Nankai Conductor apologizes for so many Foreigners on train

[Jcarlton]

On the train to Kansai Airport.

http://en.rocketnews24.com/2016/10/13/japanese-conductor-apologizes-for-inconvenience-of-many-foreign-passengers-being-on-the-train/

Apparently it was in response to a Japanese passenger complaining. Still this was the train to the airport. What did the passenger expect.  And sometimes the Japanese desire to be polite runs amok.

[bill937ca]

Previous thread:   http://www.jnsforum.com/community/topic/12065-wasabi-terrorism-cranky-conductor/

[bill937ca]

There is a picture circulating of a railway car completely full of luggage with what appears to be a Chinese tour group. 

 

And a reply:

 

Well. The option is to force Nankai to lower the price on the Rapid service. Currently the price differential is too great for people to want to take the premium service. I know I always avoid doing so (though I travel off-peak and not in a mass like the Chinese tour groups do).

Edited October 13, 2016 by bill937ca

[Jcarlton]

I'm beginning to see what's happening here.  The combination of using the regular express, rather than the Rapid by large groups of Chinese tourists, who are notorious for loading up with stuff bought in Japan on shopping trips and the typical crowding is making a regular commute even more of a nightmare than usual.  As far as the Chinese tourists go, it wouldn't surprise me if these trips were setup by travel agencies to be shopping and not much else.  And the people doing the shopping tend to stock up on things like rice cookers that use up a lot of room.  I wonder if there's a market for an express package service? 

[kvp]

On many european public transit companies there are luggage rules. This means each passenger is allowed to carry two items of regular sized or one item of oversized luggage (with maximal dimensions stated for both, regular size is around a pet carrier box). If there is more luggage, then an extra full fare ticket has to be bought for each one. This quickly puts the price of an 'any number of luggage allowed' premium service below the regular service fare and helps move people with too much stuff towards these. Having dedicated luggage sections on most suburban trains also helps (those are mostly used by commuting cyclists).

 

In this case, i think only the wording was not too polite. Something along the line of 'We have large numbers of tourists on our train today, so please be patient and our company is sorry for inconveniencing regular passengers.' would have been much better.

[Sacto1985]

I'm beginning to see what's happening here.  The combination of using the regular express, rather than the Rapid by large groups of Chinese tourists, who are notorious for loading up with stuff bought in Japan on shopping trips and the typical crowding is making a regular commute even more of a nightmare than usual.  As far as the Chinese tourists go, it wouldn't surprise me if these trips were setup by travel agencies to be shopping and not much else.  And the people doing the shopping tend to stock up on things like rice cookers that use up a lot of room.  I wonder if there's a market for an express package service? 

 

I wonder why the Chinese tourist agencies don't just hire more bus service between central Osaka and Kansai International Airport? And Nankai should impose luggage carrying limits on any non-Rapi:t service between the airport and Nankai Namba Station, which will strongly discourage this type of activity.

 

A problem with JR West's Haruka service is that the train does NOT stop at Osaka Station, which makes it not very convenient for travelers going to hotels around Osaka Station in Umeda. But now with the reconstruction of the former Umeda Freight Terminal, I believe JR West is going to put in a brand new routing on the former freight line that will now allow Haruka to stop at a new underground station just west of the Grand Front Osaka shopping complex.

Edited October 14, 2016 by Sacto1985

[railsquid]

I wonder why the Chinese tourist agencies don't just hire more bus service between central Osaka and Kansai International Airport?

 

Then the tours wouldn't be as cheap...

 

And Nankai should impose luggage carrying limits on any non-Rapi:t service between the airport and Nankai Namba Station, which will strongly discourage this type of activity.

 

Unless they're prepared to enforce those limits, which will be expensive in terms of personnel and fisticuffs with enraged tourists, I can't see that being very effective. Maybe introduce one car on each train with minimal seating and plenty of luggage racks?

[bikkuri bahn]

I wonder why the Chinese tourist agencies don't just hire more bus service between central Osaka and Kansai International Airport?

 

There is the cost factor as railsquid mentioned, and the fact that there are just not enough buses available given the tourist boom the past couple years.  Apparently the Fuso bus factory in Toyoma is churning out coaches as fast as they can to meet the demand. OTOH some firms may be cautious about ordering too many, given the shenanigans in the East China Sea.

[Sacto1985]

In the end, the best solution--though you may not agree with me!--is the following:

 

1. Nankai should lower the cost of the Rapi:t service to around 1,050 to 1,100 yen one way to encourage a lot more riders using that service.

2. Nankai should discourage passengers on any non-Rapi:t train between Nankai Namba and Kansai Airport from carrying luggage except for carry-on luggage.

3. The opening of the new Osaka Station platforms for the JR West Haruka service should take a big load off "regular" Nankai and JR West service to and from the airport.

 

I wonder why we don't hear such complaints in regards Narita Airport ground transportation, unless the Narita authorities are way more successful encouraging passengers to use the JR East Narita Express and Keisei Skyliner trains or the Limousine Bus service to and from that airport. Of course, it does help that "regular" trains to and from Narita take a long time to travel between central Tokyo and the airport.

[railsquid]

I suppose Osaka is closer to the mainland and cheaper to get to for the real cheapskates.

 

Unfortunately it's been a decade since I last took a regular train to Narita, but I remember it being pretty full of backpackers who were confused by the existence of Narita Station.

 

Next trip out there in a couple of weeks, I'll keep an eye out for suitcase-beladen hordes on the cheap trains.

[kvp]

Afaik many regular trains turn back before reaching Narita airport (at Narita or Higashi Narita), so using them would require a transfer and most airport expresses are non stop on the outer sections, so transferring there is not possible. Essentially everybody trying to use the commuter service are up for a good walk or have to take a shuttle bus like before the lines reached the airport.

[katoftw]

Personally I take the Rapid service from Tokyo to Narita Terminals for 1320 which takes about 85 minutes over the N'EX which cost 3020 yen for the same route.  The N'EX is only 30 minutes faster.

 

I'd be pretty sure taking a rapid over the Haruka from Tennoji or Osaka to KIX would net similar savings.  Or Namba to KIX.

 

The difference is I wouldn't carry such large suitcases or in large hordes taking up huge spaces.

Edited October 18, 2016 by katoftw

[railsquid]

Afaik many regular trains turn back before reaching Narita airport (at Narita or Higashi Narita), so using them would require a transfer and most airport expresses are non stop on the outer sections, so transferring there is not possible. Essentially everybody trying to use the commuter service are up for a good walk or have to take a shuttle bus like before the lines reached the airport.

 

Incorrect, there is a mixed service pattern of express and normal trains on both JR and Keisei lines. I don't recall service frequencies off-hand but I'm sure it can be found easily enough.

[katoftw]

A simple check of hyperdia would net the answers.  I'm pretty sure all trains that stop at Narita also stop at the Airport terminal stations.  Some expresses bypass Narita though.  Maybe years ago services ran like kvp explained.  But in recent times,  the airport is the end of the line.

[Kabutoni]

Afaik many regular trains turn back before reaching Narita airport (at Narita or Higashi Narita), so using them would require a transfer and most airport expresses are non stop on the outer sections, so transferring there is not possible. Essentially everybody trying to use the commuter service are up for a good walk or have to take a shuttle bus like before the lines reached the airport.

 

Higashi Narita? LOL. That station has only one or two (three in morning rush hour) per hour, with mostly locals (4 or 6-car trains) to Ueno. From Keisei Narita the trains that don't go to to Higashi Narita (Shibayama-chiyoda) all go to Narita Airport. It can be used to go to the airport, but you have to be prepared to walk at least half a kilometer through a boring tunnel to get to the terminal. This has been in place ever since Higashi Narita lost its status as a Airport terminal station. It still houses four tracks and two platforms, of which only half are in use. One of my son's harem assets has done a video about this:

 

 

Walking from Narita station to the airport... Yeah, no...

 

From Narita Airport a big number of trains travel into the Metropolitan area on either the Keisei Main line, the new Narita Sky Access line (combined tracks of Keisei Group and many other companies) and the JR East Narita Airport branch line (Yes, it's actually called the 成田線空港支線). This makes three connections all with different traveling times, pricing and destinations.

 

The Keisei Main line route is the cheapest, but has Keisei Ueno as its destination. The Narita Sky Access has both Ueno (Keisei Skyliner only @ 37 min.), as well as stations along the Keisei Oshiage line, Toei Asakusa line, Keikyū Main line, up to Haneda Airport on a regular hourly basis. The destinations are comparatively limited over this network, but it's the cheapest option for destinations into the Metropolitan area without transfer.

 

Then you have the JR East Narita line which is the most expensive, but most versatile, as it will get you far into the JR East network and even Fujikyū Highland (seasonal) with the N'EX. Foreigners with a JR (East) pass can use this connection freely. Even without a JR pass, foreign tourists can buy a pixed price ticket and get to any JR East destination in the Metropolitan area, no matter how many transfers.

 

Next to that, very regular highway, shuttle and Airport Limousine bus services directly to hotels and remote stations are available. These are usually the cheapest option, but are prone to have delays due to heavy traffic. Comfort of the driving style can also be affected by the driver and company. :P

 

Anyway, on the foreigners being a nuisance on the train with large luggage can be a problem on the Narita access routes from time to time as well (at least experienced it once), but that's what happens on airport access trains. Keisei has recognised this problem by offering a faster trains than the regular Keisei Main line trains for a little bit more expense (ran with trains that can top 130kmh) with as little stops as possible between the Metropolitan area and the airport. Most stops beyond the metropolitan area are on very remote Hokusō line stations, so it's only a few regular commuters that have to deal with it (ridership isn't very high anyway). It's up to the railway companies how to deal with these problems. If it's a recurring problem, I'm sure this will be addressed soon.

 

To form an opinion on this it's wise to actually visit and ride these trains yourself, do some research on the timetables and what material runs where.

[railsquid]

Also when considering Tokyo don't forget Haneda airport, which is what I used last time I flew to China. Though unlike KIX/Nankai the Haneda trains (Keikyu and monorail) are very airport orientated and in the case of Keikyu not doubling as a main commuter route.

[kvp]

So this means nowdays most local trains go to the airport branch instead of continuing towards Kuzumi or taking the Abiko branch? (i'm only seeing Joban line sets on the latter) This is interesting considering the airport access routes seem to be single track at the common approach part. (one cape and one standard gauge track)

[railsquid]

Again, I'm not intimately familiar with the service patterns on both companies' lines but Narita Airport is one of the terminus stations for those 15-car Yokosuka/Sobu line trains and has been for at least the last 20 years (which is when I first used them) and presumably since the airport stations were opened. As far as the single lines on the shared JR/Keisei stretch go - ever heard of passing loops?

[Kabutoni]

- For JR East trains, just take a look at the time table from the airport: http://ekikara.jp/newdata/ekijikoku/1301271/up1_12211041.htm Most trains are N'EX services, with only one or two locals per hour.

- The Keisei Main line has the most non-express fare trains (just one Morning Liner per day): http://ekikara.jp/newdata/ekijikoku/1302011/up1_12211041.htm

- The Narita Sky Access the highest density (up to 5 per hour), but with Skyliners roughly every 20 to 40 min.: http://ekikara.jp/newdata/ekijikoku/1204011/up1_12211041.htm

 

The Narita Sky Access line and Narita Airport branch line are single track, since they are built on the former Narita Shinkansen, which has only space for two tracks. Investing in new infrastructure would have been too expensive and the Shinkansen bridge was already built anyway (until the burst of the bubble era), so it was decided to split the costs between JR East, Keisei Group, local interest groups and the airport to put the old trackbed to its best use.

 

Comparatively to the Kansai airport, Narita has a very inefficient rail connection system. Kansai also has a two track access only, but because Nankai and JR West share the same gauge and car lengths, they can run on the same tracks and have true double track, single direction operation, allowing a combined twelve (!) trains per hour departing from the airport. JR: http://ekikara.jp/newdata/ekijikoku/2701131/up1_27362011.htm Nankai: http://ekikara.jp/newdata/ekijikoku/2707031/up1_27362011.htm With a packed train on a service that has non-express fare runs every ten to twenty minutes, that's either really heavy ridership or just an unfortunate circumstance.

[railsquid]

- For JR East trains, just take a look at the time table from the airport: http://ekikara.jp/newdata/ekijikoku/1301271/up1_12211041.htm Most trains are N'EX services, with only one or two locals per hour.

 

Shows how often I use JR from Narita.

 

Mind you it's always amusing when people claim Haneda is more convenient - depends which direction you're coming from, for me - assuming good connections - it's only 10 minutes less (albeit 2,000 yen more).

[kvp]

Most trains are N'EX services, with only one or two locals per hour.

Thanks! So where do most of the locals from Chiba and beyond turn back? Before, at or beyond Narita? Some do go beyond like before the airport branch was built and as you write a few take the airport branch. Where do the rest go if there is any that is unaccounted for?

 

Edit: I think they go towards Sawara and Chosi so bypass the airport. This would solve the problem of tourists using it as a cheaper alternative, since they could only be used to/from Narita station. Maybe if most locals on the Nankai route would skip the airport (only), that would steer people towards the dedicated trains?

Edited October 19, 2016 by kvp

[Densha]

Found this video from a Japanese television show about people riding the Nankai trains from Kansai Airport to Osaka.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sgLOEc5J0XM

 

It basically says that many people use Nankai because it's cheaper than the JR Hanwa Line. The reason why people don't use the Rapi:t is because it's more expensive while it's just only a few minutes quicker.

 

Apparently Nankai is now making the tickers for the Rapi:t cheaper to get people to ride the dedicated airport service. They're also creating more luggage spaces, just like the JR trains to Kansai Airport have.

 

Nankai uses regular longitude-seat commuter trains for their locals to Kansai Airport though, and the program also mentions that that may be one of the problems that is not (yet) solved. The JR trains are also slightly wider, but that's something that can't do done anything about considering the loading gauges of the JR and Nankai networks.

Edited December 16, 2016 by Densha

[bikkuri bahn]

I almost always take the Rapit over the express, especially when I have a bit of luggage.  Much more comfortable and you can relax.  It strikes me as penny wise and pound foolish in the manner of the tourists with their bundles of merchandise trying to save a few hundred yen on fare.

[Welshbloke]

https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:JNR_Kumoni143-7.jpg

 

Think I just found the solution!

 

Funny part is that it's exactly the same as used to happen with sailors from the USSR. My mum's family lived in Falmouth for a few years in the 60s and you could apparently tell when a Soviet ship was due in by the electrical shops stocking up with domestic appliances. At least they'd brought their own transport...

Edited December 20, 2016 by Welshbloke

[bill937ca]

Why not just a JR East style cattle car where all the seats fold up?