the upper image in the link below. 

https://www.trovestar.com/generic/zoom.php?id=124289

 

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chadbag

In the "Strategic Air Command" movie piece, the 2:23 was before the jets were on.

 

There is a difference between having an afterburner on and "flames" coming out the back, and a jet being hot enough to create a glow inside the rear of the engine.  I don't know if the jet would be hot enough to create a glow in the rear of the engine or if you could look inside in a dark area and see any glow or not.   But I would not be surpris ed that if you looked at the engine in a darkened condition, for the rear looking up into the engine, you could see a glow.

Edited by chadbag

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gavino200
56 minutes ago, chadbag said:

  But I would not be surpris ed that if you looked at the engine in a darkened condition, for the rear looking up into the engine, you could see a glow.

 

You mean  like if you stuck your head up inside the engine? Maybe, you'd see some glow. Who knows? It's clearly not bright at 6:23 in the video. Whereas the Kato M-497 model jets glow bright in full light. It seems like this isn't prototypical. But I think it looks fairly cool. So I may want to do it if I think I can. 

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chadbag
2 hours ago, gavino200 said:

 

You mean  like if you stuck your head up inside the engine? Maybe, you'd see some glow. Who knows? It's clearly not bright at 6:23 in the video. Whereas the Kato M-497 model jets glow bright in full light. It seems like this isn't prototypical. But I think it looks fairly cool. So I may want to do it if I think I can. 

 

Not sticking your head up, but just looking at the rear from behind.

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gavino200

Yeah, I was just joking Chad. I knew what you meant. Would you mind giving me your two cents on my decoder question in the DCC section?

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nickhp

The combustion area is very small and embedded so you would not see any glow/fire inside the engine, and no part of the engine glows because you have cooling airflow (bypass air) wrapping the inner core that dissipates any heat created by the "hot" part of the engine.

Edited by nickhp

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gavino200
2 minutes ago, nickhp said:

The combustion area is very small and embedded so you would not see any glow/fire inside the engine, and no part of the engine glows because you have cooling airflow (bypass air) wrapping the inner core that dissipates any heat created by the "hot" part of the engine.

 

So, as someone with obviously a good understanding of these things, when you look at the video showing the LEDs glowing in the back of the Kato M-497 jet engine, does it still look cool? Or just plain silly?

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nickhp

Yeah, that happens to be the part of the aircraft we make where I work, the parts that house the engines (well, among other things such as the complete 737 fuselage, etc.).

 

So watching that video, the first thing that comes to mind is that if the engine glowed like that, the roof of the train would melt very quickly, as would everything around the engine.  BUT, all I would say is that it is one of those times you have to ask yourself, are you really going for realism or for that "wow factor" for others that see it?  I think that should be what drives your decision.

 

Afterburners simply pump fuel into the back end of an engine, reigniting unburned air to create additional thrust, but this requires complex aft nozzles that can vary in diameter as trying to push that much thrust through a non-afterburner sized nozzle would create too much stress on the structure.  If you watch an aircraft go into afterburner, you can often see this happening.

 

Cheers,

 

Nick

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Kiha66

The J47 engines used on the RDC used "can" style combustion, so even looking into the back of the engine all combustion would be out of view.  Glowing metal really shouldn't be happening in an engine since metal hot enough to glow is usually past the elastic region and would be heading for failure fairly quickly.  I agree about the "wow factor" though, it was a fantastic idea, adding in a little fantasy to make it more fun seem to fit in well with the theme of the build!

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-WnaCdvqBR7U/VJjQNz8TsNI/AAAAAAAAy_o/_WzC__HPKWQ/s1600/2.jpg

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gavino200
23 hours ago, gavino200 said:

Below is the plan for the extra parts, that I got from the person who sold me the resin nose/jets. I think I can cut the profile. But I'm not sure how to go about making the taper at the bottom. I could use sand paper or files, but I think I'd lose the crisp uniform look of a factory part. I'd like to work out some way of standardizing this.

 

I think the best way to do this would be to first make the taper on a long strip and then cut it to size with the circular flange.

 

2b2uw2m.png

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I have an idea for how to make this taper. It involves finally getting the belt sander that wasn't on sale during "Prime Day".

 

https://smile.amazon.com/WEN-6515-Belt-Sander-Sanding/dp/B01M68YKST/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1529283038&sr=8-3&keywords=1+belt+sander

 

I need to make a jig holding the styrene strip at exactly 90 degrees straight up. ie parallel to the sanding belt.

 

Then some trigonometry to work out the angle of the taper.

 

Then offset the jig so that it's the same angle turned away from the belt (in the horizontal plane).

 

Then either sand by increments measuring with a caliper, or mark the styrene and then sand. I think this is probably too small a distance to accurately mark, as it may be less than the entire diameter of a fine felt marker tip.

 

Anyone see any problems with this, or have any better ideas?

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gavino200
23 hours ago, gavino200 said:

 

I'll also need to fill in the small steps beneath the door on the RDC. I'll have to experiment with different types of modeling fillers/puttys.

 

 

 

I'm planning to try this putty recommended by @Bubule in a different thread. Is this a valid/suitable use for this product? Is there something different I should think of trying?

Edited by gavino200

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cteno4

Gavin for something this small the sander won’t work. It will be next to impossible to eat even pressure and the jump of the belt will be too much. Would work on a steel knife blade but stryene is too soft to try this fine a bevel on something so small. Sander is better for slightly larger stuff than this. Doing this by hand would give you much finer control.

 

I think the best hope for trying to do this would be to take larger piece of 040 stryene sheet that is a bit wider than the length of the skirt and attach it well with duct tape, Double stick tape or glue the far edge to the supporting piece of wood (like a piece of 1x2 with flat surface and sharp corners that you can clamp to the work bench) with the edge you want to bevel right at the edge of the support block. then use a fine flat hand file to taper the long edge of the stryene along the free edge at the edge of your support. Just keep the file at the taper angle as you hit it. It looks like a flat taper there so easy to do this by hand. You can mark along the strip where the taper should end. Then you can smooth it with some 400 sandpaper glued to a stick or use a very fine emery board. You can do smooth even strokes with some practice (if anyone you are the one who can do this well!)

 

then just cut off the appropriate bit from the edge of stryene sheet and cut your end curves by hand and oval file.

 

this may take a few tries to figure it out. Trying to use clips or clamps to hold the styrene i don’t think will work as they will probably get in the way of your filing. I doubt you can easily hold a strip of 040 x 0.2” stock 3.5” Long well except maybe double stick tapering it done on the edge of the support block, but you could try. hence maybe trying using 040 sheet where you can attach it down othe opposite edge from where you are doing the taper then cut off your strip on the edge with the taper.

 

a trick to do the mark on something like this where the mark could be too large is to use a sharpie and Mark up the whole top of your strip (area). Then as you file your taper you loose the sharpie color on the tapered bit you have cut and can use this to measure how far in you have cut the taper. Also could do it on the thin edge as well. Sharpie comes off pretty well with isopropanol or fast wipe of acetone (too much can eat stryene, practice first)

 

jeff

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gavino200
4 hours ago, cteno4 said:

Gavin for something this small the sander won’t work. It will be next to impossible to eat even pressure and the jump of the belt will be too much. Would work on a steel knife blade but stryene is too soft to try this fine a bevel on something so small. Sander is better for slightly larger stuff than this. Doing this by hand would give you much finer control.

 

I feared as much. But I think there was some undercurrent of wishful thinking fueled by my desire to have the sander anyway. I bought it. And I've no regrets 🙂

 

4 hours ago, cteno4 said:

 

I think the best hope for trying to do this would be to take larger piece of 040 stryene sheet that is a bit wider than the length of the skirt and attach it well with duct tape, Double stick tape or glue the far edge to the supporting piece of wood (like a piece of 1x2 with flat surface and sharp corners that you can clamp to the work bench) with the edge you want to bevel right at the edge of the support block. then use a fine flat hand file to taper the long edge of the stryene along the free edge at the edge of your support. Just keep the file at the taper angle as you hit it. It looks like a flat taper there so easy to do this by hand. You can mark along the strip where the taper should end. Then you can smooth it with some 400 sandpaper glued to a stick or use a very fine emery board. You can do smooth even strokes with some practice (if anyone you are the one who can do this well!)

 

then just cut off the appropriate bit from the edge of stryene sheet and cut your end curves by hand and oval file.

 

I like this thinking. I bought .03 and ,04 sheets as well just in case, so they're already on the way. I could glue the .03 styrene board to a board with the styrene overlapping a little. Then I could set the board up at the taper angle. I mean glue it in place so it's firm. Like an easel, or a tilted architects board, but tiny. Then I could glue fine sandpaper to the side of a block (a rectangular prism block with 90 degree angles). with the setup on a low friction surface I could gently slide the block back and forth against the styrene/easel to create an even taper at the desired angle. I picked up some 1500 grit sandpaper at Harbor Freight.

 

 

4 hours ago, cteno4 said:

 

a trick to do the mark on something like this where the mark could be too large is to use a sharpie and Mark up the whole top of your strip (area). Then as you file your taper you loose the sharpie color on the tapered bit you have cut and can use this to measure how far in you have cut the taper. Also could do it on the thin edge as well. Sharpie comes off pretty well with isopropanol or fast wipe of acetone (too much can eat stryene, practice first)

 

 

This is a great idea. I'll use it. 

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