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The problem of long trains and not enough space


kvp

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It's clear that 11-15 car prototyically correct sets need a lot of space even in N scale, but a typical bookcase 6-7 car set is still long and needs at least a whole meter of platform space. Add the turnout areas and some curves on both sides and you end up with a layout that is too long for many rooms.

 

I actually tried quite a few configurations to get a station into a smaller space but with very limited results as turning it 15 or 30 degrees only increases the available length by a single car, but needs way more depth than what is easy to handle.

 

I would like to ask everyone for ideas about how to get a multiple track station made for 7 car sets and the accompanying line into as little space as possible while keeping the 280/282 mm minimal radius for curves. Single and double track layout ideas will be both welcommed, point to point, continous running and any mix of this too. The only important detail is to have enough platform length for 7 car sets of 20 meter cars on most station tracks.

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im sure you have but have you considered the 'bitsa' approach used by British modellers in particular, where you just model the interesting bit of the station - the end bit. The rest is imagined and hidden off stage, usually under station buildings and cityscape. works best with urban themes obviously.

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I don't think there is much to it.

 

Most my my trains are 8 cars, so most of my plans are for eight cars.  The smallest option is top just have the station at the back of a layout with your platform length, turnout a little straight into tunnels that go nowhere.  And have a smaller platformed section for rural/commuter trains run around the layout.  This though I would be wasting money on turnouts.

 

If you want continous running, then you just have to suck it up and make sure you have the space to do it.  Even if you angle the station 15-30 degrees, if hardly makes a difference.

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From what I've seen, many Japanese stations have gently curved tracks. 

 

Obviously, it will make it much harder to employ kit stations / platforms, but using wide radius curved tracks and curved turnouts can probably save you a few feet - and perhaps create a more interesting visual experience.

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Not the answer you're looking for, but I long ago decided to limit platform lengths to about 4 Shinkansen cars, makes life so much easier. Sure, a couple of cars in the larger booksets won't get used much, but it's a compromise I'm reasonably happy with. And I can still run longer trains in roundy-roundy non-stop express mode if the mood takes me :)

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I often wonder where I'd be if I started building a layout before buying add on sets.  If I'd built a layout for 3 and 4 car consists, I'm sure my layout would be finished by now instead of plan-plan-scratch head-replan-replan.  Notice no do-do-do?

Edited by katoftw
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It may not be the case in Japan, but on Amtrak trains not all doors will open at every station, although it may be more an issue of available trainmen than platform length.

 

There is an announcement through the PA system approaching the station to alert people to this.

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There are some stations in Japan where not all doors can open due to restricted platform length, though not on the Shinkansen network (unless there are some odd "legacy" stations on the mini Shinkansen lines).

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I often wonder where I'd be if I started building a layout before buying add on sets.  If I'd built a layout for 3 and 4 car consists, I'm sure my layout would be finished by now instead of plan-plan-scratch head-replan-replan.  Notice no do-do-do?

 

:P

 

Come to think of it, I have approximately zero add-on sets, and only about 5 or 6 booksets with more than 4 cars.

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im sure you have but have you considered the 'bitsa' approach used by British modellers in particular, where you just model the interesting bit of the station - the end bit. The rest is imagined and hidden off stage, usually under station buildings and cityscape. works best with urban themes obviously.

 

My main station, with the ends (particularly the far end) hidden behind tall buildings, makes the length (or lack thereof) much less obvious,

28217349950_1f721e62da_c.jpg

main-station by Rail Squid, on Flickr

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kvp, on 23 Jul 2016 - 3:56 PM, said:

It's clear that 11-15 car prototyically correct sets need a lot of space even in N scale, but a typical bookcase 6-7 car set is still long and needs at least a whole meter of platform space. Add the turnout areas and some curves on both sides and you end up with a layout that is too long for many rooms.

 

Modifications would be needed if you wanted platforms for all four tracks, but this provides the possibility of meter-plus platforms for the outer two tracks within a 6' overall length.  You would need to sharpen the inner curves if you wanted a double-track main splitting into four tracks at the station.

 

I realize it doesn't look like a typical Japanese station, but as Kato said "you just have to suck it up and make sure you have the space to do it" if you're not willing to compromise.  Landscape and/or structures could be used to suggest the need for the curved turnouts. 

 

The interior is seriously track intensive, but this was an exercise to specifically see just what could be crammed onto a 36" wide door - say for someone with a lot of trains and who liked to see them all run, but little space.  However, there is minimal storage for 6-7 car sets, so you might need an adjacent yard to store longer trains.

 

 

gallery_941_192_39637.jpg

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I just modified the earlier design into a minimum space layout for 5-8 car trains with a four track station.  The yard could be tweaked to fit in more and/or longer trains.

 

Minimum radius is 280 as mandated by the curved turnouts et al, and I believe this is a tad too tight for Shinkansen.  Track is Tomix.

 

The base is a 36" x 80" door, and the platform lengths are 52" and 44".  I have just placed the tracks and platforms by eye, so don't know how this relates to the dimensions of the commercially available stations and platforms, but feel they could be accommodated.

 

Using Tomix controllers, four trains could be in play, with alternating departures on each line from the station.

 

 

gallery_941_192_25561.jpg

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So far two solutions seem to be realistic, either using curved turnouts, which is hard if you want to keep the standard geometry and track spacing or hiding most of the station in the curve under a big building which is not uncommon in Japan, but this hides the trains that aren't moving.

 

I'm thinking about how to mix these ideas and get the 7 car sets into a 120x60 cm (4x2 feet) layout with a 4 track station and continous running. It seems nearly impossible, but this is the size that seems still managable if the layout has to be packed away every time.

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I would have to say that is not nearly impossible, but definitely impossible.

 

If all you have is 2'x4', you'd be much better off with a tram layout.  Run the long trains at your club.

 

Is there any option to suspend the layout from the ceiling, with a system of pulleys to lower it?

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If all you have is 2'x4', you'd be much better off with a tram layout. Run the long trains at your club.

I checked that the smallest layout needs at least 140x70 cm a bit more than a 4x2 feet. This allows a double track oval, but little else outside the outer track. I already started a traction layout on two 70x40 modules and while it's nice, the type of trains that i could run on it is rather limited compared to what i have and also ran into the issue of too much track and not enough space to put the buildings.

 

Is there any option to suspend the layout from the ceiling, with a system of pulleys to lower it?

Not really as the ceiling is already low enough (or rather i'm tall enough) that i represent a constant threat to the light fixtures on it.

 

I start to feel like the usual 4x2 feet (120x60 cm) is not the best size for a japanese double track, perhaps 140x70 cm would be better as it actually fits a double track oval. The Tomix recommended size (used for the diorama mat) is 180x90.

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FWIW 180x90 is equivalent to 1 tatami mat (for a certain value of tatami, actual effective tatami size varies between region and builder).

 

My original setup was a folded-dogbone on 180x90, with space for a simple outer loop if I wanted. Not really enough for  more than 4 cars if you want some space for scenery and some sidings.

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Some variations on the theme.

 

I decided that it was better to have the yard on a separate one foot wide and 5' long module, which allows storage for six long trains.  I added this to the corner closest to the double crossover, but you could move it to any corner and/or create an L shape based on the space available.

 

The outermost track is 317mm radius all around - except for the wye turnout for the revised yard location, so you could run Shinkansen on that, but the inside track of the curved turnout is 280.  Most of the outer track on the inside loop is also 317mm, except for the curves leading into the station, and it's possible these could be made 317 also.

 

 

gallery_941_192_19707.jpg

 

 

 

This also allows other options for the middle of the loop.  If you want this to be a downtown scene, you could add a UniTram line, which would give you four trains / trams moving at the same time.  You could also use Tomix tram track for greater flexibility.  Further, the tram track could be replaced by a Tomix bus line.

 

 

gallery_941_192_109329.jpg

 

 

 

Another option is to add some freight operations.  The freight train pulls off the inside track into a small yard area.  The local switcher (could be diesel), pulls off a cut of cars, perhaps adds a few, and then the train leaves.  The engine could possibly swap ends, using the main, for the return trip to the yard.

 

The small yard contains a runaround track to facilitate the yard engine getting the cars in the right position for delivery to the industries - including one off the outer main.  More could be added in the corners by the station, but I was thinking these would be used for office or apartment buildings.

 

This is just one possible design, as there are almost an infinite number of possible track arrangements for adding freight operations.  Instead of individual industries, you may prefer an intermodal yard.

 

For this option, the station serves workers in the industrial area, and there is also some housing clustered around the station. 

 

 

gallery_941_192_30794.jpg

 

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Using the Kato #6 turnout passing siding set will net you a passing siding that does hold 7 cars (it holds a Wide View Hida) but you have to be careful on where you stop the train because you cut it really close. The mainline won't hold 7 cars (at least cars as long as the Hida, I'm pretty sure though that an E6 fits on it). Once again you have to be careful on where you stop it since the clearance is close. Currently going through the process of making my station make more sense so I'm dealing with this too.

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Velotrain, a small problem with the designs above are the inner loop platforms as many cars will hit the middle island platform when going in from the curves, so that would mean shorter platforms there and that would make the outer loop facing side shorter too.

 

Nah00, could you link an example of this setup? I'm not too good with the geometry of the Kato #6-s.

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Martijn Meerts

What I'm probably going to do with the full length shinkansen, is make the main station pretty much the only part where the shinkansen will be visible. The advantages are that I can run full length shinkansen in the first place, I can run them slow so I can enjoy seeing them pull into the station, and I don't get the insane noise of a 16-car train running on a layout at high speeds :)

 

1 end of the shinkansen line will go straight into the helix/hidden yard. A road (with tram tracks probably) with surrounding buildings will hide the entrance to the helix, sort of like the road that crosses Shinjuku Station. The other end will split into 2 double lines, with 1 going straight into a mountain, and the other curving in front of the mountain initially, and then eventually move into the mountain as well. Hidden under the mountain will be some additional sidings and passing tracks so it looks like the station is serviced by various different shinkansen.

 

In essence, if you think of the shinkansen line as an oval, only 1 straight section will be visible, while the rest is hidden.

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With limited space you could just couple say 8 non-end cars together (so the cars form a loop) on a circular track with part hidden in tunnels and have them run round and round to enjoy a Shinkansen of apparently infinite length.

 

Alternatively you could create a small dogbone with the end loops hidden, which would give the impression of two trains moving. Of course you'd be limited to just the one type.

 

Either solution would be problematic if you wish to see the end cars. A possible solution would be to stick to coupled sets of two different types, as seen on the Tohoku Shinkansen, which would give you four end cars.

 

Just joking (I think).

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Nah00, your setup is around 1.5 meters long, even without any curves. That's nice, but rather long for a small layout and stopping within a few mm is not easy. This is the basic problem with long trains and using long straight stations. But it's good to know the curvature of the siding adds just enough length to squeeze in.

 

Martijn, that means, essentially your whole shinkansen layout is hidden except the station. And the hidden parts contain a helix with a hidden yard and another (elevated level) hidden yard in a mountain. For a small space layout, this could be translated as two helixes next to each other or two ballon loops on top of each other. I think we've seen a good layout plan based on the two ballon loops idea with a 4 track curved ramp on one side, that i've made a kato-tomix translation of. Imho it would be interesting to see if 'the only visible track is the station' concept is viable for a smaller continous running layout while keeping the japanese theme. (there are plenty of british prototype ones on the net)

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Martijn Meerts

kvp, true, but in my case, the shinkansen line is only 1 part of the entire layout. The station will also have regular trains and short local trains etc. That's really the main focus of the layout, the shinkansen bit is just to have some shinkansen running. (The reason I used the shinkansen as example is because the shinkansen bit is just about the only thing I've planned that I'm reasonably happy with :) )

 

I think if shinkansen were the only thing you're running, this idea might not be very good. On the other hand, a large-ish station does tend to draw the viewer's eye quite a bit, so it might work.

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