Cheapest way to program train addresses (diy or commercial)

[Kkxzd]

TL;DR I'm now being able to control my trains with a computer but have no equipment to program train addresses (PT). What's the cheapest way of doing so? preferably DIY.

 

Full post:

I started on this hobby not long ago and very soon I found my interest in automating everything I can, or better say, the possibility of doing so, since I've done nothing yet.

 

So I got into this DCC world and I must say, even being someone that works in a highly technical field, it's been a long time since I've crossed such a complicated to understand set of technologies. I had to do a lot of reading to really understand how things work, and was specially confused by the amount of terms only to find out that there are 20 - 30 different of achieving the same, and each of them incompatible with the other one. Quite frustrating. Which doesn't help in light of wanting to select a system to do DCC, and this applies to commercial and DIY solutions. I have the feeling that any thing I choose will lock me in to a set of technologies from which it will be hard to move away from in the future, without a good deal of investment of time and money.

 

Anyway, I got to a point where I got some of the things I wanted to achieve done:

0. Decided to use rocrail to control my layout, although I may go with JMRI eventually

1. Controlled trains with a raspberry PI, DCC232 and a custom booster using an H-Bridge, works quite well but not with the onboard UART

2. Controlled trains with a raspberry PI, dccpi (and python) and custom booster. Nice to play with but doesn't work as well as I'd like and doesn't do much more than that. But it helped me confirm I was doing some of my circuity the right way.

3. Setup SRCPd to try to do the same and although I'm getting a signal, rocrail seems very unstable with it. Need to do more testing

 

All this was interesting because I could try DCC spending less than $40 (and a weekend of my time :), but if I were worried about my time I better get away from this hobby)

 

Now some open questions I have and hope someone with more experience may clear up or help me find the right path:

1. Since I found the methods of controlling I'm using cannot really program the trains, what would you recommend to be able to do so? Best I have for the moment is: NCE power cab starter kit or Digitrax zephyr xtra starter set for commercial or openDCC system for diy (prefer diy solutions)

2. Anyone with experience with openDCC? documents in the page are kind of old (last updated) and wonder how the support might be like

3. What's the best system (commercial or diy) that will allow me to use either JMRI or rocrail? Would be nice if what I choose is not tied to the software I use.

4. The amount of systems (command stations) and protocols that JMRI and rocrail support is impressive, and that makes it hard to choose one, since I don't know how good is support for each one. Is the some of them that are best than others? or some of them that is better to stay away from?

 

For the moment I'm only thinking about controlling trains and setting up sensors, although some insight in what provides best expandability for the future is appreciated.

 

[kvp]

If you can generate and emit a DCC movement command, then you can generate a DCC program command too. If you check the DCC protocol description, the programming can be done by turning on the DCC signal, emitting a few resets, then a direct register programming command a few times and then turning off the signal. The only trick is that the number of stop bits between the DCC packets have to be increased to give more time to the decoders. This way you can program any register and the loco will move a bit if successful. This movement is the programming feedback, which should be visible. Imho that's all, just be careful to remove every other locomotive from the layout, otherwise you are going to program all of them at the same time. For register maps, check the instruction manuals of your decoders.

 

ps: This is what i use with my still under developement Arduino DCC central. (the lack of time keeps me from finishing the Loconet interface, so it only works with the 4 analog throttles, which i only assembled one and a half) The programming in my case is done through the console (along with locomotive dispatch) and the connected L293D driver chip emits the Loconet Rail+/- signals, that are boosted by a home made copy of a Fremo Spax booster (also still under developement as one part tend to overheat)

[railzilla]

Hello,

 

You should look at the MERG CBUS system. MERG (Model Electronic Railway Group) has developet it own DCC System using a CAN bus teh system is called CBUS and is well tought. MERG provides also many other kits for model railway electric. The kits are very well made.The use THT parts which are easy to solder. You get all the necessary parts in the kit and a good instruction. You only can get the kits if you are member but IMHO its worth at the end you save a lot. 

Merg CBUS is supportet by Rocrail and JMRI. Rocrail(GCA) also has its own CBUS hardware. Command station, USB, Ethernet and Loconet interfaces are available which makes integration of other parts easy.

[Kkxzd]

kvp that's super interesting, I haven't actually thought about doing it myself and thought that to program I needed bidirectional communication, due to the fact that the systems that didn't have it didn't support programming either, not due to the fact of having looked at the spec. Having looked at the spec, it seems very feasible to write something to be able to program the locos, maybe I'll do an extension to DCCPI over the weekend.

 

Thanks for the tip railzilla, I'll take a look and consider this, not sure how much I'll be able to find out about it without being a member, but we'll see.

[railzilla]

There is enough information available to give you some idea. You also can find the price for the cost which includes PCB and everything you need. No need to search for component in different places

 

http://www.merg.org.uk/merg_resources/cbus.php

http://www.merg.org.uk/publicwiki/doku.php?id=cbus:downloads

[Kkxzd]

kvp, that was a great insight, I've spent some time yesterday with dccpi source code and I successfully modified it so that I could save addresses into trains. So now I can save addresses and control trains in a reliable way. Total cost of my DCC system so far: about 30 dollars (I had the PI)

 

Next step would be to investigate occupancy detectors and turnouts decoders.

[kvp]

You are welcome! For DCC occupancy detectors, you can either use magnetically coupled or diode based ones. I would say the diode based, optocoupled ones are the easiest to make and the output is the same as from any Tomix TCS sensor or manual pushbutton.

[aahmrr]

kvp, that was a great insight, I've spent some time yesterday with dccpi source code and I successfully modified it so that I could save addresses into trains. So now I can save addresses and control trains in a reliable way. Total cost of my DCC system so far: about 30 dollars (I had the PI)

 

Next step would be to investigate occupancy detectors and turnouts decoders.

 

Any chance you could publish your modifications to dccpi, I have been looking into dccpi myself for the last few days and wanted to do exactly the same (program decoders), but I am lazy and would prefer to use your code than modify it myself :)

[Dani]

Hello,

 

Just to have another point of view, that's my solution (not better, not worst). It's in between a commercial and a DIY solution:

 

 

 

For me was clear to use a Loconet Bus due to the high availability of different modules and accessories from a lot of builders, as well as DIY boards.

I'm using an Intellibox command station (in Europe is easier to acquire than Digitrax). For feedback and servo management I use GCA boards that I solder myself, it's official hardware from Rocrail.

For special things like station announcements, Faller mine automation (with smoke, lights, motor and sound), ambient illumination (using weather funtion in Rocrail) or any other special thing I use Arduino and create this kind of Loconet modules myself.

 

From Rocrail I'm able to program both loco decoders and Loconet modules (commercial and self made) through LNCV, so I no longer use or need JMRI or any other software.

 

Cheers,

Dani

[kvp]

You absolutely don't need the intellibox. Also you can use an USB (or the old serial) loconet interface and separate boosters. It's much cheaper and easier to manage.

 

Loconet has a shared cable for the loconet serial communication (4 inner wires) and the DCC signal (2 outer wires). This signal is data only, so should not be used to drive the trains directly, but adding dumb booster(s) is easy. For turnouts and signals i would use loconet decoders that plug directly into the loconet cable and a separate DC supply, like the boosters. This allows mixed use turnout/signal/lighting/feedback decoders right on the loconet bus and leave the DCC protocol for the trains only. (this allows better response and more trains) Also the turnouts can be thrown from a tablet or a loconet based physical switch board too. Wired throttles can be added too.

 

So: tablet/phone with wifi - PC - USB loconet interface - loconet decoders (turnout/signal/lighting/feedback) + wired throttles/switchboards + DCC boosters - trains

[E6系]

Hello,

 

I agree with Mr kvp.  If you are using computer then why use Intellibox?

[Dani]

Hello,

 

I agree with Mr kvp.  If you are using computer then why use Intellibox?

 

I also agree with you, Intellibox is not strictly needed and there are many better options (considering the "budget" variable). With a much simple and cheaper booster you can also run trains. But let me tell you my personal reasons for having an Intellibox Basic:

 

When I began with digital systems, I knew nothing about all the different systems there were and I wasn't self-confident enough to began with a DIY solution. Of course every modeller who you talk to recommends a different solution (normally his solution), which is 100% suitable for him but may be not for your purposes. Finally I thought the easier and most "comfortable" way of beginning and learning would be with an "all-in-one" simple commercial solution not very expensive but with possibilities to expand. Also Loconet was a good choice in my mind to do not be tied to just one builder or just one kind of modules. And I bought an Intellibox basic, one Uhlenbrock feedback module and one Uhlenbrock outputs module. I started learning with that connected to an oval shaped test track with two switches, and finally understood all those things about blocks, sensors, CV, LNCV, Loconet, DCC,...... 

 

I'm still happy of my decision. Having my first contact with digital systems building my own hardware, installing, configuring and learning how to use rail road control software.... too tough for me on that time.

 

Later I sold my Uhlenbrock modules but I kept my Intellibox, and I will have it always connected because managing your trains with a "real" throttle knob from the middle of your layout and real buttons, instead of "virtual" ones in a screen is much more comfortable. You have the touch of the controls and don't need to look at the screen to be sure where your finger points. I prefer to be looking at my layout that at the screen representing my layout. And some times, having only a few minutes to play with my trains, I don't want to waste it turning on and off the computer or tablet. From my Intellibox Basic I can manage trains and switches immediately just switching on the current. Normally I use the software to run trains in automatic or semi-automatic mode, and Intellibox to drive one or two manually at the same time. Some friends of mine went for a cheaper solution buying an IBCom (just booster, no throttle), and ended up buying a Digitrax hand throttle because of that.

 

Having half of my layout completed, the command station was running out of power to manage all the modules installed (it has only 500mA to feed the Loconet line). Then I added a GCA185 (loconet booster and Ethernet locobuffer) delivering 3 Amp to feed the modules. I also like much more the DB9 connector (with the extra power line added to Loconet signals) than the RJ12 connector. Now most of my Loconet modules are GCA ones, combined with a pair of Uhlenbrock lighting modules (for special effects) and Arduino + Loconet shield (for sounds, announcements and special automations).

 

What I normally suggest is: 

Start just with Intellibox Basic + loconet decoders (turnout/signal/lighting/feedback). You only need that, track and trains. And go step by step adding later the PC software, tablet, DIY modules, Arduino and self programmed modules, ......

 

This solution fits perfect for me, the missing skills I had, and my way of using and having fun with my layout. Sure is not the best for others with different budgets (bigger or lower), different skills, other purposes or other ways of enjoying a layout.

 

PS- Forgive me if my English is not fluent or sound too rude, I did my best to express my opinion in the most humble way

 

Cheers,

 

Dani

Edited September 9, 2015 by Dani

[kvp]

If you want physical controls, then a PC, an USB loconet interface, a booster and a wired throttle (the most simple ones are called fred). Then add everything else later. The graphical interface on the PC is much nicer than using the rather expensive and hard to figure out intellibox (if you are not fan of 1980ies vcr-s, you won't like its lcd interface). Also you won't run out of power when you have more than 3 locomotives. If you want to avoid the PC, then get a Z21 and that pretty much does everything out of the box. (it's not much more expensive than an intellibox but works with tablets and phones out of the box and has a nice graphical user interface)

 

For a really cheap system i would still say: PC with free software, cheap loconet adapter and a cheap and dumb booster. This is pretty much all that is needed for most DCC users and it can even control track power based turnout decoders (the small ones that can be built into roadbed turnouts, like kato-s). Which are great for floor running temporary DCC layouts. Not much to cable either as the only connections would be between the pc/laptop and the booster (through the usb adapter), then the 2 wires straight into the tracks and that's all.

[Dani]

If you want physical controls, then a PC, an USB loconet interface, a booster and a wired throttle (the most simple ones are called fred). Then add everything else later. The graphical interface on the PC is much nicer than using the rather expensive and hard to figure out intellibox (if you are not fan of 1980ies vcr-s, you won't like its lcd interface). Also you won't run out of power when you have more than 3 locomotives. If you want to avoid the PC, then get a Z21 and that pretty much does everything out of the box. (it's not much more expensive than an intellibox but works with tablets and phones out of the box and has a nice graphical user interface)

 

For a really cheap system i would still say: PC with free software, cheap loconet adapter and a cheap and dumb booster. This is pretty much all that is needed for most DCC users and it can even control track power based turnout decoders (the small ones that can be built into roadbed turnouts, like kato-s). Which are great for floor running temporary DCC layouts. Not much to cable either as the only connections would be between the pc/laptop and the booster (through the usb adapter), then the 2 wires straight into the tracks and that's all.

 

Right, for the cheapest (but more complicated) a DIY solution (Rocrail, USB loconet interface, booster and wired throttle). Many elements, many connections and configurations. Anyway, I would like to see a budget for the USB, booster and wired throttle to check if it is really cheaper than an Intellibox basic or Digitrax DCS51. May be is not so cheap at the end, and with both Digitrax or Uhlenbrock is really an out-of-the-box expandable solution.

 

Z21 is a command station with no throttle and no buttons, 45% more expensive than Intellibox Basic (checking prices in the same shop). And even if it be the same price, for me is not "out of the box" when you have to plug the Z21 "black box", an internet router (or setup yours), take a tablet, install and setup the software, and then you can start move your first train. And buying a Z21 plus a wired throttle doubles the price ending up with the same 1980s lcd screen. And with both systems you can use the PC and a tablet in the same way. So I don't see the advantage, take the Uhlenbrock or Digitrax, Rocrail and you can use also the tablet, pc or smartphone having the extra of the throttles (intellibox basic has two of them, not only one).

 

Kkxzd, now you have different proposals (DIY, Intellibox, Digitrax, Z21), different budgets and different opinions. There is no perfect solution and each one has pros and cons. All of them will let you program your trains as all of them can be connected to Rocrail, JMRI, WinDigipet and others. Also all of them can use Loconet bus allowing you to use a wide range of different modules. And you can add DIY parts also to any of the above solutions. I hope this discussion answered your doubts and reduced the possible options for a better election that must fit you and no one else.

 

Cheers,

Dani

[kvp]

The cheapest fred (fremo basic walkaround) was 16 euro when i bought one this spring. No lcd, it's just 6 buttons, a direction switch and a knob (and a 1 usd pic inside) in a throttle shaped plastic box. Train dispatches are sent from the station. This means selecting a throttle from the plugged in ones, then clicking on the photo/number of the lok and it's on the throttle. A usb interface is around 30 euros while a 3A fremo spax booster is 25. You'll need an adapter too, like an old 18-20V laptop charger or similar. Plus 2 six wire phone cables for the loconet bus. (get a curled one for the throttle it's more flexible) Software is free and the loconet is plug and play. The 3A limit will be way more than the 0.5A of the intellibox and the pc doesn't have loco or accessory number limits and no tiny lcd or punching numbers on a keypad. Any programming can be done on the main and with preset profiles from loco description files. (preferably off the internet or fellow local club members who know what they are doing)

[Dani]

Thanks for your last info, now it's even clearer which is the cheapest and more expensive solutions, which ones are just to run trains or have more features, which ones are out of the box or need the connection of different elements, which ones need the support of a PC or Tablet with software and for which ones this is just something optional.... but that's the great thing in digital systems, there is always a solution that fits different ambitions and budgets. On the other hand, is precisely what makes so difficult the choice.

 

The 3A limit will be way more than the 0.5A of the intellibox and the pc doesn't have loco or accessory number limits and no tiny lcd or punching numbers on a keypad. Any programming can be done on the main and with preset profiles from loco description files. (preferably off the internet or fellow local club members who know what they are doing)

 

So I was not writing to add something more to the discussion, clear enough. It's just to clarify a misunderstanding: The limitation of 0,5Amp of Intellibox is just in the Loconet interface as I wrote, and this has nothing to do with the power to the rails and DCC. I've had more than 40 locomotives on the rails (with lights on and the decoder running), 10 of them moving at the same time. And of course you can avoid the limit in the bus (nothing to do with DCC and rails) using Loconet modules with independent power feed. But I prefer things to be plug and play, and have the minimum sockets and power line cables under the layout.

 

Cheers,

Dani

[inobu]

The cheapest all around solution is Digitrax Zephyr with free JMRI to get you started.

 

• Plug and play
  • Manual controll
  • Manual programming
  • Standardized
• JMRI Plug and Play
  • Utilizes left over PC and Wireless devices
  • Computer Control
  • Wireless
  • Allow Design switch and control panel

It is more practical to have a zephyr and M1 Kato Starter kit than to go through the DIY pain. I understand the "I did it myself" achievement but what about the progress on the over all hobby. I think one has to evaluate the over all objective and create the plan to get there in a timely manner. Having the cheapest plan that takes you 3 years to achieve may not be the cheapest route based on time spent.

 

Inobu

[kvp]

 

The limitation of 0,5Amp of Intellibox is just in the Loconet interface as I wrote, and this has nothing to do with the power to the rails and DCC.

Actually there is a power limit on the DCC rail out interface and that is not much larger than the loconet power, which is provided by the DCC signal in the two outermost wires of loconet cable. Of course the best solution is to have self powered loconet devices and a separate bus for loconet accessories, a different one for the boosters and drive all dcc based (non loconet) accessories through a dedicated (non traction) booster. That is for large layouts. For small ones, i think a single booster and a loconet adapter is enough as long as the adapter can drive the booster and one or two walkaround throttles and all accessories (like turnout decoders) are not loconet but DCC based. This is more than enough for temporary and children's play layouts.

 

 

Digitrax Zephyr with free JMRI to get you started.

 

A digitrax USB adapter and a cheap digitrax (loconet) booster gives you the same results and it's also cheap. Except you don't have to fight the single line numerical user interface. JMRI works fine with both, so i recommend it.

 

ps: For kids, it's possible to have dedicated walkaround throttles permanently assigned to each locomotive, so they know that each physical controller always controls the same locomotive. Since multiple controllers can be plugged into the loconet bus at the same time, it's possible to limit the number of active trains by providing a limited number of sockets. There are dedicated turnout control boxes too, so it's possible to provide a track diagram based phyisical switchboard for changing turnouts and signals with no physical access to the main computer and/or dcc center.

 

Also in Europe you can find really cheap and quite unreliable swiss army knife style handheld roco controllers/boosters/centers/turnout controllers that are good for up to 3 trains and a dozen dcc based turnouts, but incompatible with pretty much everything else. (the plug only looks like loconet, but it's not!) The external transformer is a nice reliable piece though. They are packaged with startsets and most people try to get rid of them as soon as they do anything more serious than running a start set or two, so it's easy to pick one up used. (check first if it's working or not)

[Dani]

Actually there is a power limit on the DCC rail out interface and that is not much larger than the loconet power, which is provided by the DCC signal in the two outermost wires of loconet cable. 

 

Sorry again, being this a public forum all opinions have my maximum respect, but you cannot be mistaken about the facts you write, even more if you use them to support your opinion. Just take an Intellibox Basic manual, go to page 14 and will find the technical specifications:

 

Maximum current load

3 A to the rails

0.2 A to LocoNet B output

0.5 A to LocoNet T output

All outputs have short circuit protection. 

 

So it has 3Amp for running trains as Digitrax Zephyr or your proposed Fremo solution. Rail power has nothing to do with bus power, doesn't matter you have the same signal in there.

 

Cheers,

Dani

[kvp]

My practical experience is that the intellibox was constantly tripped by the same loop controller that the fremo spax can handle without trouble, but you are absolutely right about the specs. (i still think that an ib is still an expensive booster if you have a computer)