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bikkuri bahn

Tokyo area railway lines with best/worst reputations

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bikkuri bahn

An internet survey conducted last month of 703 adults living in the Tokyo Metropolitan area yielded these results(selected reasons follow):

Best 3

1. Yamanote Line                        (convenient, the core of the transport network)

2. Tokyu Toyoko Line                  (runs through nice neighborhoods, passengers are fashionable)

3. Tokyu Den-en Toshi Line        (same as above)

 

Worst 3

1. JR Saikyo Line                        (full of chikan)

2. JR Keihin Tohoku Line            (dirty image)

3. JR Joban Line                         (full of drunks, delinquents from the boondocks i.e Chiba, Ibaraki)

 

http://bizmakoto.jp/makoto/articles/1505/26/news080.html

Edited by bikkuri bahn

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HantuBlauLOL

Chikan?

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Kabutoni

Splendid! The Den'entoshi is one of my favourite lines in the neighbourhood, but I hear it can be crazy full in the rush hour (300%). It's not a big surprise to have Tōkyū on top of the list, since most travelers on those trains either live in houses built on land owned by Tōkyū, work for Tōkyū or have some other financial relation with Tōkyū. Usually they are financially pretty well off as well, plus Tōkyū also has some good contacts with fashion shops. ;)

 

Chikan?

 

Gropers, sexual assault, all those things...

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Guest keio6000

An internet survey conducted last month of 703 adults living in the Tokyo Metropolitan area yielded these results(selected reasons follow):

Best 3

2. Tokyu Toyoko Line                  (runs through nice neighborhoods, passengers are fashionable)

 

what classist rubbish is this?

 

anyway, the "study" is obviously bullshit (so many things it obviously doesn't control for). but at least we all know where to go for a good grope now.

Edited by keio6000

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JR 500系

Sings: "Tokyo-Kanda-Akihabara-Okachimachi-Ueno-Uitsudani...

 

The Yamanote is indeed the winner. Almost all foreigners know about the Yamanote line. It has got to be the most known line in Tokyo...

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Kabutoni

what classist rubbish is this?

 

Somebody got very hurt in the feelings here xD

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Guest keio6000

Somebody got very hurt in the feelings here xD

 

as an oxbridgeyalehaaavard snob, i'm quite sensitive to the little people ;)

 

but seriously, if those kind of survey results were posted here in britain, the results would be eviscerated.

 

that said, this also smells like tokyu vote stuffing and/or the 'survey' being asked at, say, shibuya and, say, shinkoyasu or some other keihin tohoku place condemned to watch faster trains go by endlessly.

Edited by keio6000

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ozman2009

How many people travel on Tokyo trains every day? 703 respondents makes for a VERY small sample!

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Guest keio6000

How many people travel on Tokyo trains every day? 703 respondents makes for a VERY small sample!

 

well, the sample size would be good if the number of responses was limited.  however, with the number of possible lines and the selection bias (i doubt they randomly chose people from all places in tokyo - more likely somebody stood with a clipboard *somewhere*, which is inherently problematic), i think it's safe to say that this survey won't be appearing in the Annual Review of Sociology any time soon.

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Kabutoni

Very true. I once saw a research conducted that concluded that 20% of Japanese university students had suicidal tendencies. Only about 100 students from some unimportant university were surveyed.

 

Still: Tōkyū ftw!

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bikkuri bahn

It's most definitely not intended as a serious survey, more like a random sampling.  It does reflect longstanding stereotypes people in Tokyo hold about the various lines though.  The Den-en Toshi Line does run through some nice places to live, but I would not like to commute on it as Toni also said (rush hour sometimes sees the "dango unten" where you can see the tail end of the train in front of you at the next station (loading up its pax), while the ATC halts your train a few hundred meters short).

 

From personal experience, I would rate the Keihin Tohoku Line the worst, for the monja-making drunks that frequent the first and last trains of the day.  They are called "gerorists", a portmanteau of "gero" (puke) and "terrorist".

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Densha

I didn't know about the term "dango unten" (ダンゴ運転), but searching for it on youtube gives some amazing results:

 

Edited by Densha

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JR 500系

Oh wow! The station staff never gets a break from this! And there is definitely no need for rushing to get on board the trains!

 

Here's one from JR East, Yamanote line (The top reputation line)

 

 

We do see far lesser station staff than the Keio station...

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katoftw

Go the crush!

 

Edited by katoftw

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Sacto1985

It's not hard to figure out why the JR East Saikyo Line has such a bad reputation. This video by YouTube member naha478 shows just how crowded these trains can get during the morning rush, in this case at Akabane Station:

 

 

It should be noted this used to be even worse, but now that the Tokyo Metro Fukutoshin Line has through service from the Seibu Shinjuku Line and Tobu Tojo Line, there is now a viable alternative to the Saikyo Line.

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railsquid

Oh wow! The station staff never gets a break from this! And there is definitely no need for rushing to get on board the trains!

 

Every time I see someone rush onto a Yamanote line train just as the doors are closing, I feel like going up to them and whispering an insider secret... "there'll be another train coming in a couple of minutes". Damn, now I've given it away...

 

Here's one from JR East, Yamanote line (The top reputation line)

 

 

We do see far lesser station staff than the Keio station...

 

 

 

Clearly not the rush-hour.

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railsquid

Go the crush!

 

 

To be fair this is the situation right after a service suspension.

 

I tried this whole "commuting at peak hours in Tokyo" thing once for about 10 months and decided I didn't like it.

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kvp

Line specific trains and platform doors makes it hard to move rolling stock around for services where there is a need. In the past it was a bit easier as standard JNR stock could be added to any line. In this case having spare trains with a lot of 6 door cattle cars parked along the line with station and office staff acting as standby drivers could help to solve temporary capacity problems.

 

For example, in Budapest it's perfectly normal to see rerouted trams or buses to compensate for service disruptions or temporary high loads. The grand boulvard lines (4-6) operating with 6 car low floor units usually see old high floor trams added to increase capacity, sometimes in basic 3 car or coupled 6 car formations. Just ignore the stopping and door markers on the platforms. Also in case of metro line 2 disruptions, buses are taken from its various feeding lines (usually every 2nd one) and rerouted to metro replacement service. There are standby trams and buses (usually end of life sets still in operating condition) that can be used for any replacement purpose by changing the text on their displays or by adding a piece of paper to their windshields with the number of the service. Spare drivers are station, office and maintenance staff with valid driver's licenses for at least one of the vehicle types.

 

Btw. I see a lot of station staff on most videos. Why is it that in Japan you still see so many people doing everything by hand? For crowded platforms and high passenger loads, i would assume it would enough if the driver told the passengers what to do through the pa system. (like the next train is right behind this one or stop getting on, the train is departing now, etc.)

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railsquid
Btw. I see a lot of station staff on most videos. Why is it that in Japan you still see so many people doing everything by hand? For crowded platforms and high passenger loads, i would assume it would enough if the driver told the passengers what to do through the pa system. (like the next train is right behind this one or stop getting on, the train is departing now, etc.)

 

Driver-only operation at overcrowded rush-hour platforms without platform doors ... nope, can't see what might go wrong there...

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bikkuri bahn

You obviously have never experienced these conditions firsthand. First of all, the lines are running at capacity- there is no room to add extra trains when they are already running at 2min headways. The staff are needed to speed the loading of trains to reduce dwell time, such as gently pushing in protruding pieces of clothings and limbs, etc. Even with rule following, orderly Japanese, extra help is necessary to keep the trains running on time.

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Kabutoni

Trains aren't easily interchangeable from one commuter line to another. I don't see a problem with that. Japanese railways also don't see a problem with that. If all trains would be easily interchangeable, all lines would have to be connected with each other at many points, with many points, which require maintenance, which costs a lot of money.

 

Also, if all lines were to be connected everywhere, they would be no smooth flow of trains, as all lines would be influencing each other. This is the main reason why Japanese railways have separate tracks for almost every line (disregarding certain through services, like the Shonan-Shinjuku line and Tokyo-Ueno line). And no, JNR also had line specific trains, since JNR also realised this problem soon enough.

 

In short, keep all lines separated and you will get a guaranteed smooth flow of traffic, regardless of one or two mishaps on another line.

 

The Dutch railways are also rapidly incorporating a similar system in the heavy traffic areas in the west of the country by separating local and express traffic on quadruple (and up) tracks.

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Densha

The Dutch railways are also rapidly incorporating a similar system in the heavy traffic areas in the west of the country by separating local and express traffic on quadruple (and up) tracks.

Which packed out not very well... if a broken train is blocking traffic in Utrecht, no trains can run between Amsterdam - Den Bosch now because of this. That's an almost 100km stretch being disrupted because they can't change tracks because they removed almost all switches. It might work for very dense commuter traffic, but doesn't for longer distance intercity traffic.

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Kabutoni

Which packed out not very well... if a broken train is blocking traffic in Utrecht, no trains can run between Amsterdam - Den Bosch now because of this. That's an almost 100km stretch being disrupted because they can't change tracks because they removed almost all switches. It might work for very dense commuter traffic, but doesn't for longer distance intercity traffic.

 

The lines work fine, but the crossing stations can't deal with the new system. It's a bit like upgrading your tracks in a game like Transport Tycoon and forgetting all about your station layouts, though this is done with millions and millions of tax money, which again is a bit like cheating.

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Densha

I don't know. I regularly travel through Utrecht and the rail infrastructure around and in the station is being changed enormously. The main problem I think lies in the fact that there are no facilities to head back once an incident blocking the track occurs. Looking at the planned rail layout in Utrecht (click) this is impossible without crossing local commuter (Sprinter) corridors that run on inner tracks while the intercities run on outer tracks. Looking at the above Japanese 2-min frequency it should be possible, but well... it's the Netherlands after all. What do you think would be the solution?

Edited by Densha

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kvp

The idea of separated lines for every service is good, but having interconnections for stock movement here and there would not be a problem. The idea is to keep the current system and add reserve trains on reserve tracks, that could go onto any line. If the turnouts are installed to be run over from the frog direction and placed around station entry or exit points (they can even have moving frogs), then normal high speed operations are not affected, but these crossovers can be used if there is need. Even a manually operated, locked crossover can help in case of disruption. Having backup trains is always a good idea. If an operator doesn't want to keep dedicated backups for every line, then it's possible to have a backup pool with older but still working sets.

 

The solution for the Utrecht situation would be either to provide crossing possibility over the local tracks or the possibility to use the local and the ic tracks for both services. This would slow down the ic traffic to the speed of the local traffic, but only on the one or two station segment where there is a problem. Then the ic-s could return to the fast tracks. The same goes in reverse, mainly the commuters could use the ic tracks if needed. The extra infrastructure is just a few crossovers that could be simple manually operated locked turnouts used only in case of problems.

 

For the japanese situation, i think the reason for the completly separated tracks is partially the fact that there are different companies running next to each other and the truth that it's much cheaper and simplier to just shut down a whole line in both directions when there is a problem anywhere on the line, than to build an infrastructure and train the various crews to handle the problems on the fly. Having a double track line with no turnouts except at the terminals is easy to operate safely and it's either running as a simple conveyor belt or not running at all. Simple, cheaper and safer, yes. Very customer unfriendly when there is a problem and everything stops, also yes.

 

The fact that overcrowded lines still exist and the companies are very unwilling to change capacity based on demand instead of yearly plans means the system is not as flexible as it should be. But since people in Japan accept the situation, there is really no incentive to change this rigid planning. Personally i'm more used to the practice that an overcrowded line usually means a few extra cars or a few extra trains pop up in the schedule when needed.

 

ps: I could only find a german wikipedia entry about these trains: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entlastungszug

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