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Das Steinkopf

World Kogei Tokai KiYa 97

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Das Steinkopf

This is certainly a great piece of news for anyone that was after an affordable rail transporter that also doesn't take up a mile of track, this is a really nice alternative to the Pairhands conversion kit. The fact that it is a plastic kit is a major bonus, it will be far more easier for the average modeller to build and not require the skills of a surgeon or half a decade to assemble.

 

http://www.amiami.com/top/detail/detail?gcode=RAIL-20885&page=top

 

http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/image/10363737a/20/1

Edited by Das Steinkopf

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katoftw

Ordered mine yesterday

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Das Steinkopf

Ordered mine yesterday

Looks like you got the jump on me, I ordered mine tonight.

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Atobit

Looks good, I'll order a set too.

If I understood well, it is an unpainted kit, correct?

Unfortunately, it seems no option to get the flat cars. Or is there any way to get those cars?

 

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

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keiichi77

I just ordered a set today as well, like Atobit mentioned, it doesn't seem like the flatcars are available, which is a shame, I would like to have a 6 to 8 car rail train.

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kvp

There is a bit of confusion here. There is a longer train that has a bit higher cabs and ramps for the long rails on the fronts. This however seems like a genuine 2 car set for short pieces and other equipment. Someone with more knowledge in modern MOW equipment might wish to correct me though.

 

ps: adding general flatcars in the middle is always an option, but more than 2 might load the motor bogie too much.

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Das Steinkopf

There is a bit of confusion here. There is a longer train that has a bit higher cabs and ramps for the long rails on the fronts. This however seems like a genuine 2 car set for short pieces and other equipment. Someone with more knowledge in modern MOW equipment might wish to correct me though.

ps: adding general flatcars in the middle is always an option, but more than 2 might load the motor bogie too much.

From what I have seen JR Central uses these units on secondary mainlines such as the Kisei Mainline and the Iida line, all of the photos I have seen of them show them as a 2 car unit but they can be run as a multiple unit with another member of the class attached to them.

 

http://photozou.jp/photo/show/50802/11186676

Edited by Das Steinkopf

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velotrain

Perhaps ask one of the dealers in Japan to contact World Kogei to see if they would consider releasing a flatcar version - even if unprototypical? 

Or, perhaps just an unpowered version of the kit for those who want a longer train, as shown in the photo posted by das Steinkopf?

 

It looks to me that they wouldn't need to do much - simply not include the cab, power unit, and additional handrails.  They might need to create a new sprue for the shorter handrails on the intermediate ends with no cab.  A 2-car set would make sense.

 

I'm guessing that the rubber rail supplier Jeff has referenced multiple times provides far more rail than you would need for this particular application, so wonder if it would be pragmatic for someone to order the rail, and then divide it up into suitable amounts for this MOW set - perhaps cutting it into appropriate lengths.  Unless - there is another source for shorter lengths of flexible rail?

 

Other questions would be:

 

Are there any close-up detail photos of these cars loaded?  It would be interesting to see how they separate layers of the rail, and I can't really make it out on the proto photo of the two unit train.  It looks like the rail retainers on the W.K. kit are molded in place, say at a height for two layers of rail?  This could no doubt be bashed to other levels, but it seems unfortunate that it is so crudely cast.

 

How is the unloading done?  The most obvious answer is that a small crane is brought to the site, but just what is it and how is it moved?

 

Are the blue panels on the side of the cab emblematic of JR Central, or one of the lines using these?

 

What is the proto rail length carried on these?

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keiichi77

Found this video on youtube, looks like they really are just 2 car sets, and if more rail is needed they simply ad more sets. Nice to see how the rail is loaded though. ;)

 

 

 

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Das Steinkopf

Found this video on youtube, looks like they really are just 2 car sets, and if more rail is needed they simply ad more sets. Nice to see how the rail is loaded though. ;)

 

You really have to wonder how many gunzels there are in Japan, in this video there is at least 4, the guy filming the video plus another 3 on the adjacent platform.

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velotrain

keiichi - thanks for posting the video, I was surprised that the rear of the cab is unpainted (stainless steel?)

 

I was thinking it's too bad that companies like World Kogei (and Tomytec, et al) don't partner with an electronics firm to design a customized lighting set while the kit is in development, so they could both be announced - and hopefully available - simultaneously.  I suspect that this would help increase sales of both components - coming from those who might not buy one without the other (sort of like that old Sinatra song).

 

Likewise, it would be great if World Kogei would release an unpowered set for those who might want a longer train, as it seems common to run them in pairs.  (quads ?)

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katoftw

Likewise, it would be great if World Kogei would release an unpowered set for those who might want a longer train, as it seems common to run them in pairs.  (quads ?)

Buy two sets and not install the motor in one?

 

Good thoughts on the lighting.

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velotrain

Buy two sets and not install the motor in one?

 

That could work for sure, but would you actually do anything with the other motor?

 

OTOH, the kit is cheap enough that it's certainly not a major issue.

 

Now, if they gave you a spare "trailer bogie", you might be able to bash the power truck into something useful.

 

 

>  Good thoughts on the lighting.

 

Careful -  we don't want anyone to start thinking that we actually agree on some things ;-)

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katoftw

C'mon?  We've agreed on many things.  And strongly debated the other things. haha

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cteno4

Charles,

 

I think you are wanting a bit much from World Kogei. these are more obscure models and its wonderful they are doing them! it does not look like the prototypes are built to do the longer welded rail sections so if its not prototypical they wont be making fictitious extra center cars. Making extra of things like this is not easy as the mould runs have to be done up front. 

 

Doing unpowered might be easy, but if they did a run of power units for this train specially that would mess up those numbers for them. 

 

Electronics are tricker as they tend to take a lot of assembly and not everyone wants them. I think they just let the secondary market pick up and build add-ons for models that might generate the market for lighting. It could be tough to determine what the market for extras like this would be and its not their usual thing to do much in the way of lighting. lighting also part that is the most accessible to most modelers to add on themselves.

 

Bandai it looks like toyed with the idea of doing btrain lighting units as many of their chassis have slits cut in the bottom around the truck pin to have pickups go thru and they were selling a set of trucks with wheel pickups and chasis pins that fit these slots. it looked like they were going to have some sort of pickup that you snapped into the floor of the chassis to connect to these and then leds. but the lighting units never came and they discontinued the trucks with pickups. the btrain market is huge in japan and bandai has great resources so if anyone would do addons like this i would have expected them to do it. for some reason it just did not pan out. i expect the parts may have been too fiddly to be reliable or maybe they just did not think the numbers worked!

 

Partnering is tough with companies to release products. while it sounds nice to have each do what they are good at, it takes work to make sure the two things work together as advertised when you are both supporting it and timing can be tough to get two companies to roll things out at the same time! delays in one company can create issues for the other.

 

Im very happy they did the car and its powered. adding lights will be easy and its actually nice to have an interesting mow rail car that only takes up a limited space. longer welded rail cars start to take up a lot of space and get fiddly to maintain and store! thats the main reason i backed off the larger model for now.

 

cheers

 

jeff

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kvp

The problem with adding lighting is the need for pickups. Most kits don't have pickups on the trailers and adding them later is complex. Also there are no through plates on them to connect the bogies within a single car. Imho, designing for these would make the kits more expensive up to the price of ready to run sets.

 

Since only one bogie is powered on each two car set, imho it's a good idea to power at least two bogies on a 4 car set. If you want smooth running, just make these two bogies face each other in the middle.

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cteno4

couple other videos. looks like the rail just pivots on the two supports

 

 

 

cheers

 

jeff

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kvp

That even allows pre assembled turnouts to be loaded. I bet that one of the supports allows a slight longitudinal movement too.

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velotrain

Jeff - 

 

> "I think you are wanting a bit much from World Kogei."

 

I don't know if it's because you try to read everything posted on the whole forum, or some other reason, but it seems to me that you frequently misinterpret what I write.

 

In this case, others stated that they would have liked some "additional" flat cars to put between the end units so they could run a longer train.  I was merely pointing out that releasing such would likely involve none or very minimal additional casting on the part of W.K.  I personally have no interest in the flat cars, and don't believe that I indicated any.  However, I can see how quick scanning of the topic could lead you to think I did.

 

Later in the thread we started seeing comments (and video support) that if more rail is needed, these units are simply run in multiple sets, which to me is much more appealing than having flat cars in the middle.

 

> "adding lights will be easy"

 

Just what is your easy solution?

 

Part of what I was noticing is that there are four lights forward, and only two at the rear of the train.  From the model photos on HS it isn't "clear" if the supplied glazing piece only requires a light source behind it, or might benefit from a more defined lens as part of a lighting kit.

 

I certainly realize that coordination between manufacturers can be difficult.  I was more thinking in terms of train mfr. A communicating to electronics mfr. B that they're planning to develop a model of X, and would they be interested in developing a lighting kit for it?  There would need to be some back and forth communication, but I have to think that even without complete design synchronization, a lighting kit developed in this manner would be more appealing and satisfying to a majority of modelers than bashing their own solution - as easy as it may be for you.

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cteno4

Sorry I was just responding to your post there and your list of things you suggest be asked for in reply to the other post.

 

I agree these would all be nice, but I was just trying to point out that doing small run models (even larger run ones with larger companies) with a smaller company it's tough enough to get the basic product out the door let alone variations that require changes in production runs. Also I agree with kvp that the lighting of these would be fiddly for them or a second party to do and thus expensive and thus smaller market. My point with the bandai and the lighting that is seems like they shied away from doing it as a commercial venture even though they had a large market, modular design and lots of resources. Kato, tomix and ma do lighting as they have pretty standard designs that work for them to do pickups and wiring and they do it all in large quantities so pretty affordable to build it into most of their trains.

 

Sorry, Easy was the wrong word, straightforward is what I should have said. Just requires resister and either a recifier or double up the smd LEDs for either direction. Pickups in the trucks and wheel sets that match your pickup design or using other trucks with premade pickups. Transfer could be done with direct wiring to the trucks in a custom job (I've done this with Btrain shortie tests and it works fine). If no light pipes you can drill holes in the pho light casting area, fill with gallery glass, clear plastic rod, or a piece of plastic fiber optic to go to your smd led. If you want to get fancy you could match a lens kit made to really make it ultra detailed. It is work, but doing any lighting in non lighting pre-equipped cars requires you get in and do some fiddly work if you want it as there probably be no one making kits for them for you, and you would not be happy with the price if they did make them with the tiny markets and hurdles to distributing them.

 

Just don't think you can expect a company to make a custom lighting kit to a limited run model like this. There are garage companies in Japan that do this sort of more unique custom products, but they rarely get much in the way of distribution. Setting up partnerships between companies really requires a lot of work and trust. If it's a small lighting company (I'm not aware of any real sized company engineering lighting kits outside of one) they would need to trust the train were shipping to have the kits ready and vis versa if you were going to try to do market. Delays on either side would hurt the other. Unless world kogei was selling the kit, you would not be assured a small partner would get into those distribution channels as they take time and usually certain quantities and product line size for distributors and shops to set up as well as business terms.

 

Just trying to point out that it's not easy to do these things you were mentioning. I've done product design, production, distribution, fulfillment, wholesale and retail and it's quite complicated. Even when you have the perfect product it amazing how many little details can derail it. Just pointing out there is a reason you don't see producers doing what you are suggesting.

 

Jeff

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velotrain

Since only one bogie is powered on each two car set, imho it's a good idea to power at least two bogies on a 4 car set. If you want smooth running, just make these two bogies face each other in the middle.

 

I'm curious about this, as I've always understood the traditional logic to be that you wanted multiple pickups to be far apart?  i.e. guys adding pickup to a tender to supplement that on a steam engine.

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velotrain

I'll agree that it's a niche product, and I'm also glad that WK is doing it, but they must have thought there would be a decent sized market or they wouldn't have bothered producing it.

 

I was reacting to the requests for a flat car, noting that from what I can see they could probably be created by simply leaving the cabs off the ends, and theorizing that they could be produced by WK with zero additional tooling - if they were so inclined.

 

When kvp's message noted the confusion between this product and the longer rail trains where the long welded sections are slid out underneath the cabs, and the video showed multiple units operating in tandem, it seemed interest in the flat cars quickly evaporated.

 

I think I've heard that there is a company that produces lighting kits for some of the Tomytec Collection, but don't ever recall seeing this listed as a recommended product on the HS page for the Tomytec item.

 

Actually lighting is not that big a thing to me, and I only became interested in it after watching the first video posted.  My thought was that it would be great to have all the components provided in a single kit.  Perhaps it might make more sense for a small producer to consider developing it after the rolling stock product was released, so they could be certain of the interface they're designing it for - and maybe have a sense of the possible market.  As mentioned, it was the lighted proto that got me interested.  I suspect images of a lighted model might have a similar effect.

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velotrain

 

I realized that the KiYa 97 reminds me of the similar design ( ????) 144 - 145 in the Tomytec KuMoYuNi set.

 

I found a video with varied scenes - the set looks particularly handsome at speed in the opening shot.

 

 

And one with a Tokai KiYa 97 strangely being pulled by a DE10 - any guesses as to why?

 

 

And lastly, a still I captured from a video showing an alternating up/down stacking of the rails, fitting 19 of them on each level.

 

post-941-0-17745400-1451554454_thumb.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

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Das Steinkopf

 

And one with a Tokai KiYa 97 strangely being pulled by a DE10 - any guesses as to why?

 

 

And lastly, a still I captured from a video showing an alternating up/down stacking of the rails, fitting 19 of them on each level.

 

attachicon.gifTokai KiYa 97 - alternating rail stacking.jpg

 

I think at the time there was a bit of a spat over running rights between JRF and JR Central, the KiYa 97's were being towed to a former JRF freight yard near Nagoya that serves as a depot for JR Central perway equipment.

 

Edited by Das Steinkopf

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velotrain

Thanks for the video.

 

It makes for an interesting consist, with prototype justification.

 

Yet another reason to create an unpowered set ;-)

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