Triple loop and two controllers?

[inobu]

Now that you have Anyrail you don't need me anymore.

 

One note on point 6. 

Every feeder needs a return to complete the loop. The additional switches provide the line with a loop for both feeders.

 

In any case make sure you lay your design out and test it.

 

Inobu

Edited September 2, 2016 by inobu

[kvp]

Having only turnouts provide power routing means they have to be kept in crossover state to route power across. Live frog turnouts can't be cut, so simple looping on a loop powered by live frog crossovers is not possible. Otherwise a single turnout pair could provide the power as electricity flows in both rails (you don't need two pairs).

 

So i would still suggest having the loops isolated and using two on-off switches to power the middle loop, either directly (like katoftw suggested) or through two 4 pole relays to be a bit safer.

[amszterpeter]

Thank you all for your comments.

Thanks to the generosity of my spouse, the additional items needed for completion have been ordered today from Hobby Search Japan.

To make the illustrations more readable, and stay within the 50 piece Anyrail limit, the main lines and the branch line are separated. The branch line is rising in the back and located above the mainline in the top left corner.

The railroad is separated into three electrically isolated sections at the turnouts.

The inner loop is powered by controller 2.

The outer loop is powered by either controller 1 or controller 2.

The branch line is powered by controller 1.

The connecting switches for the outer loop are located adjacent to each other on the control panel forming a manual safety feature.

Now the long wait for the postman.

Edited September 2, 2016 by amszterpeter

[inobu]

Having only turnouts provide power routing means they have to be kept in crossover state to route power across. Live frog turnouts can't be cut, so simple looping on a loop powered by live frog crossovers is not possible. Otherwise a single turnout pair could provide the power as electricity flows in both rails (you don't need two pairs).

 

So i would still suggest having the loops isolated and using two on-off switches to power the middle loop, either directly (like katoftw suggested) or through two 4 pole relays to be a bit safer.

 

This is power switching. The train can navigate the entire loop. There are no issues with the frogs or any need for isolating the switches. The only stipulation is controller 1 and 2 should not be switched to the inner loop at the same time. 

 

This design can be thrilling for the children because the train can collide. One must be watchful as they can intentionally cause one but kids are kids.

 

In any case I wanted to disprove the fact of the frog issue. Power routing is an alternative to having multiple controls on a single layout with DC.

 

 

Inobu

Edited September 2, 2016 by inobu

[inobu]

Peter,

 

The inner loop on your design is a dead loop. The train will enter into the loop and must stop at the switch as it comes around again.  At that point you must reverse the train and come out of the loop end of operation.

 

If you look at the video. The center loop is isolated and controller 2 can navigate on its main loop. The only caveat is the controller 1 has to yield to controller 2 main line passage.

 

Inobu 

 

 

Controller 1 using inner loop (Violet). Controller 2 using its main line (Red).

 

 

Second Case

 

Controller 2 uses inner loop (Green) . Controller 1 is restricted to branch line (Yellow).

 

 

In this case. Controller 1 can drop off a loco in the inner loop between the switched on the north side. Controller 2 can then

drop a loco between its switches for controller 1 to retrieve. This allows interaction between the two lines. It is the task assignments

that will encourage the children verses watch a train go around in circles.

 

This is the intent of the layout which fits into the original criteria.

Edited September 2, 2016 by inobu

[inobu]

Peter,

 

You want to order here first then to Japan.

 

Inobu

[kvp]

Inobu, you are using the wrong (your own) trackplan and giving contradicting advice. Also please try to understand the difference between live frog and dead frog operation. Kato #4 turnouts can do both but dead frog leaves a large section unpowered which can lead to stalls, especially with children or short locomotives and slow speeds. Having to cut a dead frog turnout can also lead to derailments with lighter rolling stock. Live frog turnouts could not be cut without causing a short. The ability to straighten out the turnouts and still be able to run aroud the outer loop is a good thing, especially with children.

 

Having to reverse while switching loops is imho acceptable, as this is normal operation on real double track lines.

[inobu]

kvp

This will be my last post concerning this. My post are based on helping other to achieve their objectives not to show my knowledge or abilities. it is about learning and teaching. Based on your responses you seem to know the theory behind power routing but not the dynamics on the components. 

Here is why I say that.

 

This is your comment

 

Having only turnouts provide power routing means they have to be kept in crossover state to route power across. Live frog turnouts can't be cut, so simple looping on a loop powered by live frog crossovers is not possible. Otherwise a single turnout pair could provide the power as electricity flows in both rails (you don't need two pairs).

• Having only turnouts provide power routing means they have to be kept in crossover state to route power across.

This statement is a given with some familiar with power routing. the concept is to use a switch to route power. 

• Live frog turnouts can't be cut, so simple looping on a loop powered by live frog crossovers is not possible

The idea is to establish a complete loop with the switches. The loop can be released via the switch making it a temporary loop.

• Otherwise a single turnout pair could provide the power as electricity flows in both rails (you don't need two pairs).

This comment show you don't understand the concept.

 

I created the video to show other that what you were saying was not true and that the layout presented works, now you are trying to say that children operating at certain speeds is the issue now. Which is not true. The operation of the switch and how they operate is based on the quality of the install.

 

My initial post stated that I used #4 and I assumed that the 20-230 and 20-231 operated accordingly. After looking at the 20-230 and 20-231 I saw that Kato's had released a bad product. The design is flawed. The only explanation in the design is to support DCC more so DC. In any case I have resolved the issue and will have "my" 20-230 and 20-231 working as stated.

 

It is not about showing what I know and more so showing people how to. 

 

You have 3415 post how many of them are you actually taking time to show people how to. The forum is about helping people. 

 

The best thing about this thread is...

 

Anyrail was introduced .

Different configuration promoted a different perspective

The design flaw in the 20-230 and 20-231 was identified

A fix for the switch is in the works

And Peter knows to go to Modeltrainstuff before going to hobbysearch.

 

Inobu

 

"The reason you think I'm a jerk is because I am". Inobu

Edited September 3, 2016 by inobu

[kvp]

Inobu your problem seems to be understanding what other people say. In this case there was a ready layout design and help was asked in wiring that and not changing it. I also wrote several times (with links) that the turnout you selected works differently and is not suitable. It took a week for you to understand it (or at least check it). In case of the loops it was written that one use case requires two trains looping on the two loops without crossing over anywhere. This rules out the power routing solution and espcially your back and forth crossing 'complete' loops. Please try to understand the questions first as imho you are not really helping anyone this way. Please don't try to win, try to be helpful.

 

ps: the isolated loops solution proposed by Katoftw actually gets rid of most operating problems that could be created with cross loop power routing and works very reliably regardless of turnout and track configurations

[inobu]

Sure thing. Keep posting

 

Inobu

[amszterpeter]

Just a note to Inobu:

I appreciate your input and ideas.

Regarding the dealer Modeltrainstuff, I just received an order from Japan, the important items, numbering six to be exact, can not be found at that site. I model a specific period: 1964; a specific place: Western suburbs/country side of Tokyo-to, and use for structures, people and assorted accessories the Tomytec line and their Giokore (Diorama Collection.) I use one of their reference books by Tomix: Diorama Hoby-gaido (Written in Japanese), followed by "Let's Enjoy Diorama" (in English). (FWIW I do read acceptable Japanese and have a native speaker to help at home if I have the need.)

I don't take pleasure paying the EMS charges, but I do prefer specific things. As for ordinary goods, I will use Modeltrainstuff.

Cheers.

Peter

[inobu]

No problem. They are a good resource for some general items. I use them first and then Hobby search or Plaza Jpn. Now you have them in your browser that's what counts. .

Inobu

[cteno4]

Peter,

 

both modeltrainplus and locoihobby will do custom orders for you if you talk to them. Nariichi at model train plus will also do some custom shopping at other stores in japan for you for a small fee if he has the time. both wonderful sources with very personal service.

 

cheers

 

jeff