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Indonesia HSR- last minute developments

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bikkuri bahn
JAKARTA: Japan's prime minister has sent an envoy to Indonesia to offer a sweeter deal to build a high-speed railway, a Japanese embassy official said on Thursday, highlighting the importance of the multi-billion dollar project that China also wants to win.

 

The two Asian giants are in a neck-and-neck contest to win a contract to build Indonesia's first high-speed rail, between the capital Jakarta and textile hub Bandung, a project that would bolster their influence in Southeast Asia's biggest economy.

 

Japan and China have until August 31 to submit their best offers to Jakarta.

 

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/international/business/racing-to-beat-china-japans-pm-shinzo-abe-sweetens-bid-for-indonesia-rail-project/articleshow/48697227.cms

 

 

 

 

 

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trainsforever8

I really hope Japan will win! Plus Taiwan's Shinkansen system is very successful, I think that this gives very good credit to Japan when it comes to exportation of their high speed rail system.

 

I recall reading an article that was comparing Japan and China's offers in this situation and they were saying that the issue is that Japan's system is "locked", in the sense that it's a whole package that they wanna sell that goes from the tracks to the trains and the way of operating and they claim that it will prevent them from being flexible when it will come to the eventual need of acquiring rolling stock but I'm totally against this argument because the advantage of having a "locked" system is that a single type of technology is used and this makes it much more easier to maintain than having a system with many types of trains. For instance, look at China's system, they have Chinese, German and Japanese trains (correct me if they have more) and I personally think that this is an inconvenient.

 

I personally believe that one of the reasons for Japan's success with its railways is that they look at "uniformity" which makes operation and maintenance much better and that might also explain why it doesn't take THAT much time for them to get new rolling stock delivered to them: Because they already know what they want and need. 

 

This is only my personal point of view on the subject, I don't really believe in China's high speed rail system, I think that Japan's would be ideal for Indonesia and they already have history of receiving rolling stock from Japan so I'm optimistic that Japan will win this contract. 

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katoftw

I never realize the distance was only 150km.  What a complete waste of time for all parties involved.  Surprized high spped rail was even on the table in the first place for such a stupidly short distance.  Just getting some hitachi a-trains that can do 160kph would do the job.  And be able to use existing and newly build lines.

Edited by katoftw

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Kabutoni

This line has seen recent upgrades IIRC, but has quite old stock running over it. Lots of curves, though that could be solved with tilting DMU. Much cheaper to do in both the long and short run.

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Fasubkhanali (Ali)

Indonesian Goverment doesn't want use nation budget to make this project. Indonesian Goverment just want this project use "business to business" system. If this project use nation budget, our goverment think it will be better to use nation budget to build railway in another island like Kalimantan (Borneo), Sulawesi or Papua.

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Robert46

Well, yeah it's quite disappointing to know that the plan for High Speed Rail was cancelled and will be converted to Medium Speed one.. even the government wouldn't be involved in the project as it will be handed over to the state-owned company to handle...

 

Indeed the distance is only about 150km (some say it is not compatible for high speed train) but the point is the government should consider the full connection of high speed train for the whole island, then they will see the urgency to start build the HSR... my thought if not possible to build a dedicated shinkansen line for Jakarta-Bandung, then we can choose the same way like Mini shinkansen did, but running in 160kph or 180kph if possible.. because I am sure we could have a coupled trains for some other lines with either Jakarta or Surabaya as the main busiest stations as business activities are most centered on those two areas... The only issues are we will need to build so many tunnels and also viaducts for smoother runs.. It's still possible, but of course will be time and massive budget consuming..

 

If I compared with the total time using airplane trip which in my estimation is about 4-5hours between Jakarta-Surabaya, then the high speed train trip can provide 3-4 hours which is very efficient...

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Robert46

In addition, if the government is looking for faster connectivity for business purpose, then providing high speed rails in some big islands is a must.. airplane is fast, but high speed train can provide some plus points.. just a note, trip from Jakarta to Bandung are also connected to eastern part of Java island.. so it is not a silly project in my opinion..

 

However, I thought it would be a waste of time, if this time we decided to use medium speed train and the new government in the next period decided to build full high speed in Java island, then we need to re-gauge or revise the work on Jakarta-Bandung line... :)

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JR 500系

That's the downside of tenders... Nothing is finalised until the signing, which means no money for all bidding parties. It sucks truly, especially coming from a field which requires a massive amount of tendering works that can easily go down the drain and not a cent was earned from massive studies...

 

Strangely, this sentence bewildered me:

Quote: The high-speed rail promised to cut the time from about three hours currently to 35 minutes.

 

The 150km requires 3 hours to get there now? That's like doing 50km/h on the highways? Even flights wouldn't take 3 hours? The distance from Sillypore to Kuala Lumpur is 354km and it takes around 4hours 21 mins to get there via road and about 45mins by flight, adding 1hr front and rear for checking in and checking out adding to a total of 3hours for flight. Unless of course the distance from Jakarta to Bandung is constantly congested on the highways...

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Robert46

 

 

Strangely, this sentence bewildered me:

Quote: The high-speed rail promised to cut the time from about three hours currently to 35 minutes.

 

The 150km requires 3 hours to get there now? That's like doing 50km/h on the highways? Even flights wouldn't take 3 hours?

 

Well, the current service says so.. :) because the track condition and topographic condition doesn't allow train to run faster than 120 kph.. in some few sections of the line there are indeed allowing for top speed on 100-120 kph, but on most part sections they are only on the average speed of 50-80 kph... flight took 30-45 minutes..

Edited by Robert46

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kvp

Many loco hauled services running on standard gauge normal tracks can go up to 230 km/h on rebuilt lines and 160 km/h on legacy lines with good track maintenance. A 230 km/h service would take 40 minutes, which can be considered a medium speed service, but can be built much cheaper than true high speed rail. On cape gauge with a tilting train, around 160-180 km/h can be reached without rebuilding everything, which would make the trip around 50-60 minutes long. True high speed rail at 35 minutes is almost double the speed and half the time and would make it competitive with air travel, but at a much higher cost. I think a medium speed standard gauge network could balance speed and cost and would make it usable both as a high speed intercity service and as part of a lower speed long distance and medium speed commuter network. The source and amount of money for the project is a big question as always and could pretty much determine the technology that can be used.

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trainsforever8

That was a huge waste of everybody's time. I can't believe this lol. Well, a limited express train could be better.

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velotrain

I wonder if China and Japan will bother to develop tenders for the MS line - perhaps wondering if Indonesia is even serious about that.

 

I'm surprised that they didn't question Jakarta's intent / logic for the HS line.

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HantuBlauLOL

You know the mind f-ing ability of our current government.

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katoftw

Either that or they are playing a poker game with the tenders for intent to pull the tendered amounts down enough to say yes.

 

It will go two ways.  They'll get there discount, or they'll never have a outside train maker want to deal with them again.

Edited by katoftw

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SuRoNeFu 25-501

Thank god that Indonesian government finally decided to scrap this project - yeah, the government has already reminded again that improvements and expansions on conventional lines are still FAR from better.

 

And it seems that this project would meet the same fate that happened with Sunda Strait Bridge (which is shelved due to the project's intention that against Mr. President's maritime-based programs)...

Edited by SuRoNeFu 25-501

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cteno4

interesting still alive but dead?

 

Japan Says China Wins Indonesia Rail Contract

Drawn-out process included two reversals by Indonesia in past month

http://www.wsj.com/articles/japan-says-china-wins-indonesia-rail-contract-1443537614

 

Japan loses Indonesian high-speed railway contract to China

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2015/09/29/business/japan-loses-indonesian-high-speed-railway-contract-china/#.VgsPybRwJLI

 

jeff

Edited by cteno4

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SuRoNeFu 25-501

interesting still alive but dead?

 

Japan Says China Wins Indonesia Rail Contract

Drawn-out process included two reversals by Indonesia in past month

http://www.wsj.com/articles/japan-says-china-wins-indonesia-rail-contract-1443537614

 

Japan loses Indonesian high-speed railway contract to China

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2015/09/29/business/japan-loses-indonesian-high-speed-railway-contract-china/#.VgsPybRwJLI

 

jeff

IMHO, I can't imagine what happened if the line is really built and opened to service, because the conventional line still faces lots of problems, which urgently requiring large amount of work to solve the problem.

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cteno4

Not unusual for politicians to be looking at future things rather than dealing with the issues currently at hand!

 

Jeff

 

IMHO, I can't imagine what happened if the line is really built and opened to service, because the conventional line still faces lots of problems, which urgently requiring large amount of work to solve the problem.

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HantuBlauLOL

Our current government is like "there is always a way for china."

 

I wont speak about politic here, but there are so many about it on the internet. In Indonesian language..

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bikkuri bahn

The battle to secure a high-speed railway contract with Indonesia ended in victory for China, signaling its rise as Japan's rival in infrastructure exports, which the Japanese government upholds as a pillar of its economic growth strategy.

 

News that the Indonesian government had chosen China over Japan -- the latter of which had previously been leading in the fight for Jakarta's heart -- sent shockwaves through the Japanese government. While Japan had begun surveys and research on a possible railway project in Indonesia in 2011, China announced its plans just this past March. Moreover, Japan offered a construction period of four years and a trial operation period of two, while China only offered a three-year construction period.

 

http://mainichi.jp/english/english/perspectives/news/20150930p2a00m0na001000c.html

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SuRoNeFu 25-501

And yeah, politicians are always causing annoyance. Well, let's pull this topic back to the rails, before we suffer worse problem...

 

Not unusual for politicians to be looking at future things rather than dealing with the issues currently at hand!

 

Jeff

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HantuBlauLOL

Anyway on the other side, sharyo just won a contract for MRT trainsets.

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